Do you believe this?

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by sid_16, Jun 13, 2013.

  1. sid_16

    sid_16 MDL Giveaway Organiser

    Oct 15, 2011
    2,212
    3,720
    90
    Lets say that you have a scenario like the one below. A woman dressed in that way goes to a public place and is later raped. Assume, there are no extraneous details to confuse the matter, given just these facts, to what degree do you believe the woman is at fault?

    Source

    Is she completely without fault, legally?!? But she would regret dressing that way.!!!!

    Any thought?
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  2. sid_16

    sid_16 MDL Giveaway Organiser

    Oct 15, 2011
    2,212
    3,720
    90
    No reply?!?
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  3. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

    Feb 13, 2011
    4,668
    4,254
    150
    I'll answer your question with a question. If I open a jewelry store and display the jewelry out in the open, does it give people the right to come rob me ?
     
  4. sid_16

    sid_16 MDL Giveaway Organiser

    Oct 15, 2011
    2,212
    3,720
    90
    Good analogy, but perhaps you didn't understand my point correctly. Is it legal to visibly not wear underwear? Isn't that in violation of decency laws or something? And same goes with your analogy, if you can't "well guard" your jewelery shop and you're robbed, is it right to say that people are gone mad and forgot the moral values and robbed my shop?

    Sometimes I find it difficult to articulate that just because I believe the man should take 100% of the blame rape is still rape, regardless of what the woman wears, it doesn't mean that I think the woman has zero responsibility for her choices. She herself made a stupid decision that put her at risk and that responsibility shouldn't be ignored.

    Just like if you were to disply the jewelery in open without any strict security . I wouldn't say you deserved to get robbed, nor would I say the robber should be punished any less. But I would still think that you're responsible for the silly choices you made 'open a jewelry store and display the jewelry out in the open without any security' which caused you to end up being robbed.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  5. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

    Feb 13, 2011
    4,668
    4,254
    150
    If you are talking about public nudity then yes that is a crime in some places, but she had on clothes. I think it's irrelevant if she had on clothes or not. You have to be especially screwed up to go out and abduct someone to begin with, that alone requires jail time !
     
  6. sid_16

    sid_16 MDL Giveaway Organiser

    Oct 15, 2011
    2,212
    3,720
    90
    I don't disagree but if you want to argue clothing has no affect on rape rates, fine and none seems to have data there. What I'm saying is that the woman had a legal or ethical obligation to dress in a specific manner. However, her actions may have directly impacted the situation, and there doesn't seem to be a good way to interpret that as anything other than "fault" in this context.

    Please consider an alternative example, a conservatively (or well clad) dressed woman can take two paths on her walk to work/home. Path X is well lit, well patrolled by law enforcement, and densely populated.

    Path Y is dark, full of alleys, and contains numerous convicted sex offenders of which this hypothetical woman is aware.

    She walks down path Y, and gets raped. I would consider this situation analogous - She did nothing ethically or legally wrong, but her decision led at least partially to the result. The rapist should be castrated and locked away for the rest of his life, but the woman's choices impacted the outcome - That is fault, to my ears.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  7. Yen

    Yen Admin
    Staff Member

    May 6, 2007
    10,975
    10,547
    340
    #7 Yen, Jun 20, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2013
    Any own decisions have an influence on future events. So what do you actually mean with responsibility?
    Are you sure you don't mean she should in fact share the blame?



    Bold: You cannot know. Your example is of theoretical value only (attributes of way X and Y). What would have happened if she had chosen way X? Would she get raped anyway, because it is her 'destiny'?
    Or would the rape happen at any case (next woman who walks along way Y will get raped)? And what is the 'original' outcome you need to know to determine an impact, a change.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  8. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

    Feb 13, 2011
    4,668
    4,254
    150
    That X and Y situation is present in many places. Some areas are less desirable than others and you have to take precautions. However that doesn't mean it's ok if someone gets robbed or raped when walking in the wrong place. No place should be the wrong place to begin with ! Also the person doing the robbery or raping is automatically wrong I cannot see how on earth they can in anyway be justified ! The decision in the case you posted above is seriously messed up and can lead to dangerous precedents.
     
  9. sid_16

    sid_16 MDL Giveaway Organiser

    Oct 15, 2011
    2,212
    3,720
    90
    While we're animals (in the sense) we also try not to let our bad/ dark sides control us too much. Do we not like to see an attractive woman in a miniskirt? Many of us do like, you may agree or not that doesn't matter. Does it give us the right to give in to some of our primitive urges? Of course not, not in a civilized society. We're better than that. That is the responsibility in my opinion.

    I didn't say that in any of my post she should be blamed but her decision 'of choosing not to wear an underwear' may led to rape.

    We are talking about the later not the prior and I don't believe in destiny.
    I think you see the actions of other people as within their control, and I see the actions of other people as entirely determined by outside factors. That's all.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  10. sid_16

    sid_16 MDL Giveaway Organiser

    Oct 15, 2011
    2,212
    3,720
    90
    I didn't try to justify that hypothetical situation but presented as an analogy for this discussion. A person who fails to take reasonable precautions is not at fault in any way for the actions of criminals. But a person who fails to take reasonable precautions may very rightly be viewed as an idiot or say without blame..... but still dumb.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  11. redroad

    redroad MDL Guru

    Dec 2, 2011
    5,346
    6,029
    180
    Taking something that you know is not yours points to a deeper issue .. The women has no fault here .. A society will only be as good as the laws it legislates and has the ability to uphold
     
  12. Yen

    Yen Admin
    Staff Member

    May 6, 2007
    10,975
    10,547
    340
    I actually meant what is the responsibility of the woman. We like attractive women in a miniskirt, but not to wear underwear is irresponsible because it may lead to rape? Where is the 'limit' ?



    I still cannot see the difference. By saying that she is not 100% guiltless in your eyes. And if not then I can also say leaving the house may lead to rape.

    IMO each individual is responsible for whatever it does. So the woman is completely responsible for the decision not to wear underwear.

    But I say also that there is no correlation of not to wear underwear and rape. At the moment one does make a correlation, the one doubts about the woman's total guiltlessness. I am sure the woman made it more than clear that she doesn't want that! So it doesn't matter what she's worn. She could have been naked, it doesn't matter.

    The topic is about a prior decision, the decision not to wear underwear!!!
    Or here the decision to use way Y anyway. (A potential contributory fault)
    So the entire thing is about what would have happened if she had worn underwear / had chosen way X!
    Those who want to blame the woman would say nothing had happened.

    If you don't like the term destiny, what about Carl Gustav Jung's Synchronicity? :D
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  13. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

    Feb 13, 2011
    4,668
    4,254
    150
    Dumb or not abduction is a crime as is rape, how they can acquit someone who has done both is beyond me.
     
  14. Michaela Joy

    Michaela Joy MDL Crazy Lady

    Jul 26, 2012
    3,505
    3,689
    120
    #14 Michaela Joy, Jun 20, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2013
    It's important to understand that rape is a crime of violence. It's not about forced sex as much as it is about violence, power and control.

    -REGARDLESS- of what She was wearing, She should -not- have been attacked by this sick S.O.B.

    And He should -NOT- have been acquitted.:mad:

    Edit: I'm so glad that they put this law in place. It should be adopted nationally.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  15. sid_16

    sid_16 MDL Giveaway Organiser

    Oct 15, 2011
    2,212
    3,720
    90
    It's not at all her fault, but that doesn't mean it was a wise decision. It's not your fault if you walk through the ghetto at night with wallets of cash sticking out of your pocket either, but that doesn't make it a good idea. It would in no way excuse the robber who rubbed you. By the way did you read the link in the 1st. post and where did this incident took place?
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  16. sid_16

    sid_16 MDL Giveaway Organiser

    Oct 15, 2011
    2,212
    3,720
    90
    The limit is there in the eyes of the rapist.



    If, say women have the right to wear what they want.......(no underwear) presumably it is none of our business. So why is the law concerning itself with attire ?
    If she would completely be naked with body paint across her back saying "please rape me," and an arrow pointing towards her back and near the same across her belly, you would still say that she is not responsible for what happens to her in the least because she has the right to be a complete moron or wear what she wants? No! You do something that might incite others.
    The rest to be conted.........
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  17. redroad

    redroad MDL Guru

    Dec 2, 2011
    5,346
    6,029
    180
    #17 redroad, Jun 20, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2013
    @Sid Having a point of view or in this case a moral judgement and voicing it is protected under most laws as is this woman's right to move freely however dressed without being violated in this way ..

    People are slow to change sometimes but the law does change and that's what sets up the structure for societal change .. A society will totally break down if it can't uphold it's current laws and will also fail if it can not legislate new or changed laws that accommodate a changing world .. It is the law that failed this woman not how she was dressed and it would be up to us or the citizenry of her home to improve upon with urgency the shortcomings .. There is a moral imperative to do so wouldn't you agree ?

    To your point certainly if I'm walking in the woods I give the bear a wide berth if I know where he is .. There are some who just don't know where danger lies and that is why we have laws to protect them .. Without meeting her I can not tell what factors caused her to be at that place but I do know she is scarred and deserves a chance to heal at the end of the day even if I have not met her .. So let us hold her in that light without reservation ..
     
  18. Yen

    Yen Admin
    Staff Member

    May 6, 2007
    10,975
    10,547
    340
    Why are your examples getting more and more off-reality? :)

    Do you think the judges would decide to share the blame if the painting would be 'Shoot me 'cause I am a dork!' and somebody would kill her? I guess not....:biggrin:

    Do not forget we have art and freedom of 'speach'. Perhaps the woman is an artist and wanted to protest against rape....;)

    It is not easy for the judges when it comes to 'indicent behavior'. But whatever it might be it never justifies rape. Rape is an action against own will of somebody. And to clarify the matter (if it was rape or not) we have the trials, each case is different.

    Btw: Is there still 'sense' in your example "please rape me", I mean can one beg to get raped at all???
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  19. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

    Feb 13, 2011
    4,668
    4,254
    150
    If she wanted to walk around naked I would be all for it, if she were good looking that is :D. But it still doesn't mean it's her fault if someone rapes her. I reiterate again it requires a really screwed up bastard to actually do the deed.
     
  20. Michaela Joy

    Michaela Joy MDL Crazy Lady

    Jul 26, 2012
    3,505
    3,689
    120
    And a really screwed up mind to think it's ok to rape a woman, or to even condone it because of the way that She's dressed.
    But I guess it's accepted in countries that still view women as possessions (chattel).

    Well here's a question: If your 12 year old daughter or sister was raped because of the way She was dressed, How would you feel?

    And what would you be prepared to do if the courts said it was Her fault because of the way She was dressed?
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...