Do you think a wall on the border with Mexico can stop the immigrants?

Discussion in 'Serious Discussion' started by Katzenfreund, Jan 26, 2017.

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Will the wall be effective against illegal immigrants?

  1. Yes, the wall will be largely effective

    15 vote(s)
    30.0%
  2. It will only have a small effect not worth the cost

    18 vote(s)
    36.0%
  3. No, it will be a monumental failure

    17 vote(s)
    34.0%
  1. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    JFK, great big majority of those are highly motivated, ready to forego everything so their kids could have a better life, so they are way more law abiding than most Americans, simply not being able to afford to be reckless with other people's rights and breaking laws, for fear of being caught.

    A lot of them are hard working, doing jobs they are way overqualified to do but...

    And no, they do not come to the US to burst in on your dinner party (no, they are not that stupid or presumptuous)!!! Moreover, most of them are in the USofA knowing full well they will be working to get that party better for you, without having a party for themselves, in fact knowing full well they will have nothing but hardship! All to better their kids, they hope.

    And most of them are not having any benefits, even though many of them are contributing to the legal Americans' benefits, as can be seen from some of those links above.

    C'mon, guys, get real and give credit where credit is due, at least minimally - these guys are highly motivated, work for next to nothing and that helps keep the standards (especially of middle classes!) higher, services better and so on.
     
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  2. amajmon

    amajmon MDL Senior Member

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    Wall can't stop but mine field can :D.
     
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  3. JFKI

    JFKI MDL Expert

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    Yet the majority expect, and get the welfare, housing, and health benefits which is payed by MY tax dollar so in effect YES they ARE taking food off MY table.
     
  4. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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  5. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    How do you know that? Have you conducted any research on the subject? Do you know "majority" of "them"?

    How can that be the case without having a legal social security number? And if you are flagged - you have seen above what happens, so most are not working like that but without any rights... And even if they have an "illegal" social security number - they do not benefit from their labour - others do, i.e. legal USofA citizens benefit from their labour. Ergo, WTH?!?

    I mean, the Right was campaigning NOT to legalise them so they can not get "benefits", which means they are trying to force them 1) out and 2) if they are here - to have no rights.

    How "humane" is that? And how wise, given the US industry needs a lot of labour force, else they obviously wouldn't be in the USofA - like in any other developed, industrial nation...???
     
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  6. Joe C

    Joe C MDL Guru

    Jan 12, 2012
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    gorski, why do you attempt to understand the thinking of U.S. citizens without being a U.S. citizen yourself?
     
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  7. JFKI

    JFKI MDL Expert

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    My work puts me real (too) close to the social services field.
    Do you really want to know the ratio of illegals vs Americans getting services here ?

    It is bad enough that that division was forced to hire Spanish speaking employees, and doctors... Several years ago.

    Sorry I don't speak Spanish so no.. I don't KNOW the majority of them but I see the new faces every day.
     
  8. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    JFKI, is that a no, no research, nothing but anecdotal "evidence" but what one could call an "emotional response"? Not a good thing, for sure.

    Joe, this is universal - you may have noticed the "need for labour in any industrially developed nation", hence they are there...

    So, how far do we want to drive this "this place is too small for you, guys" scaremongering based on prejudices?

    Shall we say, "Look, this guy may have taken Oscar Peterson's livelihood, if.... So, we better deport him!"??? https://www.jesusmolina.org/videosydiscografia - see "Back in Indiana", for instance...

    And if you do, how far do we go back to stating that all of you are there "illegally"?
     
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  9. Joe C

    Joe C MDL Guru

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  10. JFKI

    JFKI MDL Expert

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    Gorski, Since I have to go to work and you obviously don't, why don't you spend some time today searching the HUD website and the congressional records website for aggregate data on the actual percentages you seek... On a state by state basis. ;)

    Edit to add: It would behoove dhjohns to do the same.
     
  11. Michaela Joy

    Michaela Joy MDL Crazy Lady

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    @JFKI: Sorry to say, that is an American phenomena. The majority of immigrants, illegal or otherwise, do not come here with the expectation of receiving welfare or any kind of benefits. They come to work for whatever crappy wage they can get, simply to support their families.

    That doesn't give anybody the right to break the law. If you break the law, you should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

    It is the responsibility of the Local governments to create jobs and training programs so that we can elevate the impoverished to a place where they can sustain themselves. It is the responsibility of the impoverished to find these opportunities and reap the benefits of them. Unfortunately, these programs are often hidden from view and difficult to find. That's where community advocates come in. They act as the bridge between city and state government and the community. They are sharp, and they are compassionate.

    As PointZero pointed out, if -all- illegals are being targeted, then it's -not- racially motivated. It's motivated by finances, and not being able to pay for the social service systems that were designed for the -legal- aliens and citizens of the US.

    And what about the Senior Citizens in America? What do they do? The Social Service systems are so overloaded that they 'fall through the cracks' and are made to wait for, or are denied benefits. And they need them more than anybody else. They've contributed to the positive growth and prosperity of this country and should be rewarded.

    Who is fighting for them?

    This country is moving away from the Globalist agenda. That's not to say that we are condoning Isolationism; not by a long shot. What we are saying is that it's time to start taking care of our own people. There are starving people all over the world. If each country took care of its' own problems, people wouldn't be trying to escape the squalor in which they live.

    Don't give me this garbage about how America caused all of the problems in the world. Countries and governments that have been around a lot longer than the USA have committed their fair share of atrocities in the name of prosperity and building a better country. If you didn't rape and oppress your own people, they wouldn't be coming here.

    Clean up your own mess. Then, people wouldn't be trying to escape.
     
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  12. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    You misunderstood: the need for workers in industrially developed countries is universal, else they would not be here...

    You know, you darn capitalists can understand that :D - the law of supply demand - if Americans don't supply the labour needed, well then...
     
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  13. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    Sure, MJ but

    1) no one said "all the problems of the world"

    2) the US is the only super-power and they do have a very aggressive foreign policy, usually benefiting American corporations, with many s**tty consequences in all kind of directions...

    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=us foreign aid of wheat to colombia and its consequences&t=opera&ia=web

    I will point out, one more time, to Colombia and US foreign aid donations of wheat and forcing the local farmers to "other crops" to survive!

    https://chomsky.info/200108__/

    Here is a snipet:

    So, I would advise informing oneself - regardless of the issue - from alternative, critical sources, not just the same source that is the source of the trouble... ;)
     
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  14. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    #374 gorski, Mar 6, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2017
    This is not the case with today's US wages - you are living in a cloud-cookoo land.

    It used to be the case before the Conservatives got in and didn't "update" the minimum wage law, then deregulated all markets and so on...

    As for criminals - out, no bother, so long as s/he had a fair and proper court case heard...

    But... Very emotional, I must say... This agenda of sweeping everybody under the carpet of Jose Publico, the criminal is... yayks!!!
     
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  15. Michaela Joy

    Michaela Joy MDL Crazy Lady

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    @gorski: I -AM- a critical, factual source. I grew up in, and am still living in one of the poorest places in the USA.

    At present, Williamsburg's wealth is in bars and restaurants, designed to cater to people who come from other states.

    The poor (mostly Hispanic and black..erm...African American) are being displaced in droves to make way for the 'new thing'. Most of them are seniors. Many of them are immigrants who -LEGALLY- came to this country for a chance to live a decent, prosperous life. Some of them came here to escape Communism and Socialism (Yes, the Williamsburg projects were at one time, predominately made up of Jews who were forced to escape the horrors of Nazi Germany and Communist Russia.)

    I grew up with these people. I heard their stories. I saw the tattoos. So I'm not sharing some metaphoric tale, based on conjecture or media produced drivel; I'm speaking from first-hand accounts.

    Let me also say that I'm not trivializing your experiences. I don't know what horrors you or anybody here has witnessed. But I do know what others in this place have witnessed.

    So don't try to take that away from me.
     
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  16. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    MJ, please have a look to what I have responded - it was not WWII story (as lamentable as that one was and as indispensable the US role in it in defeating Nazi-Fascists) but a much more recent story, "in America's back yard", which has to do - directly - with the US foreign policies, as documented...
     
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  17. Michaela Joy

    Michaela Joy MDL Crazy Lady

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    @gorski: I suggest you reread my post. I am not talking about post WWII refugees. I only mentioned them because I've had the opportunity to grow up among them. I've also had a glimpse into their struggle and their pain.

    I am talking about the Zionist gentrification of Brooklyn, with no regard for the poor immigrants and seniors who are presently living here.

    I know this as a fact. I'm one of them. An Italian-American Senior Citizen, scratching and clawing for her own life. I also speak Spanish and have heard the stories from other Hispanics, spoken in their own native tongues as well as in English.

    If given a choice between defending the Hispanics who are legally here, and the illegal Hispanics who are not, I will -ALWAYS- stand on the side of the legal Hispanics.
     
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  18. alextheg

    alextheg MDL Expert

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    Far be it for me to prevent anyone from having a fair debate, however let's stay on topic and keep it friendly. Flaming each other won't be tolerated, should it continue we'll close the thread.
     
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  19. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    #379 gorski, Mar 6, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2017
    Aha, which "middle class" couple is that? It sounds hunky-dory indeed, hypothetical as it is, but where is the reality of that? How many ACTUAL "Muricans" can ACTUALLY afford all that? Give us the income that CAN afford that? Not the mythical "average" US income, since we know how that works, what with the top 0.1% of "honest Muricans" way "up there"... How high up the "middle class" are they? Which profession(s)? But details, no nonsense.

    Ever heard of Neo-Liberalism and "diminishing middle class", ever increasing wage gap, huge fees for higher education and so on in the USofA? Bernie is talking rubbish, is he, when he points out to those issues and good paying jobs going abroad, while the minimum wage is way too low to do any of the above? And that's what - not true? He's inventing things, is he?

    Well, if you were a judge - it makes sense now... Cloud-cukoo-land indeed...

    Yeah, so 2 points:

    1) Who is defending such a Jose Publico? Who in this thread in doing that? DO NOT INSINUATE because this is really insulting!!! I am talking about SUBSTANTIAL INSULTS, which are a FORGERY of what I am talking about! You are IGNORING what I and others have said and you are having a "conversation" with your own prejudices and agenda. These are not my principles, these are not my ideas!!! You created a straw-man!!! But hey, Judge, don't let that stop you in your "fairness and dispensing of justice"...:rolleyes: Should I report your post?!? Go running to your momma next time, instead of BEING FAIR and NOT MISREPRESENTING OTHER PEOPLE'S VIEWS TO SUIT YOUR AGENDA AND PREJUDICES!

    2) "Muricans" made it possible. System made it possible. For some! Most likely, very few in numbers - at least who are "violent multiple offenders", I am sure. Unless you have something to back this story of yours up, which shows how this "flooding the US labour market with violent offenders working with fake IDs" is actually happening. Do you? And what does that tell you of the USofA, when "Muricans" are in such a business, not securing their systems against such forgeries properly? Sure, blame it on a few violent Mexicans, using the system to their own advantage. Shock, horror!

    Of course such people ought to be found out and deported. Who has anything against that? Knocking on an open door is a hobby of yours or something? Honestly...:rolleyes:

    Seriously, if you were a judge - with this spelling and capitalisation of just about anything - I despair at your poor education. I question it seriously!

    I also question the choice of your politicians to attack, as it is obviously loaded to the brim with specific agenda and prejudices. Period! Justice and fairness from you? Heh, perhaps if you actually dug into the Republicans equally, maybe - but as it is, it looks to me like a god damn joke!!!

    If that is too much for you, I repeat, honestly speaking, I am cringing here...

    On the other hand, what you post - as can be seen above - makes no sense at all!!! UNLESS one is a seriously prejudiced conservative with an agenda to match.

    But "below the belt hit" - which is complete rubbish!!! - about my language (just look at yours above!) is a really poor show! In fact, we differ in policies/ideologies/worldview/principles and it is those that you can't/won't make an effort towards understanding. You need "enemies" to be able to function - nothing better to do, I guess...

    I do not RESPECT your heavily conservative and therefore biased opinions, just as much you do not respect mine. What's the problem? Hypocrite!!!!

    FYI, as a Democratic Leftie I campaigned in my own old country for the rights of people such as yourself, when it was dangerous to do so! And as soon as they were in power, they abolished my right to differ. So much for the likes of Conservatives "respecting" other people's rights. It shows in every sentence you write!

    Hold on a minute: aren't you the guy who professed a non possibility of you ever marrying an indigenous woman in Mexico? Take a walk, buster!!!:mad: You've been outed! By yourself!

    Indeed, if it means conservative education without ever even making a minimal effort to "hear the other side"! Something like this: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...01506/anti-intellectualism-is-killing-america

    Or: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/anti-intellectualism/

    Better still: http://www.rawstory.com/2016/11/the...ntalist-rural-america-a-view-from-the-inside/

    I wouldn't dream of "negating" what you said in any way. I believe you. Heck, I am one of those - and possibly worse. And while I had direct experience of nastiest stuff Humans can muster and release upon each other - even though I didn't need to - I also heard many similar and even worse stories than mine (many times worse, in fact, in some cases), while trying to find my way in all this mess with the ex-YU war I escaped as a political asylum seeker etc.

    But there are other points here, aren't there?

    1) USofA government responsibility of creating conditions, due to their foreign policies, as documented, for a huge influx of immigrants of all sorts, having created serious instability in the region etc. Including Jose Publico with guns and drugs etc. (Btw, those were also used by the US officials for nefarious purposes, remember? Iran, contras, ghettos, money laundering, drugs, arms and ammunition etc.)

    2) A or B is not the only choice, is it? I mean, there are other options already on the table. And even if there weren't any - we could create new options, could we not? We are Humans, capable of creativity, with imagination, free to think critically and so... :)
     
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  20. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    Why? You ran out of "fairness"? "Just representations of your opponents' views" is too much to ask from you?

    OK, so stay out of it. The rest of us, at least mostly, can stil have a rational debate...
     
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