If God is Omniscient then Human is not free.

Discussion in 'Serious Discussion' started by sid_16, Apr 9, 2013.

?

Free will doesn't exist If God is omniscient.

  1. If yes, why?

    33 vote(s)
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  2. If no, then how?

    38 vote(s)
    53.5%
  1. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    Some animals are superior to Humans in various ways and vice versa. Depends on the POV.

    However, we are interdependent and that leads some to posit an intersubjective paradigm (Subject - Subject, as opposed to Subject - Object, having seen modern "objectifying" bringing us to the brink of all-round-destruction). Habermas is one of those and he claims it starts with young Hegel. Just a pointer...

    Now, this is the best - if obviously not the only option - of Modernity/Enlightenment and we certainly can build on this. The other ones I see as cutting the branch we sit on.

    It doesn't mean we will give up our powers but we must become seriously and acutely aware of them (science and technology etc.) and reign in our power on various levels, making us legitimate, legal, moral etc. guardians of Earth and Solar system, non-destructive, which we are NOT at the moment.

    Capitalism is just one possible way of being and obviously a very destructive one, in oh so many ways, given it is based on principles of domination and exploitation of the "other" (body dominated and exploited by spirit, Man by another Man and Man being irrationally exploitative and destructive towards Mother Nature).

    These are the crucial questions we have to answer in a constructive manner and PRONTO!!! In so doing we have to change our present "Human nature". We have done it before, we can do it again! Dialectics of an open kind, with openness and constant becoming as principles! All else is a recipe for disaster, based in metaphysics!
     
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  2. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

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    @gorski Be realistic, the only way humans change is when they are faced with imminent destruction. Then it's fight or flight response. Self preservation makes them forget their default state of being just plain horrible and brings out the deep seated selfish nature of the human race. There is an entire system built around feeding this selfish nature, which usually all leads to the so called "spiritualism" or enlightenment. There isn't anything enlightening about it at all. It's just the same selfish tendencies being disguised. It's sad, but the day it's announced that there is a planet destroying asteroid pointed straight at Earth with total destruction imminent, then we will see how enlightened humans are really! I wouldn't expect much, humans are just a more evolved monkey with a god complex!
     
  3. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    #2203 gorski, Apr 7, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2020
    I am "realistic", you are defetist-ic, R2D2...:p EEEEKKK!!! :D:p:D

    Sadly, it is worse than just being defeatist. I have no idea if you know it or not, since otherwise you are not giving me this impression of yourself, so I will speak my mind on this and hope you will understand my motivation is pure... Here goes, hold on to your socks and wits, please... I mean you no harm, I swear!!! :D

    Compared to all the others I know of, including many a great Philosopher, you are utterly conservative in your outlook, in your understanding of Human Nature. Needless to say but here it is anyway: you have learnt it! It is not "written in your genes"!!! We differ in terms of our abilities, interests, schools of thought we belong to, books we have read, languages we speak, experiences we have had etc. In other words, we need to de-mystify all this!

    So, let's start somewhere...

    Our "default" state is unknown to us, as it is always formed and co-shaped by our environment, both physical and societal... Nature v. nurture is the oldest of debates and it was never settled, nor will it be, at least for a very long time, I think...

    What is happening with your and many a similar world-view (ideology etc.) is that you guys are reading ONLY the nasty previous epoch episodes into EVERYTHING and this is DANGEROUS and DISINGENUOUS!!!

    At least from Machiavelli and Hobbes (since the outset of Modernity) onward we have this "nasty" presumption and the nastier our alleged nature is painted, the darker the "remedy" in terms of strong and all powerful State and incredible force needed to "counter-act" it. Think about it... Power-driven to the core! See "Leviathan", for instance...

    Thank fook, not all Humans are nasty, even a single - generally speaking - "bad" person is not nasty all the time and when they are - they are usually acting on the premise which is faulty!!! They allege that they can't trust "the other" (as in ANY person, EVER, if they are really f#@&ed up, regardless of the fact they do not know "the other" in a God-like manner, i.e. they do not have THE absolute knowledge necessary for such claims, ergo those are nothing but presumptions and very faulty ones, at that!!!), so what they actually do at that point is they project their worst s**t into others to justify their actions IN ADVANCE, well before anything bad has actually happened to them. Fear is the mother of violence for sure - but in this case it is worse! It's these guys who are CAUSING this sh&t while blaming "the other" for their actions, PRESUMING their "understanding" of them is INFALLIBLE and ABSOLUTE. Arrogant to the bone! To return to your monkey with God complex: please, lay down your accusations where they belong - at the doorsteps of any and every Conservative Club around the world!!!

    True Conservatives are like the worst kind of Pope-sh&te imaginable... "I have spoken!" And we're all supposed to cow-tow... FFS!!!

    FWIW, I think better of you!!! HONESTLY!!!

    So, if you want to inform yourself properly on the issues, if you are ready, I can help with literature and pointing to the real issues, such as above... No pretence, no BS, speaking honestly, openly and from the heart as well!

    Good luck!

    P.S. In a more civilised society (see Scandiland countries) people do trust each other much more than not! See surveys done around the globe. In nasty places, such as the USofA or Brazil, it is the opposite end of the scale for them... If this doesn't make you think carefully as to how your "thinking" on the subject is influenced by your society, present mores, norms, legal and economic environment - nothing will...

    P.P.S. Read Erich Fromm's "The art of loving" and see how even the most Human of experiences are marred by it... We simply can not be overly prescriptive as to what we can keep becoming, as we change our essential circumstances! We have done it before, we can do it again! All else is conservative mythology, dressed in myths, metaphysics and all the rest of "primeval BS"... In short, your position is ahistorical!

    P.P.P.S. Sorry I had to be blunt - you know I like you and the way you behave in terms of one-on-one (you are one of the bright spots on this forum, AFAIAC! :) ) - but you have a lot of studying to do, before you will be able to understand how you are chasing your own tail in this sorry saga... Worry not, all the great thinkers are in exactly the same position, all the time... :p
     
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  4. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

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    #2204 R29k, Apr 7, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2020
    @gorski I don't see anything wrong with what you said, why apologize?
    I usually take the perspective of not being human, who knows I might be a chat bot in someone's server room!

    As you rightly pointed out, human nature is moulded by the environment, but also by numerous mental issues. There really is no normal behavior., But there are default or base desires that exist!
    You may have societies that may appear to be more "civilized" but that's just wishful thinking. The base desires are there which is dictated by self preservation at any cost. Mind you these traits are found in other animals. The problem is that humans are fully equipped to take their insecurities and complexes to the next level and truly be destructive. I'm quite sure you don't have to worry about being nuked by angry chickens.! But chickens have a lot to be angry about, ever wondered why they don't do anything about it?
     
  5. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    #2205 gorski, Apr 7, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2020
    I know why. No brains to think with. Just basic reflexes etc.

    And therefore your starting point is all wrong, m8. Yes, we can be and we sometimes are destructive etc. Even self-destructive.

    However, that does not preclude us from also being able to reflect, communicate, improve, be creative, imaginative, co-operative and so on. How on Earth would you even know something is good, creative, constructive - if you also didn't know/experience the opposite? And that is a part of our "nature", sure... So, why go into overdrive over it and jump to only negative conclusions with 7 mile boots?!?

    We can also envisage consequences of our actions. Animals can't do that further than minimal immediate consequences for them and their family. Sometimes not even that. So, spatial v. temporal intelligence.

    Now, where's the problem for you? You want this to be "pure", as in "angelic", just that and nothing else - or we're "doomed"... But you have the wrong species, m8. We are indeed corporeal and we also have needs, wants, reflexes, basic desire for self-preservation (not presentation - typo?). But to jump from there to our evil nature and the long reaching conclusion that "if we have wants and needs we must be the vermin and only destroy everything" is really... I mean... I didn't see you bemoan a lion for doing what they are programmed to do, so why go nuts over something that we MIGHT but we DON'T HAVE TO DO...??? If anything, we should CELEBRATE that possibility!!!

    So, again, going back to the Ancient Greeks, in all things Human (ta antropina) there is no such thing as absolute certainty.

    But that is nothing to be bewildered by. Unless you are a programmer, I guess... :D :p :D
     
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  6. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

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    @gorski You're getting mixed up. I never said there isn't good in humans! The issue is when push comes to shove the base desires take over and you will end up with the same messed up situation everytime. World War 2 was the worst war in human history. If reflection and improvement was of any use to the human race, don't you think that there would be no possibility of a war after that one? I don't see improvement gorski! AlI I see is cyclic behavior brought on by self serving goals.
     
  7. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    Because you don't want to! Because it is easier like that - black/white! Because people want simplicity - no need to think too deeply, investigate seriously, in an unbiased manner. Because where you grew up - they prepared you for it. Adversarial paradigm is the only thing you see. Bio-genetics, Social Darwinism of various kinds and disguises have seriously messed up your thinking.

    In Darwin there are 2 principles at work, the other being co-operation, equally important as competition but in neo-Liberal paradigm this is an anathema, hence it is squeezed out and no one really investigates that... (That is why you NEVER mention the other, the good, creative, imaginative (look at your own signature!)...)

    Well, except the US military... and every Left leaning semi-decent organisation/society/co-operative/etc. Something to think about?
     
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  8. MS_User

    MS_User MDL Guru

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  9. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    I believe you. :p

    "Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard, solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
     
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  10. RyanCarr

    RyanCarr MDL Novice

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    #2210 RyanCarr, May 17, 2020
    Last edited: May 25, 2020
    Very good words!

    Religion divides us... Spirituality unites us

    I also believe that worldview as well as spirituality can unite us.
    The worldview is very different for many people, this is how we see the world and perceive it. It can also be described as the main motivation in the thoughts, words, and actions of a person. This is a very interesting topic for me and I can study it forever studydriver.com/biblical-worldview-essay/ On this resource I found interesting work on this topic. Usually, I'm very inspired to read such literature, it gives me new thoughts and a lot of insights.
     
  11. case-sensitive

    case-sensitive MDL Senior Member

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    #2211 case-sensitive, Jun 1, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2020
    Hmmmmmm ....... What is spirituality ? .......What does it cost ? ....... Where can i buy some please ?

    You say ' religeon ' divides us ....... talk about ' spirituality ' and then point us at ' religeous ' propoganda ...... semitic indoctrination ! ? !

    That means youve missed ...... or conveniantly ignore the last several thousand years of world history wich has been dominated by crimes against humanity by the three main semitic branches = christianity , islam and judaism fighting against each other trying to prove wich of those semitic sects are the ' legitimate ' semits .

    Are those three semitic sects realy religeon ? Is semitism a religeon ? Or is it politics ? = God gave me your land / oil / gas and told me if you dont do what I ....... Ooops ! sorry What god says ...... your a terrorist !!!! Antisemitic !!!! ...... and i can kill you !!!

    Strange ...... all three sects are bound by what we call the ten commandments ....... but all of them have a history of murder , war crimes and crimes against humanity ....... commited in gods name .
     
  12. case-sensitive

    case-sensitive MDL Senior Member

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    >The issue is when push comes to shove the base desires take over and you will end up with the same messed up situation everytime.

    Did things ....... ' the situation ' change over history ? Did things get better ? Or worse ?

    Did you notice with corona how many people just stood up and volunteered to help ? Did you look at little britain where thousands of unemployed people work for firms for free ......... just to have something to do ? To help . A friend of mine does it . He works in a samaritan shop and also for a local market gardener .

    >World War 2 was the worst war in human history.

    Nope . Each war is worse than the one before because its repeated killing ........ each repitition is worse ....... because the people commiting the murders have heard about / witnessed other wars and then do the same .

    Was / is the war against islam AKA the war against terror better than the ' 2nd world war ' ? The ' 2nd world war ' was people fighting people . The war against islam is indiscriminate technology steared by people thousands of miles away in an office bombing whole villages with drohnes . Murdering them with phosphor bombs , land mines ...... and all they have to ' defend ' themselves are catapults ? Bomb belts ? Self sacrifice ? Is that better ?

    Are the weapons now used ' better ' than the weapons in the ' WW2 ' ........ more humane ? ...... More civilised ?



    >If reflection and improvement was of any use to the human race, don't you think that there would be no possibility of a war after that one?

    Who wants war ? Who declares war ? Who fights wars ? Who dies in wars ? Who profits from wars ? The rich ....... minority ? ...... Or ......The poor ...... majority ?

    >AlI I see is cyclic behavior brought on by self serving goals.

    WHOS self serving goals ? ...... How does poverty serve the poor ? Do they choose it ? What you see is the effects of illegitimate control = Capitalism and rule by the rich ....... for the rich . Not for the people by the people .

    Rule by the rich ? Is politics in our interest ? Or does it serve the rich and powerfull ? AGAIN ....... IF human behaviour was ' brought on ' by self serving goals ........ why are the poor poor ? The homless homeless ? The hungry hungry ? The unemployed unemployed ? ....... are they masochists ? .......

    Human behaviour is controlled and steared by the rich ....... in the interest of the rich .
     
  13. kaljukass

    kaljukass MDL Guru

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    If God existed, I would not believe that He would only like to develop nonsense and stupidity grow up on Earth.
     
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  14. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

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    Oh sorry I didn't see this based on how you quoted, there was no notification.

    I'm going to say this, why separate the rich from the poor as if it's two separate entities.?Yes people like to blame government and the rich for everything. But who put them in there? If you're going to claim a democratic society then the power has always been with the voters! You chose morons like Trump et al so why complain? It seems very obvious to me, it needs enough stupid voters to elect a stupid man!
     
  15. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    You are talking of only one side of the problem. Free society, free election, free vote - yes.

    However, fair elections - no. Fair chance to make up one's mind - no, due to unequal chances in life, from bad education onward...
     
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  16. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

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    That still has the same answer, who holds the power in society, don't tell me corporations or politicians that's not the answer. In sport there is a general consensus, the opposition is only as good as they are allowed to be!
     
  17. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    Don't tell me what (not) to tell - only very few corporations/billionaires hold 90% of USofA media and you think they will give their opponents a fair chance? Where do we begin: Mierdoch? C'mon, man...
     
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  18. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

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    Well then just skip the elections and appoint Bezos as vKing of the world !
     
  19. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    They are not stupid!
     
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  20. case-sensitive

    case-sensitive MDL Senior Member

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    >I'm going to say this, why separate the rich from the poor as if it's two separate entities.?

    Let them eat cake !?!? Theres no difference between the rich and the poor ? You dont see differences ? You mean like in amiland where the american DREAM says that all men are equal and everyone has the chance to be rich if they work hard . A sick statement and belief proven to be wrong by the statistics ? How many amis are there ? How many are rich ? How long have the rich familys been rich and how long ........ how many generations have the poor been poor ........ and in exactly the same situation . Why is that ?

    You mean all the poor people didnt work hard enough ? Are they lazy ? Do they want to be poor ? Did they vote for it ?

    Did you notice ...... the two classes ? = The rich and the people that make decisions are basicly the same ? That the decisions that polytrickers make are in the interests of capital and not in the interests of the people ?

    Did anyone vote for the climate catastrophy ? = An avoidable situation caused by polytrickers in the interests of capitalists .

    IF we live in democracy why cant i vote for who i want to REPRESENT me / US ? Not as is now THEY allow us to vote for them ...... and then they RULE us !?! Free people dont have rulers . Free people take part in decision making ........in the system we have now we are allowed to vote for the people that take our rights and freedom away from us and make decisions in our names on our backs ...... that WE have to take the responsibility for . I dont need a person to make decisions for me ...... i'm not a slave or a moron .

    >If you're going to claim a democratic society then the power has always been with the voters!

    Who said we live in a democracy ? We dont . Our political system is called PARTY POLITICAL DEMOCRACY . Wich is the exact oposite of democracy . In a democracy WE decide . In party political ' democracy ' people decide for us . ( For a german speaker the difference between freedom and bevormundung )

    IF power is with the voters explain war ? Poverty ? Why are they poor ? Because they cant be bothered to vote against it ?

    >You chose morons like Trump et al so why complain? It seems very obvious to me, it needs enough stupid voters to elect a stupid man!


    First you say they're free and then that they're morons ? One of the consequences of the system as it is now and always was is that the poor / working classes have been bread thick :) ........ by a two class education system ........ real education for the rich and training to be a happy slave and allow ourselves to be exploited for the poor .

    See little britain . A population that lives in poverty with massive unemployment , homlessness , drug adiction allthough little britain is the second richest country in yurp ...... at least on paper . That wealth was made on their backs . They were sent around the world to murder and steal wealth ....... wich landed in the hands of the rich . The working class people have now been so indoctrinated that the believe that they are free ....... and lead the world !!! ..........and boast about little britain being a democracy , about the national death system ......... about ' winning WW2 !!! ......... ând the world cup in mexico !!!

    And then they sing ' Rule britania ' and ' God save the parasite ' ......... hero worshiping the people that have and are living off their backs . Stockholm syndrom ? ........ indoctrination ? ....... Democracy ?

    >Well then just skip the elections and appoint Bezos as vKing of the world !

    Thank you . Do you see the confusion there ? :) ........ We can vote and ....... He already is .

    One minute your talking about democracy and the next your telling us that the working classes are thick !!! ......... WHY ARE THEY THICK ? ........ Through choice ? Or because of a two class system that only caters for the rich .