Do you think a wall on the border with Mexico can stop the immigrants?

Discussion in 'Serious Discussion' started by Katzenfreund, Jan 26, 2017.

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Will the wall be effective against illegal immigrants?

  1. Yes, the wall will be largely effective

    15 vote(s)
    30.0%
  2. It will only have a small effect not worth the cost

    18 vote(s)
    36.0%
  3. No, it will be a monumental failure

    17 vote(s)
    34.0%
  1. Joe C

    Joe C MDL Guru

    Jan 12, 2012
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    If Trump wipes his butt with his right hand instead of his left, you can bet the media will criticize him for it. Does Trump deserve the type of criticism from the media? Most likely so because he's done a lot to piss them off and they're going to make sure he knows it
     
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  2. Katzenfreund

    Katzenfreund MDL Expert

    Jul 15, 2016
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    It seems Trump can hold his own against the press. He can selectively exclude from press conferences any media he doesn’t like, which damages their reporting abilityt and reduces public demand for them.

    This may seem undemocratic discrimination, but I suppose he may be somehow justified in discriminating against those that discriminate against them.

    Something similar happened where I live between the press and the police. The former were using every opportunity to defame the latter, so the police stopped feeding them with news stories. In the end they had to turn down their tone.
     
  3. Joe C

    Joe C MDL Guru

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    It can be very dangerous for the govt to attempt media control, in the U.S. I feel that most citizens do value a free press very highly but at the same time, we also value an accuracy for reporting of the free press too
     
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  4. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    Ermmm, how do you know which hand he uses for such intensely intimate affairs, Joe? :rolleyes: :D

    My point, seriously speaking, would be that the media is seriously screwed towards those who own them - and Trump is one of the corporate class, as we can see from the cabinet he established - worse still, from whom he wanted to appoint and couldn't because of screaming conflict of interest, lying, scheming etc. etc.!

    This "show" is pretty ridiculous, all in all...
     
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  5. Joe C

    Joe C MDL Guru

    Jan 12, 2012
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    I heard it from the media!
     
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  6. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    #426 gorski, Mar 12, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 20, 2017
    Heh, it sounds more like you're "hearing voices"... :D

    Something delusional like this, maybe:

     
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  7. Joe C

    Joe C MDL Guru

    Jan 12, 2012
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    [​IMG]
     
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  8. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    One day you - guys defending Trump now - will all wake up with a huge headache and then...

    Well, I bet everybody else will be to be blame...
     
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  9. Joe C

    Joe C MDL Guru

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    Well I do have to admit that blaming everybody else would be true to the Trump style
     
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  10. Katzenfreund

    Katzenfreund MDL Expert

    Jul 15, 2016
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    Blaming others is neither new, nor uncommon, in fact that’s what others are there for in this world. After all, to err is human and to blame others even more so.

    Continuing from my previous post on Trump vs The Press, freedom of the press is certainly essential part of democracy and keeps politicians on their toes. But too much power for the press is equally undesirable, as it can misinform, destroy people and try to dictate who will be elected.

    So a balance of power is a kind of optimum situation, where the government also has weapons, and in the end the press are free to say what they like, but if they tell lies, they are accountable.
     
  11. Michaela Joy

    Michaela Joy MDL Crazy Lady

    Jul 26, 2012
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    There's not a single country in the world where the government doesn't have control over what the press can and can not say. Especially in times of war.

    The USA is no different. Unfortunately, what's happened is an agenda has reared its' ugly head; and that is globalism.

    We are not, nor will we allow ourselves to become a borderless country.

    And that's why Trump won. Because He did not advocate Globalism. Plain and simple. The people do not want open borders. Especially if it means loss of jobs. They'd rather pay more for exports and allow the Capitalists do what they do best. Regardless of the outcome.

    So, for those who envision socialism and globalism taking hold in America, forget it. The people have spoken.
    The ones who are squealing the loudest are the ones whose agenda has been thwarted.

    That's always been a given. The loser complains the most.

    From my standpoint, it is what it is. I'll survive.
    It's what I do. It's what we all do. We manage to make it and survive.

    Time for popcorn, as I sit back and watch the show.
     
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  12. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    https://www.washingtonpost.com/grap...more-top-stories_tugriver826pm:homepage/story

    [h=1]In a place of need, an unhealthy contradiction[/h]
    They are poor, sick and voted for Trump. What will happen to them without Obamacare?
    Says Bernie:

     
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  13. Katzenfreund

    Katzenfreund MDL Expert

    Jul 15, 2016
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    Health insurance is of course distinct from the wall, though it involves Trump’s controversial mentality and decisions.

    But since it has been bought up, I’ll state briefly my convictions as an outsider, who can compare with other countries. So all these plans by US governments are barking at the wrong tree, not attacking the underlying problem, but merely constituting different ways of distributing the excessive, undiminished costs.

    The root of the problem lies in medical care costing far too much in the US. Doctors are grossly overpaid, medicines expensive, hospitals unaffordable etc. Costs are further pushed up by ridiculous court decisions about compensations in cases of mistakes, which require doctors, hospitals and drug companies to pay large part of their income for their own insurance.

    Until all this gross excess of costs is reduced, no medical plan will solve the problem.
     
  14. Joe C

    Joe C MDL Guru

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  15. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    No, Katz, with all due respect, we are not yet at the root, if we put it like that, sorry...

    To fully understand the issues here a little bit of historical perspective is useful: in Feudal times the top estate was amalgamated with power. It was direct, it came by birth, not by capability and hard work etc. The odds were stacked against such efforts.

    Capitalism/Modernity establishes itself as a society based in reason, justice, fairness and initially even in brotherhood (fairness and brotherhood were abandoned very quickly upon seizing the strings of power, of course), as opposed to its predecessor, Feudalism, a society of injustice. A fairer society meant that an idiot (literally) can not rule by virtue of his birth, that one must prove oneself by his abilities and hard work. In effect, a fallen feudal lord is still a lord and a different set of rights is valid for him. But a fallen capitalist becomes a proletarian. Universal suffrage was on the cards, one man one vote system of electing one's representatives, struggle to abolish slavery was possible, women were to be seen as equals etc. etc. That was the basis of Modernity's legitimacy. Severing a direct link of power between the accident of one's birth and power etc.

    However, over a period of time these things have been turned on its head. The Capital still does not have direct path to power but it does influence it beyond measure!

    The root of the problem is in the US system of financing of political parties, i.e. the mechanisms by which Capital makes sure its (partial) interests are being pushed to the top of the pyramid, so they set the agenda, they write laws, they redistribute the cake the society makes in such way they get the lion's share of it - whichever political party wins power at the USofA election box. (Elsewhere may be very similar or much better, it matter not - but we are talking about the USofA now.)

    In effect, the process of electing one's representatives - in the USofA system - is inextricably dependent on the the same corporations, financial institutions, bond dealers etc. funding both parties and then writing the USofA laws, ensuring their interests dominate and they are free to exploit the USofA at will, as well as the world, by default, to their own advantage.

    Democracy is - broadly speaking - constant renegotiating of the deal between many interests/classes and if one side manages to build their own into every nook and cranny of the system in order to exploit it - we have the mess we have at the moment.

    Why is this important even for non-USofA citizens? Because the USofA, by sheer virtue of their power and reach in the world - made it our own business by meddling in affairs of everyone, thanx to their superpower status, their dependence on oil/energy supplies from around te world and their imperial position in the contemporary world.

    That is just a factual description, not yet an interpretation. Once we start going beyond these elementary facts we can talk of different ideologies, world-views, strategies to make things fairer and more just [or the opposite] etc.

    I would mention Hegel here, as the most relevant thinker we have on these issues. As he would put it: the root of evil in the world is particular becoming (or forcing itself in place of) general interest. In vernacular: "Me, myself, I"!!!

    Until and unless we manage to sever the undue influence on the political and money-making processes by the Capital (and its many masks), we shall suffer under their yoke!

    It doesn't matter in which sphere of society, since they will all bear their mark - right now it's "austerity", "isolation", "Amurica first", i.e. "Me. myself, I" or "emolument principle is why I am here" - it's good to be immoral, act illegally, be in a position where you can stack the cards heavily in your own direction and who gives a damn about the law, fair-play, justice or brother/sister-hood...

    Swell! Whomever defends this has no idea whether they are coming or going. Unless one belongs to the 0.1% of those extremely rich individuals/families pulling the strings from behind the scenes, of course. But I doubt there are such persons here. Now, maybe their stooges are here - but I ain't one of them!!!

    The French have a word to describe a person who has no idea which class s/he belongs to and acts directly opposite his/her own interests by electing her/his class enemies to rule allegedly in his/her interest: déclassé - that is what voters in America today have done - if they do not belong to the top few of their society!!! Pitiful!!!
     
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  16. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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  17. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    This is useful here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Zinn

    http://www.historyisaweapon.com/zinnapeopleshistory.html

    https://www.americanswhotellthetruth.org/portraits/howard-zinn

    Richard Wolff reminds us that in 2010 authorities in Tuscon, Arizona legislated against "Mexican-American studies", forbidding it outright in schools where the majority of students were Hispanics. Dirty conscience due to a terrible record of successive US Governments, the study was deemed "racist":sneaky: and "socially dangerous":confused: - because it was "causing ethnic divisions", even "secessionist ideas":eek: - while never abolishing Asian, Black and Native American Studies.:rolleyes:

    Now, could this enormous myth about Mexican immigration have anything to do with the not so distant US - Mexico history?
     
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  18. wazzock

    wazzock MDL Senior Member

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    ask Redroad and his mob what they think about immigrants. bloody white people coming over here stealing our land,,,,,,,, :laie:
     
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  19. PointZero

    PointZero MDL Member

    Oct 5, 2011
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    I remember that case. I was surprised that our state went after a seemingly harmless course being taught in high school, but then the contents of the course were made public and I was more surprised that it was even allowed to begin with.

    It apparently was very radical- as in "the government should be overthrown" radical. They weren't presenting just facts in the class, it was one-sided, anti-American propaganda that basically taught students to hate white people and bred racial segregation.

    The law that ended those courses was enacted in 2010 and it's endured many lawsuits/appeals since. The courts haven't found it to be unconstitutional (at least, not yet).

    This was the declaration of policy of the bill introduced before it was passed into law: "The legislature finds and declares that public school pupils should be taught to treat and value each other as individuals and not be taught to resent or hate other races or classes of people."

    Here's just one article from back in 2010 that talks about the coursework at that school: http://archive.azcentral.com/arizon.../06/20/20100620maceachern-tucson-studies.html

    You can read the actual state law that banned the course here: http://www.azleg.gov/viewdocument/?docName=http://www.azleg.gov/ars/15/00112.htm
     
  20. highpoint

    highpoint MDL Novice

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    The wall is not suppose to stop "immigration" ... it is meant to reduce the amount drug trafficking and most, if not all, drugs come through the Mexican border.

    How the media spins your tiny brains.