If God is Omniscient then Human is not free.

Discussion in 'Serious Discussion' started by sid_16, Apr 9, 2013.

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Free will doesn't exist If God is omniscient.

  1. If yes, why?

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  2. If no, then how?

    29 vote(s)
    61.7%
  1. sid_16

    sid_16 MDL Giveaway Organiser

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    As the title of this thread says, in other words free will doesn't exist If God is omniscient .Please discuss/comment on it.
     
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  2. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    God is omniscent in the aspect of that there is no difference of everything that can ever be known and himself.


    The mind usually works in duality, means the mind needs a relation to have a reference point.
    The thread title relates two objects: somebody 1. god who can have 2. omniscience. And both are ideas of those who discuss about. This is foredoomed to fail--->will end in endless discussions.



    Why are attributes such as omniscience or omnipotence associated with god?

    Because 'god' is a name for that what ever IS, NOW and all the time....and when anything contains everything already now, then 'god' is omniscient. But 'he' is also the only reality, means that what you are and himself are just two different ideas of the same presence.

    To discuss is actually an attribute of an sophisticated mind.

    Nobody can deny the presence, the suchness of now and 'its' existence. (God).

    But many people are fighting about their ideas of: God, atheist, believer, ideology, yes about the ideas of themselves.....

    An example:

    Person A: "God is omniscent!"
    Person B: "God does not even exist!"
    Person C: " God is not omniscent!"

    Who is right?

    All of those three and nobody.
    The 3 ideas of god are simply different, but each matches to the person's own idea.

    But nobody is really talking about 'god', that what really IS NOW. The biggest barrier of humans and god is the idea of time.
    This is the major quest of humankind and is reflected in the bible also. To get 'something' beyond mind and time.
    Moses asked god for his name and he answered: I AM THAT I AM. This is my name forever.

    All fights about belief and god are based on the fact that nobody can accept that god is no object of the mind.
    All those fights will last until this truth becomes manifest.
     
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  3. Michaela Joy

    Michaela Joy MDL Crazy Lady

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    IMHO, the simple fact that you can choose not to believe in GOD proves that free will still exists.

    Also, GOD can be omniscient and not interfere in the affairs of humans. Because of free will, GOD does not force a particular path on you.

    I believe in GOD. I also believe that everybody who has a spiritual belief system is striving to reach GOD.

    One face, Many names. :)
     
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  4. nodnar

    nodnar MDL Addicted

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    i am free not to believe in him. and that is good enough for me..
     
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  5. msr

    msr MDL Senior Member

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    What ever the reasons for god, or his existence does not matter. Humans are not free today because of other humans.

    The thing we can control is the fact that humans deny other humans freedoms.

    Like how the eu clamped down on microsoft as they where trying to monopolise operating systems being sold to the public.
    Where is the freedoms there.

    Also do you really know why you buy the stuff you do? I never watch adverts and i hardly buy any of the rubbish most people buy.
    What does that say about your freedoms.

    Do you really know where the excitment for apple products comes from?
     
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  6. msr

    msr MDL Senior Member

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    Exactly, but whether you believe in god or not, your predestined to live a sort of life with limited possibilities where your choice counts. God or what ever that is, predestined you to live your life, but the only choices you have really are not what you think, as you have no idea if you really would of picked an alternative in anything you have done.
     
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  7. timesurfer

    timesurfer MDL Developer

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    #7 timesurfer, Apr 9, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2013
    God wears both Dark t-shirts and light t-shirts hence God is both sides of the force, which is tough cause everyone expects god to be like Jesus, nice caring, helpful

    God is everywhere at once at the root of all stuff but in the linear programmed mind that perspective is never attainable and thus things "seem" to come from a undefinable past to an even greater undefinable future :eek:

    This is where forgiveness comes in cause you as "God" could save yourself from the world and "god" in others could be still experimenting with darkness upon earth and the individual as "God" could break their agreement to be at the effect of the dark side of the force or God...

    From an inteleectual point of view I totally agree but then again I'm no intellectual :eek:...lol

    Then from non-intellectual perspective what drives humans? Emotions/Cultural programming or unseen "forces" :yoda:

    "These are not the droids your looking for"

    Funny too is that the idea of time we have (A measurement of space governed by mechanical arbitrary means such as a clock or yard stick) is not really time for true time is of an eternal nature which I call the present where our true spiritual teachers have to be even to relay a true notion of the term god

    True cosmic time is not linear and in that is a better description of not only how the cosmos works but of what is at the center of it? God/Present time!

    Be in the eye of the hurricane I say but in the historical free will experiment where limits replace limitlessness the eye of the hurricane can't be seen through the storm

    Really it is possible to clear one's amnesia of god and know what god is for one's self but even science distracts us by saying we come from an fictional big bang and can't give us an unified field theory and excludes the variable eternity in the theory of relativity.

    Another place to view and know is coming or returning though and I've seen it as a place of resonance with life or creation hence in trying to grasp such an almost undefinable topic as "God" via analyzing or thinking I believe one is put further from realization or understandings of what truly governs life in it's times of darkness or light

    Funny how my new program actually says Exit Duality :eek: and I did not do that on purpose I swear :sneaky:...lol

    [​IMG]

    :shisha:
     
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  8. Michaela Joy

    Michaela Joy MDL Crazy Lady

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    It also helps to remember that we are multi-dimensional beings comprised of energy. Our bodies are nothing but vessels that allow us to interact in a 4th dimensional linear time-space. When We leave our bodies, we don't "die" in the sense of being destroyed, (see: The laws of conservation of mass and energy) We simply go back to the dimension from whence we came. :)

    We -will- see our loved ones again. I can't prove it, but that's the mystery of faith that spiritualism talks about. :)

    I believe that GOD is not a single entity, but a commitee of -very- old, -very- wise souls. (see: The back pages of the King James Bible.."GOD is not liken to a person but unto a government")

    We set up challenges and tests for ourselves before we come into this world, and our lives are designed, by us, to allow us to learn and strengthen our souls. GOD ("The Commitee") Simply advises us and helps us to adhere to our own plan.

    We also define and hone our internal "rule-books" (What we will accept and what we will not, what we like and dislike, etc.)

    That's why it is said that GOD doesn't give you more than you can handle. You choose it yourself. :)

    With that said, we do have free will to choose to avoid or evade an unpleasent life challenge, but eventually it happens and we must deal with it.

    -Everything- that happens to us in this life helps to grow. Especially the adversities.

    Peace,
    :Miki.
     
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  9. timesurfer

    timesurfer MDL Developer

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    #9 timesurfer, Apr 10, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2013
    Too much Sci-Fi (Yes I am Sci-Fi finatic kinda with it's bogus continuum theories which are actually limits thus don't describe an infinite universe)

    lol...4th dimensional time is not linear but radial and now centered and space or "bodies" are goverened by the laws of time which supercede the laws of space :eek:

    Old is relative given everything manifests/unmanifest from and to the present :rolleyes:...lol

    A true Shaman from present time energies could manifest/de-manifest any body, like into a wolf or the wind...

    Life is truly sitting between the manifest/unmanifest cycles of the eternal cosmic law of how things come to be or dissolve which in itself describes an entirely different cosmology than the fictional big bang and theories of "relativity" which describes everything in life like an arrow going from a past to a future

    That linear (Big Bang) state of mind not only invalidates how God is creating everything in the present but interferes with intervention from higher (multidimensional) energies influencing this planet and it's fall from spiritual realization ;)

    True government is telepathic in nature which doesn't allow lying or hoodwinking :headbang:...lol

    lol...The group is an individual :shisha:
     
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  10. sid_16

    sid_16 MDL Giveaway Organiser

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    Suppose that, an omniscient God knows that you will not believe Him . You haven't done it, but that god knows it will be like you think . What is the mathematical probability that you will believe Him? Answer 0%. What is the mathematical probability that you WILL not believe Him? Answer 100%. Anything for which the probability of its occurrence in advance is known to be 100% and the probability of it non-occurrence is 0% is a sure thing.

    Even if that God were to reveal to you that you were about to not believe His presence, you could not avoid doing it, at least not without breaking that god's omniscience. Thus you have no choice, because no matter how hard you might try to believe Him , you will still not believe Him. This is in opposition to freewill. :D
     
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  11. sid_16

    sid_16 MDL Giveaway Organiser

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    You are missing the problem at hand. It is not about whether "God" chooses to interfere with what he knows is going to happen tomorrow. That's another thing.

    Point is - how can we say freewill exists, if the knowledge of what a man is going to do BEFORE the scenario where he is going to do what he does, is present, well, before he does it.

    Freewill means an ability to chose what one wishes. Is this you're referring to?
    No Freewill means a person could not have chosen to do anything else than what he does in a given scenario.

    If the knowledge of what a person WILL do in a scenario is generated BEFORE that person even meets the scenario, where is a freewill here? :confused:
     
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  12. SOCRATE_MMXII

    SOCRATE_MMXII MDL Expert

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    Oh, crap! Not here, too!
    I had the same discussion on another forum and the guy just couldn't realize that I'm free not to do WHATEVER I want, but I have to support the consequences of my actions.
    So, I exercise my FREE WILL to not come to this topic again.
    @sid16: you're free to dream on in your nice and lovely scientific dream.
     
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  13. sid_16

    sid_16 MDL Giveaway Organiser

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    Yen sir wrote;
    The extent to which one's thoughts can go, cannot be incomprehensibly large. One's thoughts are limited to what one can comprehend. Even for argument sake too, let us assume, God is omniscient. That God knows EVERYTHING that is there to be known, for All the systems that exist in the universe.

    Now we can have two alternatives for what the thoughts of anything else that is "not God" can take. One is, the comprehension of EVERYTHING that God knows. The other is, a subset of what is known to the God. Combining both the arguments, we can infer that an individual can AT BEST know things that are known to God.

    Again, if God is omniscient, is a necessary and sufficient condition, then it would mean, whoever is omniscient, is God. That would mean, those that are not omniscient, can only comprehend things that is a subset of what is known to the God, and would be bit less than it. So, with this one can conclude that, free will certainly have a limiting value, meaning beyond an extent, it would cease to exist. :)
     
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  14. sid_16

    sid_16 MDL Giveaway Organiser

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    #14 sid_16, Apr 10, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2013
    (OP)
    Socrates of 2012, did you understand the title of the question from the very beginning or just throwing tantrum as usual? :D
    What kind of Will is 'Free' if a third person knows it and can affect or interrupt it if he/she wants?
     
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  15. sid_16

    sid_16 MDL Giveaway Organiser

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    See, as a thought exercise, we might think of a character who - whatever he'll do, or chose to do, under any given circumstances, and he'll definitely do that, and only that, and nothing else but that - if such a character exists and such a knowledge of his certain actions under the circumstances exists and is known, even before those circumstances are present to him. Would you say he has freewill? Or would you say he has no freewill, since it is already determined how he'll react?:confused:
     
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  16. Michaela Joy

    Michaela Joy MDL Crazy Lady

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  17. Myrrh

    Myrrh MDL Expert

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    Free will means we have the choice to believe or not.

    Omniscience means that God, not me, knew beforehand what my choice would be, but He did not make that choice for me.

    Without free will, life is meaningless other than just executing your program like the meat robot you are.
     
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  18. timesurfer

    timesurfer MDL Developer

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    #18 timesurfer, Apr 10, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2013
    lol...I didn't comment on your multidimensional awesomeness just quoted what I did about you saying the word linear regarding the 4th dimension

    Go back read :rolleyes:...lol

    Thanks for reminding me I have free will though :p
     
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  19. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    When somebody says: "I have the freewill to do..." how can it be a freewill? Would you tolerate to suffer then if it is (already) freewill?
    I guess we confuse own will with freewill.

    That what's here called freewill is a will that belongs to somebody, a will somebody has, and hence it can't be free. A will that is related to an object (to an idea of somebody's identity, to an individual) is no freewill.
    We can have an idea of a freewill and a 'restricted' will. But it are only ideas / objects in our minds.

    A real free will belongs to nobody and hence it is free. Freewill is all what happens now and that is the will of nobody, of no object.

    Some say it is 'The Will of God" = that what is / happens now / the present moment. And god cannot be an object in one's mind.


    "Thy will be done."
     
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  20. timesurfer

    timesurfer MDL Developer

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    So freewill is independent of infinite possibilities and does infinite possibilities govern free will?

    Why in "freewill experiments" on Earth do we have an limited reality hence I think the term free will is to "lesson" what's possible and if God is everything/everywhere all at once then free will is just against truly what is possible!

    So I think free is really doing otherwise than would keep a system/environment in sync with all parts of it's self hence free will is being seperate from one's self

    In the Scriptures, the Devil asks God, hey can I deceive those of your creation on earth?

    God says yes and the Devil creates an reality "seperate" from God's creation and thus the historical cycle is born when all of life, not just humans, falls from spiritual realization and lives in an limited reality creating, false govt's, false religions and worships death rather than eternity of which the root of god's creation is actually based

    :shisha:
     
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