Do you think a wall on the border with Mexico can stop the immigrants?

Discussion in 'Serious Discussion' started by Katzenfreund, Jan 26, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
?

Will the wall be effective against illegal immigrants?

  1. Yes, the wall will be largely effective

    15 vote(s)
    30.0%
  2. It will only have a small effect not worth the cost

    18 vote(s)
    36.0%
  3. No, it will be a monumental failure

    17 vote(s)
    34.0%
  1. Katzenfreund

    Katzenfreund MDL Expert

    Jul 15, 2016
    1,375
    832
    60
    Health insurance is of course distinct from the wall, though it involves Trump’s controversial mentality and decisions.

    But since it has been bought up, I’ll state briefly my convictions as an outsider, who can compare with other countries. So all these plans by US governments are barking at the wrong tree, not attacking the underlying problem, but merely constituting different ways of distributing the excessive, undiminished costs.

    The root of the problem lies in medical care costing far too much in the US. Doctors are grossly overpaid, medicines expensive, hospitals unaffordable etc. Costs are further pushed up by ridiculous court decisions about compensations in cases of mistakes, which require doctors, hospitals and drug companies to pay large part of their income for their own insurance.

    Until all this gross excess of costs is reduced, no medical plan will solve the problem.
     
  2. Joe C

    Joe C MDL Guru

    Jan 12, 2012
    3,525
    2,089
    120
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  3. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
    5,076
    1,337
    180
    No, Katz, with all due respect, we are not yet at the root, if we put it like that, sorry...

    To fully understand the issues here a little bit of historical perspective is useful: in Feudal times the top estate was amalgamated with power. It was direct, it came by birth, not by capability and hard work etc. The odds were stacked against such efforts.

    Capitalism/Modernity establishes itself as a society based in reason, justice, fairness and initially even in brotherhood (fairness and brotherhood were abandoned very quickly upon seizing the strings of power, of course), as opposed to its predecessor, Feudalism, a society of injustice. A fairer society meant that an idiot (literally) can not rule by virtue of his birth, that one must prove oneself by his abilities and hard work. In effect, a fallen feudal lord is still a lord and a different set of rights is valid for him. But a fallen capitalist becomes a proletarian. Universal suffrage was on the cards, one man one vote system of electing one's representatives, struggle to abolish slavery was possible, women were to be seen as equals etc. etc. That was the basis of Modernity's legitimacy. Severing a direct link of power between the accident of one's birth and power etc.

    However, over a period of time these things have been turned on its head. The Capital still does not have direct path to power but it does influence it beyond measure!

    The root of the problem is in the US system of financing of political parties, i.e. the mechanisms by which Capital makes sure its (partial) interests are being pushed to the top of the pyramid, so they set the agenda, they write laws, they redistribute the cake the society makes in such way they get the lion's share of it - whichever political party wins power at the USofA election box. (Elsewhere may be very similar or much better, it matter not - but we are talking about the USofA now.)

    In effect, the process of electing one's representatives - in the USofA system - is inextricably dependent on the the same corporations, financial institutions, bond dealers etc. funding both parties and then writing the USofA laws, ensuring their interests dominate and they are free to exploit the USofA at will, as well as the world, by default, to their own advantage.

    Democracy is - broadly speaking - constant renegotiating of the deal between many interests/classes and if one side manages to build their own into every nook and cranny of the system in order to exploit it - we have the mess we have at the moment.

    Why is this important even for non-USofA citizens? Because the USofA, by sheer virtue of their power and reach in the world - made it our own business by meddling in affairs of everyone, thanx to their superpower status, their dependence on oil/energy supplies from around te world and their imperial position in the contemporary world.

    That is just a factual description, not yet an interpretation. Once we start going beyond these elementary facts we can talk of different ideologies, world-views, strategies to make things fairer and more just [or the opposite] etc.

    I would mention Hegel here, as the most relevant thinker we have on these issues. As he would put it: the root of evil in the world is particular becoming (or forcing itself in place of) general interest. In vernacular: "Me, myself, I"!!!

    Until and unless we manage to sever the undue influence on the political and money-making processes by the Capital (and its many masks), we shall suffer under their yoke!

    It doesn't matter in which sphere of society, since they will all bear their mark - right now it's "austerity", "isolation", "Amurica first", i.e. "Me. myself, I" or "emolument principle is why I am here" - it's good to be immoral, act illegally, be in a position where you can stack the cards heavily in your own direction and who gives a damn about the law, fair-play, justice or brother/sister-hood...

    Swell! Whomever defends this has no idea whether they are coming or going. Unless one belongs to the 0.1% of those extremely rich individuals/families pulling the strings from behind the scenes, of course. But I doubt there are such persons here. Now, maybe their stooges are here - but I ain't one of them!!!

    The French have a word to describe a person who has no idea which class s/he belongs to and acts directly opposite his/her own interests by electing her/his class enemies to rule allegedly in his/her interest: déclassé - that is what voters in America today have done - if they do not belong to the top few of their society!!! Pitiful!!!
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  4. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
    5,076
    1,337
    180
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  5. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
    5,076
    1,337
    180
    This is useful here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Zinn

    http://www.historyisaweapon.com/zinnapeopleshistory.html

    https://www.americanswhotellthetruth.org/portraits/howard-zinn

    Richard Wolff reminds us that in 2010 authorities in Tuscon, Arizona legislated against "Mexican-American studies", forbidding it outright in schools where the majority of students were Hispanics. Dirty conscience due to a terrible record of successive US Governments, the study was deemed "racist":sneaky: and "socially dangerous":confused: - because it was "causing ethnic divisions", even "secessionist ideas":eek: - while never abolishing Asian, Black and Native American Studies.:rolleyes:

    Now, could this enormous myth about Mexican immigration have anything to do with the not so distant US - Mexico history?
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  6. wazzock

    wazzock MDL Senior Member

    Oct 22, 2016
    337
    186
    10
    ask Redroad and his mob what they think about immigrants. bloody white people coming over here stealing our land,,,,,,,, :laie:
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  7. PointZero

    PointZero MDL Member

    Oct 5, 2011
    1,402
    3,749
    60
    I remember that case. I was surprised that our state went after a seemingly harmless course being taught in high school, but then the contents of the course were made public and I was more surprised that it was even allowed to begin with.

    It apparently was very radical- as in "the government should be overthrown" radical. They weren't presenting just facts in the class, it was one-sided, anti-American propaganda that basically taught students to hate white people and bred racial segregation.

    The law that ended those courses was enacted in 2010 and it's endured many lawsuits/appeals since. The courts haven't found it to be unconstitutional (at least, not yet).

    This was the declaration of policy of the bill introduced before it was passed into law: "The legislature finds and declares that public school pupils should be taught to treat and value each other as individuals and not be taught to resent or hate other races or classes of people."

    Here's just one article from back in 2010 that talks about the coursework at that school: http://archive.azcentral.com/arizon.../06/20/20100620maceachern-tucson-studies.html

    You can read the actual state law that banned the course here: http://www.azleg.gov/viewdocument/?docName=http://www.azleg.gov/ars/15/00112.htm
     
  8. highpoint

    highpoint MDL Novice

    Jul 6, 2014
    17
    3
    0
    The wall is not suppose to stop "immigration" ... it is meant to reduce the amount drug trafficking and most, if not all, drugs come through the Mexican border.

    How the media spins your tiny brains.
     
  9. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
    5,076
    1,337
    180
    No, it was way more than that and not just in terms of stopping "bad hombres"...
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  10. Michaela Joy

    Michaela Joy MDL Crazy Lady

    Jul 26, 2012
    4,076
    4,649
    150
    @gorski: That was and still is, the purpose of the wall. And it's not meant to smite Mexicans. Granted, some drugs come from Mexico (weed comes to mind, but there are others.)
    But most mules are from South America, running coke. And that's usually gang / cartel related.

    Do I have to tell you how much money, -UNTRACEABLE- money comes in when a shipment of pot or cocaine clears the border and gets sold in the US?

    Oh, this example shows how long talk of construction of a wall between Mexico and the USA has been going on, and it should clearly demonstrate that Trump did -NOT- start this. (MSM pinheads...)

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...od-up-to-reagan-it-can-stand-up-to-trump-too/

    If Mexico refuses to lift a finger to keep drugs from being smuggled across their northern borders, then we have to make it all but impossible for anyone to get in. Just to keep out the people who make it past the Mexican Authorities.

    If stray dogs are making it past your neighbors' fence and digging up your begonias because he refuses to fix it, then you have to install a better fence.

    Does that make sense?
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  11. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
    5,076
    1,337
    180
    Yeah, shame we can't read the texts themselves, but only "second hand accounts" of the texts discussed and no arguments against such thesis whatsoever, and we still do not see in those texts about the "questionable texts" where is the "definitive proof" this was not so, on the ground, in reality of "conquest and colonisation", from genocide onwards...

    Nice but - rather transparent...
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  12. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
    5,076
    1,337
    180
    MJ, if only US Gov didn't do it themselves and for a reason...

    Moreover, now that some weed is allowed in some states...

    Then, even if it is going to get harder - the demand is still going to be there and then there will be suppliers, one way or another...

    I don't think this will stop with the wall - it will go sideways, for as long as the root for it exists...
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  13. Michaela Joy

    Michaela Joy MDL Crazy Lady

    Jul 26, 2012
    4,076
    4,649
    150
    Yup. And when know how it's done (for whatever reason), I guess you'd want to keep it from being done to you and yours.

    Some states have legalized it, so, yeah. I guess their investment is being protected.

    That would be greed and craving possessions and power. I agree. But, apart from crashing society and starting over again, I see no solution.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  14. PointZero

    PointZero MDL Member

    Oct 5, 2011
    1,402
    3,749
    60
    I think an extended border wall will have little effect on drug trafficking. There's only so much a guy can haul on his back in desert areas. The large quantities are smuggled in vehicles through legal border crossings. There's also transport via air, boat and tunnels. Undocumented immigration will go down however.
     
  15. JFKI

    JFKI MDL Expert

    Oct 25, 2015
    1,098
    373
    60
    #455 JFKI, Mar 21, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 20, 2017
  16. PointZero

    PointZero MDL Member

    Oct 5, 2011
    1,402
    3,749
    60
  17. JFKI

    JFKI MDL Expert

    Oct 25, 2015
    1,098
    373
    60
  18. PointZero

    PointZero MDL Member

    Oct 5, 2011
    1,402
    3,749
    60
    I agree, but the "problem" is that there's a large demand for illegal marijuana consumption in the US.

    In AZ, pot is legal for medical purposes only. If it was available to everybody legally for recreational purposes and reasonably priced, that would eliminate the problem.

    Even in Colorado, where anybody can buy it, there still is a large black market for pot since the legal stuff is so expensive.

    I don't even smoke pot, but I think there'd be many benefits in legalizing it everywhere.
     
  19. JFKI

    JFKI MDL Expert

    Oct 25, 2015
    1,098
    373
    60
    That is the understatement of the year.

    Have not looked into the specifics, but every state which borders my state have passed laws on legalizing pot in one form or another. That is currently in legislation here also.

    Don't know about prices... At all. Supply seems to be high here though.

    I don't because my job is worth more, but I admit if I could without repercussions I would.
    I do agree that there are many benefits, however a few react adversely and it is those few who will eventually "ruin" it for everyone else, in my opinion.
     
  20. PointZero

    PointZero MDL Member

    Oct 5, 2011
    1,402
    3,749
    60
    My comment about the black market in Colorado was based on a news report I saw where a "drug dealer" in CO (whose identity was obscured) was asked about how his business was affected by the passing of the pot-friendly laws.

    This was on the one or two year anniversary of the laws being enacted. He said demand for his stuff had not decreased since the legal stuff was expensive and also that more people were now interested in using it.

    I have a friend who's bought in CO and he didn't seem to complain much about prices- he was just happy it was all legal. Pot tourism is probably a big money maker for CO (and the other states where's it legal), just like it is for Amsterdam.


    Regarding the few who might react adversely to legal pot- yes, some people wll have problems, but a bigger number of people have had problems with alcohol. Pot laws will need fine-tuning over time.

    We know what happened when alcohol was made illegal in the US back during Prohibition. I look at the prohibition on pot as the same situation- just legalize it, make money off the taxes, keep people out of jail and hopefully cut down on the black market.