Hypothesis: Consciousness is fundamental. What can that mean?

Discussion in 'Serious Discussion' started by Yen, Oct 11, 2023.

  1. Yen

    Yen Admin
    Staff Member

    May 6, 2007
    #1 Yen, Oct 11, 2023
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2023
    Consciousness is fundamental. The reality as we perceive it is an illusion
    This also means there is no determinism and materialism.
    When ‘we’ go we’ll take ‘our’ world with us.

    IMHO this will shake Physics in the future for sure.
    It also will unite quantum field and relativity. :)
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  2. gordo999

    gordo999 MDL Member

    Feb 11, 2019
    Yen...saved part of your post for a separate thread. I think what you are talking about is important in science because whatever affects observation affects what is observed, hence concluded.

    You said...
    Consider this, when you leave, what is left behind? It's not nothing. When we die, what is left behind has to be real physical reality. To distinguish the difference between reality created from consciousness and the reality separate from consciousness, Jiddu Krishnamurti called the former reality and the latter 'actuality'.

    There is an actual physical reality, whether philosophers agree or not. The suggestion that we create that reality (actuality) is nonsense, and part of the immense human ego.

    I attended an awareness seminar in which I argued philosophically with the forum leader as to the meaning of reality. At one point, he pounded on a concrete brick wall with the side of his fist and asked me if it was real, and if not, to walk through it. Of course, being steeped in philosophical bs., I argued the possibility that I might be able to fit the molecules in my body between the atoms of the concrete and get through it.

    It was not till I was driving home that the stupidity of my argument struck me. I was not willing to admit that the wall was a real, physical barrier and that typified my approach to life, which was mainly in my mind. From that moment of enlightenment, I dropped my bs. about reality and began to accept there are real, material objects in the universe, despite what humans think.

    Shorty before that experience I had discovered a book by Jiddu Krishnamurti called The Awakening of Intelligence. There are some dialogs in the book with physicist David Bohm. The book opened a peak experience for me in which, once and for all, I began to 'get' the illusions created by the human mind and how we have evolved thought to override intelligence. Of course, thought can be based on intelligence but normally it is not.

    I had been aware of a Zen phrase, the Cosmic Joke, but had never really gotten it. The joke is that the Creator gave us a mind that does not work properly and that we have no idea it is faulty. Enlightenment is the discovery of the joke and the realization that all we simply need is to be aware of it.

    I'd like to talk about this more at another time. Quantum theory is essentially based on the relationship of electrons in an atom to the nucleus. However, it has been obfuscated into philosophical jargon to the point no one can visualize it or even prove it. Ironically, Bohr, the founder of the theory is to blame. For some reason, he lead the theory off into a non-reality that prompted Einstein and Schrodinger to wash their hands of it, as non-science.

    Relativity theory, a la Einstein, has also been challenged by scientist like Louis Essen, the inventor of the atomic clock, who assessed the theory as not even a theory, but a collection of thought experiments. Before reading, Essen, and based purely on awareness from Krishnamurti, I had arrived at a similar conclusion.

    We humans invented time based on the position of the Sun in the sky. Initially, we used a sundial which cast a shadow produced by the Sun to indicate time of day. Later, we invented clocks to track the position of the Earth wrt the Sun as the Earth rotated. We based the second on 1/86,400th of a rotation.

    One of the bases of Einstein's theory is the definition of time. He defined it as 'the hands on a clock', a statement I could not believe from someone of his eminence. A clock is a machine that generates time, it does not measure it because there is nothing there to measure. Essen pointed out that Einstein did not understand measurement and I regard his statement re the hands of clock as proof of that. Einstein was a theoretical physicist, who unlike Newton, did none f his own experiments. He worked largely in his mind via thought experiments.

    Einstein adopted an equation from Lorentz in which the definition of time is illegally changed, depending on the velocity of an object wrt the speed of light. Not only does it claim time can change its length, a measuring stick would change length as well.

    As Essen pointed out, both Lorentz and Einstein redefined time and distance to make them fit their theories and that is pseudo-science. This may sound arrogant but check it for yourself. Find a time that is independent of the Earth's rotation other than an idea in the human mind. Past and future exist only in human minds. The only actuality is 'now.

    To see that, go back mentally in time, which is the only way to move through time, to the time of Christ, 2000+ years ago. Ask yourself what has changed other than erosion and other physical attributes. There is no such entity as time that can change. Essentially, we are in exactly the same space as Jesus walked 2000 years ago.
  3. Yen

    Yen Admin
    Staff Member

    May 6, 2007
    #3 Yen, Oct 14, 2023
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2023
    Well, when saying this is nonsense, then I would expect arguments for it.
    It's not about human ego, it's about the hypothesis consciousness being fundamental. A general principle, that transcends what Physicists call physical reality. Or a quantum field from which reality emerges at the moment of observation.
    Consider dreams. In fact they are as real as 'reality'. They emerge as soon as a dreamer is perceiving them. Why are they considered as being more illusionary than that what we calling physical reality? There is actually no valid reason except some mental assessments.

    Another fact is that a reality cannot be perceived as such without an observer / perceiver.

    The reality as you are perceiving it will be always a reality perceived by you. So when you say when you go there is something left that has to be physical reality you cannot escape from that fact that also 'that' is the reality perceived by you.
    So whatever is there 'after you are gone' is still the same. Your reality.
    That's why I have said: When we go we take our world / reality with us. That what's 'left behind' is the realities of the individuals who are 'left behind'.

    This has massive consequences hence a dared hypothesis. By other supporters it is even stated as;" We are living in a simulation" I personally do not choose that expression since it leads to many misunderstandings.

    BUT I would go that far to say: IF there is a tree falling somewhere is there any sound? I say how can there be a sound if there is not even a tree? Not to confuse it by that: I do not say that there is no event like Somebody has seen, recorded or noticed there is a tree it felt down and made a sound. I say consciousness is fundamental without it there is no tree and no sound. There is no physical reality that would not be included within consciousness as it is an expression of it. How can there be 'something' out of consciousness?

    The first experiment that always fascinated me was the double slit experiment. The wave-particle dualism, non-locality and quantum entanglement.
    The "spooky action at a distance" and nowadays the experiments of Anton Zeilinger on quantum teleportation. Bohr seems to get more right nowadays and the existence of hidden variables more and more disproved.

    So actually your ideas get more and more disproved. Physical reality independent from a conscious being always looked to me like more of a mental construct.
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  4. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
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  5. Yen

    Yen Admin
    Staff Member

    May 6, 2007
    Well, let me illustrate what I actually want to address to figure out if it would 'plague' physics.

    What 'plagues' Physics for sure is that:

    Classical science:
    Knows subjective coincidence. When you play dice, for instance.
    You cannot know what you dice, although you would since all forces and physical influences are known and described / are describable at classical physics.
    Therefore it also knows our ignorance.
    Therefore there is / it knows a hidden cause.
    The conception of the world is a closed one, though.

    Quantum science:
    Knows objective coincidence!
    Therefore 'ignorance' of nature itself.
    Therefore no causality.
    The conception of the world is an open one.

    How to 'imagine' that:
    Back to playing dice.
    You have now a pair of 'quantum' dice which are 'entangled'. Whatever you dice with dice 1 is objectively random, no hidden factors / causes which could predetermine the outcome.

    BUT the second dice ALWAYS shows the same value as dice one. And that exactly at that moment when dice one shows up the result. NOT before. This takes no time at all. There is NO cause why at all and it is not predictable until dice one is measured = shows up with the number.

    The distance of those dice does not matter at all, time does not matter at all. This is what Einstein called a spooky action at a distance. And Schrödinger a double coincidence.

    1 and 2 are basic attributes of both sciences, no hypotheses.

    It's actually about Realism:

    Realism of classical science:
    The measurement results are in line of the properties the system has before and INDEPENDENTLY of the measurement.

    This realism is obviously violated at quantum science.

    The Bohr / Einstein debate is basically about:

    Einstein: Physical reality is independent from an observer, its Reality is describable by Physics.

    Bohr: It's dependent from an observer, you can only get information ABOUT its Reality. "No phenomenon is a phenomenon except it is an observed phenomenon."

    Now it's all about how to look at those and if there is a principle / hypothesis first which can transcend both. It can be quantum field, it can be 'consciousness'...
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  6. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
    Back to Hegel for you, I think...

    Solipsism or Hegel, that is the question...
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  7. genuine555

    genuine555 MDL Expert

    Oct 3, 2009
    #7 genuine555, Oct 18, 2023
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2023
    Consciousness is fundamental because it is the only thing there is.

    But "what" is consciousness? Few realize that everything is electromagnetism and as this "force" is dualized between a magnetic toroidal forcefield and an electric force therein contained, it contains the "force-awareness" or better yet the consciousness of all that which "lives". We all have an electromagnetic field in which a magnetic self-imploding toroidal forcefield is centered in the zero-point center of our heart and bends around the human body, and an electric force-potential is contained within it to do two things: animate the material body and to focus in the brain to provide the Spirit of the Father in the mind. Herein lies the truth about the Father's Spirit and the Mother's Soul, in that they are the two opposite parts of living consciousness, one part cognition of "Spirit" and one part EMOTION of "Soul".

    By this, you'll already notice how Spirit AND Soul are both parts of our living consciousness, housed in the electromagnetic "force-awareness" of Creation. And ALL things material and living have an electromagnetic field that contains the Spirit of the Father and the Mother's Soul, separated in the body in mind and heart. One is masculine and provides cognition and thought, the other feminine and gives us emotiveness and intuition. Fundamental to know here is that the natural "force" is truly "living" and holds the "awareness" of all that which lives.

    Now, to say that this force-awareness is all there is, and nothing else actually truly "exists" lies in the hidden truth of the holographic Universe, in which all "material" things are in truth only solidified holographic extrapolations of light-energy. Light is by definition the electrical "output" of the living electromagnetic field, and all that which lives actually "radiates" such light-energy out from its being, but for instance the Sun and stars do it at a much higher electromagnetic frequency than for instance living things on Earth. The light and heat the Sun and stars radiate is really "electric" force-potential radiated at a very high frequency. In this, know that electricity at its highest frequency-output will give off pure white light. This is evidenced in for instance lightning when it strikes, that is white light emitted due to frequency increase of the electric force-potential.

    The holographic Universe is defined by this electric light-output, and uses it to illuminate and materialize the holographic "imprint" of a matter-body. As ancient scriptures like the Vedic Upanishads have foretold, there is only "one" thing in existence and from its light, the whole external Universe (called "Maya" in Vedic faith) is born from it. Of course this is the Atom of Creation, the only "light-body" ever created in the beginning, and all matter of the external Universe is a mirrored image of that light-body, meaning that all stars mirror the same light of the selfsame atomic core. As above so below, the Hermetic axiom and its principles teach us that the atoms below and within us are the selfsame things as the stars in heaven above and outside of us. Like two opposing mirrors, the inner-microcosm within us and the outer-macrocosm outside of us both materialize the "same" physical matter-body, creating the "duality" of inner-self and inner-body versus the body of the Universe outside of it, and both opposites are truly existential opposites of a duality. That duality translates in our consciousness in the separation between the senses of the heart--which are inner-focused and perceive the inner-cosmos of self--and the senses of the external-focused mind which perceive the external "holographic" Universe.

    The duality of inner- and outer-Universe is though centered around the "single" light of the "only" atomic light-body that was ever created in the beginning, meaning that both are materialized from the light of that single atom. A holographic process causes a "polarization" of that light that "turns" it from an inner-focus to an outer-radiation, by which a single light in the center of the "singularity" within the atom originally shone its light "inwardly" towards the absolute zero-point but was turned to radiate it outwards, and while there is only "one" atomic center on the inside of itself, outside "around" itself, a holographic multitude of matter-bodies are externally extrapolated and multiplied from it. Holographic projection and reflection of its light causes it to be polarized and turned outwardly, while an embedded fractal aspect "fractions" it endlessly into multiplied instances of itself, in countless different "configurations" by reflecting and extrapolating it in different dimensional "angles".

    All matter-bodies in the Universe, from atom to star, from living cell to galaxy, and from living body to Universe itself, contain the selfsame light of the Atom of Creation in their center and while we see countless material bodies in the Universe and on Earth, they are in truth all partial to the selfsame "light" and the selfsame "consciousness" within that centered light. The light is the expression of the Spirit and the Soul within that electromagnetic being, and we are truly all that selfsame electromagnetic being on the inside of ourselves, in which everything is electromagnetically unified, even though the holographic Universe on the outside of ourselves shows us a "lie" that everything and everyone is separate from one another. This is the key to understand the duality of one's own consciousness in mind and heart, Spirit and Soul, knowing that Spirit expresses thought while Soul expresses emotion, and knowing that while currently separately experienced (as thought mostly suppresses true emotion rather than expressing it freely), they are supposed to be "married" in "Holy Matrimony". Therein lies then also the hidden truth about the Holy "sacraments" and "matrimony", that they all involve processes and actions to perform and complete on the INSIDE of the living self on the level of its own consciousness and "force-awareness" rather than in the outside world. Baptism involves the "anointment" of the Spirit in the living mind by consciously rejoining the electromagnetic opposites. Doing so involves the process known as "raising the sacred oil" or otherwise named in Holy scripture as "raising the milk and honey in PENIEL", Peniel here a metaphor for the pineal gland. By bringing together the magnetic force of emotion and the electric force of thought in a process called "raising the Kundalini", the mind is anointed by the electric elixir that is mixed when doing so, and is given access to the inner-eye and higher insightfulness.

    Baptism comes first, by which the opposites of self-awareness are for the first time briefly rejoined and self experiences a rebirth in the Soul and Spirit (= the conjoined magnetic and electric opposites of heart and mind) of Christ. Then communion is "practiced" repeatedly, by which one practices the same rejoining of the mind and heart and raising the sacred oil into the center-eye, learning to maintain that state for longer and longer periods. Then, ultimately, Holy Matrimony can be achieved by which the Spirit of mind and Soul of heart are fully rejoined in their sacred union of consciousness for the remainder of one's physical life. In that, one "becomes" the living Soul and Spirit of the Christ, reborn and remarried from within. You see, in all of this, misunderstanding of the ancient truths are the "fundamental" issue that causes scientific lies to become believed by "evidence" while the inner-truth of One is wholesomely mistrusted, disbelieved or even wholesomely forgotten.

    As said in the gospel of Thomas, when the two are married under the same house and you ask a mountain to move, it will surely move. This is metaphorical speech for saying when the SPIRIT in mind and SOUL in heart are rejoined (in matrimony) in the center-eye of (inner-)perception, you can gain abilities otherwise physically impossible. True magic can be gained by doing this, in which the true power of God is (re)awoken in the living self "when" these "two" are married "under the same house". To use "house" as a metaphor for this goes back to the earliest proto-cuneiform in which "E.DIN" and "E.GIR" stood for the "house of the heart" and the "house of the mind" or spirit. (DIN = magnetic shield or heart / GIR = sword or electric force of mind => the sword of truth and shield of love are the manner in which Holy scripture describes the ancient cuneiform symbolism of "GIR" versus "DIN", denoting the shield of love in the living heart which nourtures and protects, and the sword of truth in the living mind which aims straight and true).

    Knowing that this electromagnetic Spirit and Soul reside in the "house of the heart" and the "house of the mind" and that the whole physical aspect of our "light-body" is only holographically extrapolated on the outside around our true atomic light-body, we can understand how that pure electromagnetic light-body and the "consciousness" therein is the only thing there is. Truly, the "real" nature of "Christ" is that He literally "is" that single One, the One true Atomic light-body created by God in the beginning, with the Spirit and Soul of God Himself "reborn" within that light-body in the beginning. The man who lived and spoke of this before, simply had Christ reborn and living within himself, but he himself as a "person" was not the living Christ until He was reawoken from within him, and while the person is seen as Christ Himself, the truth is misunderstood that Christ is that Godly heart-mind consciousness within us, and those that reawaken it and marry it can be physically reborn "as" the living Christ. Christ within is the one true Messiah, whereas the person that delivered His message was indeed His MESSENGER rather than the One true Messiah Himself. Adam and Eve are "not" the first "physical" humans but the living "Spirit" and "Soul" in the heart and mind of that light-body in the beginning, and Genesis truly describes what occurs on the "inside" of that light-body and how the Spirit and Soul of Adam and Eve "falls" out from "E.DIN" and into the outside void, meaning that the electromagnetic "focus" of that light-body became externalized and started illuminating the void on the "outside" of E.DIN, where the holographic Universe was "prepared" for that living consciousness to perceive a world of matter on the outside around itself; THAT is when Earth and "human" became externally materialized. Such is how Adam and Eve, the consciousness in mind and heart of the Atom, became "banished" out from the house of the heart in which they had been "married" and conjointly focused "inwardly" before their turn. Because of their turn, God banished them from His inner-sanctum and they became conscious in the outside world because they basically started using the polarized Spirit which God had forbidden them to use. It is the "tree" of knowledge of good and evil, holding the "polarized" duality of knowledge between a right-side mind which naturally looks inwardly and uses the heart's inner-senses to perceive and experience life, and a left-side "ego" mind which looks unnaturally "outward" by the external senses to perceive and experience the holographic recreation of what is truly "life" on the inside of the living self (=emotionally based life such as ALL of nature automatically does). A polarization of the Spirit caused the ego to appear and start "luring" the inward-aimed Spirit of Adam to turn around and become conscious on the outside of E.DIN, turned away from its inner-union with "Eve" and become "individualized" from it, using the oppositely turned polarity of the Spirit to look no longer in but out, and to live no longer in God's inner-sanctum but outside of it. That caused the materialization of all things in the holographic Universe.

    Since the very beginning and until the very end, there is only "One" on the inside of all things, and the consciousness therein is that of Christ, the One and only "Son" of God, in which God created His own light-body and had His own Soul and Spirit reborn in that light-body, by which the Father truly is the Son, and the Son is the Father. And as the atomic light-body of the Son was made alive, He had the Spirit of the Father and the Mother's Soul made conscious within Himself. All consciousness is One and as it came out form One it will return back into One, but currently the living human self is the only thing that "lives" that sets itself apart from its Godly given inner-focused consciousness in which the magnetic Soul and electric Spirit are conjoined in a unified singular living expression of higher thought AND higher emotion combined in every single act. We "chose" in the beginning to use the tree of knowledge and harvest its "fruits", by which we became lodged into the "ego" in the left-side polarized brain, and our consciousness is "turned" back to back away from and against our Godly given Soul and the righteous Spirit of the Father. Ego acts and enacts life fully "opposite" to how God had intended us to live, externally and individualized instead of internally and in Oneness.

    As such, to state that consciousness is "fundamental" is an understatement, because it is the only thing existentially real, meaning that only what we experience cognitively by Spirit and emotionally by Soul is real. But in knowing the delusion sheathed around the holographic universe outside of ourselves, we know that only what we emote and cognize "within" ourselves on emotional levels of cognition is actually the only thing that really "matters".

    This is a very compressed description of a very elaborate narrative concerning our creation, evolution and destiny. Those interested can head to our website https://yhsh.xyz in which one can find certain manuscripts and blog posts that delve further and deeper into these matters, but fair warning that most of it highly contradicts the modern scientific misunderstanding of Universe and Creation.

  8. Yen

    Yen Admin
    Staff Member

    May 6, 2007
    #8 Yen, Oct 21, 2023
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2023
    Thank you for your contribution to this topic. :)

    It's full of special and certain knowledge, knowledge I partly have as well, but not as detailed when it comes to the mental concepts and subtleties.

    When it comes to describing 'consciousness', we tend to run into inconsistencies, the more detailed we try, the more it happens.
    When we agree by saying it is 'fundamental' but at the same time we compare it to whatever objects: 'Energy', electromagnetic-, quantum-, fields etc...
    Actually those objects are already a derivative, a form from/of the subject itself. This is the consequence when we say it is fundamental.

    For instance when you assign high energy to white light, then you conflict physics easily already.
    Take 3 pools of light, red, green and blue, let them overlap. At the center you get white light. When you order light according to raising frequency which is proportional to its energy, the 'last' thing what we call light that is visible is violet light.
    Then you leave what we call visible light going into the ultra violet range.

    So in the sense of Physics white light is rather a 'summary' of different frequencies (and black an absence of it) than a form of highest energy. Physics therefore speaks about polychromatic light = white light.

    This does not suffer from going into details where conflicts might occur. I agree with it.

    I would like to pick 3 things and when you apply what you know and have posted I am curious what would be your answers about.:)
    Bohr said: "No phenomenon is a phenomenon except it is an observed phenomenon." Is this conform to what you have posted?

    I said: "When we go, we take our world / reality with us." Is that still conform?

    Now even going further.
    What we perceive as reality is dependent on our state of consciousness. It is like a receiver / transmitter dualism. If we tune 'our' frequency we receive (actually perceive) another form of reality.
    'Our' frequency means for instance our brain wave states. Consciousness appears here as a form, brain waves.

    We know depending on their frequency as a measurable object we can categorize them as different states. We apply here the same principle we do when we order light according to its raising / declining frequencies.

    Beta-Waves: 14 to 100 Hz. This is called wake state. We perceive the 'world' as common reality, the physical world.
    Alpha-waves: 8 to 13 Hz: We are relaxed. Not many active thought processes. We feel comfortable, quiet just like after an relaxing walk through nature etc etc..
    Theta-waves. 4 to 8 Hz. The moment we are starting to fall asleep. Also what we call day dreaming. The perceived world drastically changes. We are starting to dream. By that the whole perception of that what is now reality.
    At this state we, 'our' perception is not able to perceive that what we call physical world! It simply does not exist to us.

    It also means and here it gets mystical from the perspective of science. It means our self-identification to our physical body loosens. We have another body, a dream body and another world, a dream world.
    If experienced enough one can even hold the perception of the physical realm. You can see your body sleeping, OOBE, astral-projection. This is no fuss, there are enough people doing that. And random NDE reports are quite similar.

    And we have delta-waves below 4Hz where we are in deep-sleep. There is no-body who could perceive a-thing...consciousness returned home so to say.

    So how would you categorize that and what does it mean when speaking about reality?
    To me simply it means (the state of) consciousness determines what is reality. And there is no reality which should be more real than another. There is no 'untouchable' within self-reasoned physical reality. :)
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  9. Yen

    Yen Admin
    Staff Member

    May 6, 2007
    #9 Yen, Oct 26, 2023
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2023
    I plead for a new Philosophy.
    Markus Gabriel has an interesting approach."Neuer Realismus". Neo Realism.
    He still does not take into account entanglement and other aspects of quantum Physics, though.

    But what he's to say makes most sense to me what I have heard from 'new' Philosophers so far.
    I could not read his book "Warum es die Welt nicht gibt", though. (Why the world does not exist.) Too complicated, but I liked his debates found on YouTube etc etc.
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  10. sid_16

    sid_16 MDL Giveaway Organiser

    Oct 15, 2011
    To the OP's original question:
    Yen sir is lately diving deep into the philosophical waters! The idea that consciousness is fundamental and reality is an illusion is a perspective shared by some thinkers, especially in eastern philosophies. It challenges the traditional views of determinism and materialism, suggesting a more subjective and experiential understanding of the existence. The notion that our perception shapes our reality is intriguing.

    What led you to ponder on these ideas?
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  11. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
    Back to Classical German Philosophy ("Idealism") for all of them... And yes, it's "complicated", so brace yourselves...
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  12. Yen

    Yen Admin
    Staff Member

    May 6, 2007
    #12 Yen, Nov 9, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2023
    Those ideas were always a part of my life actually since I am a kid. :)
    "What's about the world out there when I sleep?"
    "Where is my dream world and why do we dream at all?"
    Questions I had when I was a kid.

    I always had an affinity to science and what we can call spirituality. I always struggled with the seemingly discrepancies of classical science and spirituality.
    The double slit experiment always fascinated me. And nowadays the works of Anton Zeilinger who got a Nobel price. Actually very surprisingly....
    I always enjoyed discussions with friends about those matters..had lots of interesting talks and got interesting views. I became familiar with Eastern Philosophy due to my travels as well.

    And I never agreed with a Reality which is independent, (pre)determined and therefore completely describable by Physics as if there would be no influence by the observation itself.
    "All we get is information about its reality." ever applied more.
    Yes. Always tended to that.:)

    And recently: A new subject got my interest: OOBE research and the Monroe Institute.

    I have the feeling the time now is special in a way. More and more people come up with hypotheses..maybe preparing a paradigm change.
    "We are living in a simulation / a matrix". "Consciousness is fundamental". "Things do not appear as they seem to be". "There is 'ignorance' of nature itself"...That kind of ideas.
    One has to be careful, though. It is not easy to get the 'reasonable' stuff out from some spiritual idiocy.

    Times are rough in a way....maybe enforcing that change..at least I have that feeling. And there is quantum Physics always looked at it as something that IS predictable applying 'equations of probabilities', something that works on every micro chip, but anyway spooky.

    So ATM I also came back to that matters....which always played a role in my personal life. Sometimes more, sometimes less. ATM more again. :)
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  13. Yen

    Yen Admin
    Staff Member

    May 6, 2007
    I finally decided to write a brief (as briefly I can) overview of what I figured out about that for a year now researching about. Why?
    Because there are too many anecdotal / personal evidences I simply cannot ignore. It is related to the topic in a way.
    What is the purpose of this post? Nothing, but to arouse own curiosity. I only post briefly where one could start own research.

    Out Of Body Experiences. (OOBE). When I heard first about I thought such reports are from certain people because they suffered from an extreme psychological condition. There are similarities to NDEs (Near Death Experiences).
    I never cared about since last year.

    There is an Institute: The Monroe Institute. Founder Robert Monroe. This is a good place to start. About the institute and the person's history.
    When doing so you will encounter "The Gateway Experience" and also that intelligence agencies had interests. (No surprise).

    You also come across to Tom Campbell an ex. NASA Physicist. Somebody who met Robert Monroe, learned and developed a technique to induce OOBEs. After decades of experimenting he wrote his MBT (My Big TOE, TheoryOfEverything).
    The basic conclusion represents my topic. Consciousness is fundamental.

    Fascinated from Tom Campbell's own history I thought I need to know more about.
    I purchased a book. Author: William Buhlman: "Out Of Body"

    And then I found something that got things together. Simple YouTube videos of 'ordinary' people reporting about involuntary OOBEs. They actually suffered from a disease called narcolepsy. Others from diffuse sleep issues.
    AND I found people who teach how to induce OOBEs. You also can do that at the Monroe Institute.

    So now I took the challenge. Is it all fuss or is there a reasonable relationship?
    Firstly I figured what they called OOBE is nothing new, it is found at several ancient cultures such as Egyptians. A synonym is Astral Projection.

    More scientifically: I compared techniques how to induce OOBEs with those people having involuntary OOBEs.
    The 'approach' is the same. The major difference, though. Those having it involuntarily were mostly frightened. Not knowing what is happening. There are interesting reports at YouTube.

    The approach: To us a hypothesis. To others a form of reality.
    "There is a state of consciousness. The access to it is gained by finding a way where the body falls asleep, but the 'mind' remains conscious".
    This is 'naturally' happening when suffering from narcolepsy. Also at sleep issues, for instance when you get awake, but you are still at sleep paralyses.
    The techniques applied and taught and the natural conditions suffering from those are the same!

    At this condition 'you' can leave your body. People reporting that they 'rolled out' from their physical body, turning around and seeing their own body still sleeping. From there you can go and explore the new reality.
    No surprise, imagine what impact that would have on our entire way of being.

    I also compared what is written about what one encounters when applying such a technique.
    All them are tied with meditative practices. Breath, visualization, affirmations. Some use technical tools such as binaural beats, which synchronize brain wave states. (Theta to delta is prevailing there).
    Fact is (according to logic) you get aware of phenomena of which you never knew before.
    Reports: There is a hypnagogic state where one encounters colorful patterns behind the closed eye, they come along with sounds, frequently loud noises. Some said like an airplane engine, bashing doors....

    Finally they get over to the vibrational state. Body sensations which can become very intense. After they settled 'you' are at sleep paralyses, but your mind is completely awake. From there they apply the leaving body techniques...

    I stop here. I don't want to put much personal interpretations in it.

    If I should have aroused your curiosity, do your own research. Maybe use the bold keywords posted here to start.

    I thought this is all fuss. But if researching more and more, I promise, you will find out that there are lots of people reporting about. Schools where you can learn it. The Monroe Institute. Scientific interpretations using brain waves, etc,etc..
    This is a very interesting field of scientific research! Still at the beginning.

    There is only one thing that would clarify what's all about this. Experiencing at one's own. Trying the techniques oneself. Anything else remains a fascinating hypothesis, nothing more.

    I thought this is that much weird it cannot be at all...but researching more I could not ignore. Why are there so many different reports and stories which are reasonably related and have basic logic in common?!?! I try to get some detailed instructions.
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  14. MarvelX7

    MarvelX7 MDL Member

    Jun 1, 2021
    Give this a listen
  15. Yen

    Yen Admin
    Staff Member

    May 6, 2007
    #15 Yen, Nov 19, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2023
    I did. It's a nice debate. Reminds me of debates I had and still have sometimes with friends. Most of them are either scientists or scientific employees.

    If I had the chance I would have asked Firas about quantum Physics.
    There is obviously no hidden factors. Means it knows objective coincidence. Therefore 'ignorance' of nature itself. According to him there is still a hidden factor we don't know about.

    But experiments, especially those of Anton Zeilinger created even more evidences that there are no hidden factors at all.

    I liked how he described consciousness at the end of the video. I am a denier of Epiphenomenalism, too. Exactly the opposite applies. Our world is nested in consciousness. There is no physical object outside of consciousness. Epiphenomenalism is self-contradictory.
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