[Solved] Bad News: ReFS support in W8-1 Client is crippled

Discussion in 'Windows 8' started by moderate, Aug 30, 2013.

  1. moderate

    moderate MDL Guru

    Aug 31, 2009
    2,636
    2,143
    90
    #1 moderate, Aug 30, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2013
  2. WinDev

    WinDev MDL Expert

    Jul 6, 2013
    1,170
    1,002
    60
    Probably ReFS support will be fixed in Windows 9.
     
  3. Yen

    Yen Admin
    Staff Member

    May 6, 2007
    11,098
    10,768
    340
    As a monopolist you don't need other technology. NTFS is NEW Technology File System already! New = 20 years old! :rolleyes:
    Who is responsible for that?
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  4. moderate

    moderate MDL Guru

    Aug 31, 2009
    2,636
    2,143
    90
    Rainbow Cyber Goth - our daily quote maker. :)
    Rainbow.jpg
     
  5. Neyder

    Neyder MDL Novice

    Oct 28, 2012
    12
    5
    0
    #5 Neyder, Aug 30, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 20, 2017
    The regfile doesn't help =( files are already in system folders.
    But !
    You can format with the dvd/usb in recovery mode from a command prompt, then windows will automatically mount ReFS partitions.
    Code:
    format /fs:refs /Q X:
    I think MS wants only Raid drives to be formatted in ReFS
     
  6. chinobino

    chinobino MDL Member

    Jul 28, 2009
    160
    56
    10
    ReFS was developed for Windows Storage Spaces with multiple disks and not necessarily the same size disks either (as opposed to RAID volumes, where there disks are usually the same size).

    @ moderate - Do you need some specific feature of ReFS?

    NTFS actually has more usable "features" and is much easier to recover data from.
     
  7. Neyder

    Neyder MDL Novice

    Oct 28, 2012
    12
    5
    0
    What I meant is that if you don't use WSS, maybe you can use it in raid, but no on single drive, I don't know... maybe they want us to use only with WSS pool now
    When you try to format from windows, it says that ReFS is not supported on that drive, so it's intended.
     
  8. Riemen

    Riemen MDL Novice

    Jul 23, 2009
    30
    0
    0
    Which features are you talking about? As far as I know, REFS is much more reliable and not slower as NTFS. I think there is no reason, not to choose REFS for your data-partition even on a workstation.
     
  9. Enigma256

    Enigma256 MDL Senior Member

    Jan 17, 2011
    354
    300
    10
    If it ain't broke...

    NTFS may be over 20 years old, but it's a veeeeeeery good file system. It was very much ahead of its time and was designed to be both extensible (e.g., look at how EFS was later added to it) and future-proof.

    There's a reason we still use FAT32 (or something similar like exFAT): because there are trade-offs. Going from FAT to a modern file system like NTFS (yes, NTFS is still modern) gives you more features, but also increases the complexity, the amount of code needed to support it, the overhead, etc., so FAT still exists for use in many scenarios.

    Don't automatically think that "newer is better". There are always tradeoffs, and ReFS is not better than NTFS--it's missing a bunch of things that NTFS could do.

    (I did a comparative study of various file systems when I was in college. Most "new" file systems are really just minor tweaks of each other. Far better to just do iterative improvements to NTFS as Microsoft has done over the years than to throw it all out for some crazy white elephant idea like that idiotic project that they had back for Longhorn.)
     
  10. srisan

    srisan MDL Member

    Sep 5, 2012
    150
    27
    10
  11. Neyder

    Neyder MDL Novice

    Oct 28, 2012
    12
    5
    0
    #11 Neyder, Aug 30, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 20, 2017
    No, use recovery mode:

     
  12. moderate

    moderate MDL Guru

    Aug 31, 2009
    2,636
    2,143
    90
    With W8-0 I've transformed all my non-system drives to ReFS (about 16TB in total).

    ReFS doesn't need CHKDSK and offline checking, it has autocorrection and benchmarks showed about 2-5% speed bonus.
    When the drive is faulty, NTFS drive CHKDSK can completely destroy the data, but ReFS drive will stay intact.

    In fact ReFS is only thing, why W8-0 is worth.
    If it is crippled in W8-1 (by checking drive for RAID), there is no reason to update.

    I'll also try old ReFS files from W8-0 in time...
     
  13. moderate

    moderate MDL Guru

    Aug 31, 2009
    2,636
    2,143
    90
    #13 moderate, Aug 30, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2013
    (OP)
    I just tried to import ReFS drive created in W8-0 to W8-1 (with applied urefs.dll, refs.sys and reg)...

    It can be read and written, but not formatted (even reformatted) to ReFS...
    (This means that upgrade to W8-1 is possible, but not very lucky.)

    Now I will test to import such ReFS drive to clean W8-1...

    I don't get it, what MS tries to show us... ://

    Update 1: W8-1 is able to read and write to ReFS disks even without urefs.dll and refs.sys files regged...

    Update 2: The error message "ReFS file system is not supported on this device." is also independent on refs.sys and urefs.dll registration, so the drive check is located elsewhere (in format command)?
    Maybe replacing of format command will help...
     
  14. moderate

    moderate MDL Guru

    Aug 31, 2009
    2,636
    2,143
    90
    #14 moderate, Aug 30, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2013
    (OP)
    ...so today task is to replace format.com or ulib.dll or ifsutil.dll files...

    -from W8-0 b9200
    -from W8-1 Betas
    -or from W8-1 boot.wim or WinRE (if the files are different there) :)
     
  15. Heidegger

    Heidegger MDL Member

    Mar 17, 2008
    136
    51
    10
    Can the Windows bootloader load wims/isos from a refs drive?
     
  16. moderate

    moderate MDL Guru

    Aug 31, 2009
    2,636
    2,143
    90
    Files:

    22. 08. 2013 14:39 14˙176 ext-ms-win-fs-clfs-l1-1-0.dll
    22. 08. 2013 13:42 3˙584 ext-ms-win-fsutilext-ifsutil-l1-1-0.dll
    22. 08. 2013 13:42 3˙072 ext-ms-win-fsutilext-ulib-l1-1-0.dll
    22. 08. 2013 12:01 34˙304 format.com
    22. 08. 2013 12:01 209˙920 ifsutil.dll
    22. 08. 2013 13:31 13˙824 ifsutilx.dll
    22. 08. 2013 12:03 161˙280 ulib.dll

    ...are same in boot.wim, winre.wim and install.wim (as expected), so setting to override "drivecheck" in WinRE has to be elsewhere...
     
  17. PGHammer

    PGHammer MDL Senior Member

    Oct 14, 2011
    361
    73
    10
    The bigger advantage FAT32 (and even FAT) has has to do with smaller partition and drive sizes (by smaller, I mean 1 GB or less) and certain drive types (flash drives) that are commonplace in the smaller sizes.

    However, above 1 GB, neither FAT or FAT32 has any advantage over NTFS - things get flipped at that barrier.

    The "idiotic project" (an object-oriented filesystem) actually predates NTFS, and had its roots in HPFS (the High Performance File System) from the original (jointly IBM and Microsoft) OS/2. However, even ReFS is of little use on the desktop, and especially not for bootable partitions, as the point of efficiency for ReFS is too LARGE compared to common partition OR drive sizes for desktops. (When did the use of NTFS in NT take off, despite it being the default from the beginning? It only took off when both common drive sizes and common PARTITION sizes obsolesced FAT/FAT32 - basically, when the 2.1 GB barrier became too constricting. That was when even the die-hards that insisted on staying with FAT and FAT32 - remember, until XP, any version of NT could boot a FAT partition - woke up and smelled the coffee.) Servers and NAS have a use for ReFS; their drive and partition sizes - mostly due to use of RAID - can grow to the NTFS partition ceiling with little difficulty. However, such is not common on desktops - even in the most capacious tower cases - or even with desktop NAS and desktop SANs, RAID or no RAID. Notice that I didn't say that is impossible - I know better. However, it is highly improbable still, due to expense.)

    That's why I'm waiting for Server 2012R2 to leak. First off, it will support ReFS natively - for storage spaces, not boot partitions - and you can also create ReFS-based VHDs. Second, the hardware requirements are identical to that of Server 2008R2 and Server 2012, and Windows 7/8; in some areas (Hyper-V, for example), the requirements are less restrictive - not more. However, the biggest benefits (from what I've seen) of Server 2012R2 will belong to the server-OS-as-workstation-OS crowd - and support of ReFS is actually among the smallest of advantages there. One thing that the server-OS-as-workstation-OS crowd pioneered is stripping Windows Server of services not needed by workstation/desktop users. Here's the trick of Server 2012R2 (and, to a lesser extent, Server 2012 itself) - there's far less need to strip anything. Both Server 2012 and 2012R2 are scarily efficient in terms of CPU horsepower usage - in fact, outside of gaming use, both are actually more efficient than Windows 8 or 8.1. That scary efficiency and capability breadth lend itself to a new use for the server-OS-powered workstation - the hybrid. That IS something that has been in demand, and for years; the closest outside of Windows to a hybrid OS has been - amusingly - OS X, with PC-BSD a close second. The new features of Server 2012R2 actually play more into the hybrid role - though a lot are also useful for more general-purpose servers, hybrid servers are more likely to leverage them.
     
  18. JamesG269

    JamesG269 MDL Novice

    Dec 16, 2011
    48
    6
    0
    I'm using ReFS on 14TBs, originally created in Windows 2012 Server, I like the file and metadata checksumming, to make sure my files do not become corrupt (and I have backups if they do.) Just a tip for people who use ReFS, formatting with: "format drive:\ /q /fs:ReFS /I:enable" will enable file checksumming and copy-on-write to go with the default metadata checksumming/copy-on-write. It slows performance but is nice for data integrity.
     
  19. moderate

    moderate MDL Guru

    Aug 31, 2009
    2,636
    2,143
    90
    #19 moderate, Aug 31, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2013
    (OP)
    Is this recovery boot-disk you had mentioned b9600 (from W8-1)? (So in other words, did you tested, that v6-3-9600-16384 boot-disk will format ReFS?)
    Because I think it won't. IMO only b9200 recovery disk (with added refs.sys and urefs.dll) will format ReFS...
     
  20. moderate

    moderate MDL Guru

    Aug 31, 2009
    2,636
    2,143
    90
    #20 moderate, Aug 31, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 20, 2017
    (OP)
    Problem is IMHO as this:

    There is new procedure in format.com called:
    Code:
    QueryDataRedudancyCount
    which checks, if drive is mirrored (RAID 1), if it is so, it will allow (together with registered refs.sys and urefs.dll) formatting ReFS.
    OldFormatB9200.jpg

    So we need to c*ra*ck format.com to proceed or gain some 3rd party format utility...

    BTW: If b9600 WinRE is able to format ReFS (I didn't checked, as I have no hdd to play with and I don't want to test it in VM.), there could be some setting to override the check.