If God is Omniscient then Human is not free.

@Sid .. My experience .. When I let go of/surrender the ego based definition/perception of who I am and correct perception/true nature is revealed then being Self is possible .. Then I hear "Honey we have to go to town .. Did you forget ?" .. My free will is being infringed upon .. Oh well .. Such is my life

 

@redroad: I've heard that refered to as "Honeydew".

Honeydew this and Honeydew that.

But, every Man must remember this addage:

"A happy Wife is a happy life"

:Miki

 

Turning hardened postures into points of laughter requires surrender .. Our union has always flourished in that environment .. Consistently providing an environment for our true natures to reemerge and where gratitude for what we share is our bedrock .. 3 grandchildren later, we still thrive in that environment of choices/free will ..

 

@sid: you had some interesting points in that post. However, I think what is pivotal to the whole issue of omniscience (which seems to be thought of synonymous to "fate" or "predetermination", which I don't think would necessarily have to be true) and such matters is the understanding of the role of Time. You say "man can only change the future". In fact, that is not exactly true. If man was to 'change' the future, the future would have already had to exist, in order for it to be changed. So often we (as humans) think in the past-present-future frame where, in reality, only the now-instance exists. I've heard it referred to as the 'now-wave' somewhere, which I thought was an interesting description. 'Now-wave' because the instance, due to relativity (space/distance/time, etc.) the now of a different location is also the now of a different time (for anywhere but that location). Further, since there is no static 'here' -- even this very location (anywhere you are) refreshes/changes every millisecond, both atomically and in space/time (orbits) -- the 'past' is referring to a now-wave that doesn't actually exist. It only exists in your memory and consciousness. Rational mind can say 'well, this built up to this and that' and it would be 'true', but still the fact remains that the now-wave of that instance is not the now-wave anything actually exists in. I know it's hard to put into language because it tends to stretch language itself

So in that sense you could say that man can only change the past, just as well as you could say man can only change the future. Because those concepts of past and future only exist in an awareness that keeps track of sequential now-moments, and intuits and/or calculates an expected trajectory it calls 'future'. But in reality it is only the now-moment.

What a star looks like to us, when see its light in the sky, is the now-wave of that star reaching us in the form of light. That light represents a moment or now-moment when that light left that star (more or less, due to relativity's action). From relativity we know that that now-wave that reaches us is the now-wave of that star as relative to us. The now-wave of the star itself is occurring at its own location; the light it emits as it does that will reach us perhaps thousands of years later, which is when its now-wave reaches us. So that's another way of saying we are always looking at a 'dated' universe (which is also why we can now so much about it -- which in itself is saying relativity teaches us much about... well, relativity ).

So omniscience would really have to exist in a timeless state for it to be possible. I read someone commented about nothing can be faster than the speed of light (in reply to a post of Yen's). Quantum mechanics has strongly indicated the reality of instantaneous reaction. In fact, it's debatable if 'reaction' is therefore even a proper term. A particle can have a companion particle many, many thousands and millions of miles away. You influence one particle, and the other manifests a 'reaction' faster than the speed of light. Actually, it looks instantaneous. This indicates a reality beyond or behind space-time. If physical science is already indicating this, then the leap to omniscience is not as huge or as 'imbued with faith' as it seems.

 

@parapher well put .. Great post .. Thanks !!

 

@parapher: Your post was great.

IMHO, because of free will, you can change the future. Every step that we take in this world involves a choice.
Do You stop to pick up the neighbor's newspaper from the sidewalk and put it in his mailbox? Let's just say that you decide not to, and the 9 year old boy from down the street hits the rolled up newspaper with his bike, falls off and breaks his arm. I'm not saying that you are responsible for the boys' accident (Some might argue that fact) but, because you made a choice, you influenced, and therefore changed the future.

This can only take place if you have free will, i.e. the free will to choose to change the future.

You are both truly blessed to have each other, because what you have is true love.

Kahlil Gibran best summed up love in this parable from the Prophet.
I hope you all enjoy reading it as much as I did.

Peace and Joy

 

Probably one of the best posts in this thread so far...

It will give the atheist/partial science something to chew on as well as perhaps lead to what science lacks the foundation of observation to prove?

Instantaneous is correct word to use! It implies that that, from the linear state of mind (which is no mind at all), there is no "lag time" in things existing!? So for an physical object such as a person to determine if something is still existing, such as a star that is no longer there, he would have to be able to sync with it when it was there, which to science is impossible! It also debunks that one can view anything/all things through the theory of relativity since the theory of relativity doesn't include cosmic time, but rather an time that is not time or present-ness at all but a measurement of space called "duration"

True time or eternity is not "duration" and ultimately how things are truly manifested can't be measured with relative duration concepts or theories! So it's funny that the real frequencies of time kept conscious by the Maya are the factors left out in an comprehensive whole system analysis of the universe

So one, we eliminate linear false time from any equations or theories! Then how will those theories and equations work? They won't work cause the whole common denominator in science it to include duration as variable to gain data but indeed that data is objectified not actually real like eternity is real and yet is unconscious from the "relative" "duration" concepts of time

The Maya we're known for observing hundreds of star systems but did it with no machine or outside apparatus so how did they tune in to observe what most Humans cannot. They are in sync with they wish to perceive is how! So are there underlying aspects to reality that science can't tune into? Yep and their called the frequencies of time and their found in their calendars which weren't meant to measure time as duration but we're actually set's of frequencies use to tune into what is wished to be known. They can do this cause these frequencies are actually the foundational building blocks of reality and when trying to perceive with false concepts of time being linear, all is missed and passed by for lack of better word.

These frequencies actually must be tuned into with our minds and spirit and because the root of reality is actually cosmic time or eternity, then it is quite possible to view a star system that is dead or gone and/or actually seeing through the lens of natural time. All time is now!

Yes but remember for this perspective to go further you must know that time as science describes it is not real time but a measure of space called duration, so what is really said from that statement is "a reality beyond space-space" not space time

These laws of time actually include and are greater than the laws of space like gravity, electromagnetic properties and what makes this new discussion so difficult is that the universe is sacred or alive and has spirit all throughout it. This is where the Shaman has precedence in observation because he uses these hidden frequencies of time not just to view what science can't but to realign with the actual cosmos, not just what science can view which is not instantaneous observation but partial perceptions based on partial theories and incomplete data to use the term correctly

But now the God thread has turned into an cosmic science thread or omniscience as you put it so we're in for more trouble than we've previously experienced ...lol

And ultimately when we are able to be in sync with what creates all life then one can see what is supposedly dead or what is to come like with prophecy and if when Humans are ready, one can actually via these frequencies of time re-enginner memories which will restore our minds, bodies and world in sync with the galactic whole and it's origins Eternity!

But again this is all dependent on us or our science being as sacred as the reality we wish to investigate

The subjective observer and the object observed are one through the lens or frequencies of now centered time *timelessness*

The velocity of real time is instantaneously infinite

This is describing an completely different cosmology than is currently available for all true science is applied cosmology

With the parts in Bold you are actually getting closer to what your describing and that is reality is based on memory and conciousness

Mind over matter

Thought precedes reality

Keep going, your onto something that no one here can touch on with their currently limited information scope

parapher

 

For this conversation to evolve, one must STOP leaving God out of Humans! God is in all things!

And if one want's to have omni-perspective as Human, one must include God as Human, not God as "separate" from Human

This will empower Human to know and see like God and ultimately do anything as God can and does anything comprehensively!

God foreseeing an "event" is not separate from God creating that same event. They are two in the same...

Think bigger!!

 

So if we persist with this idiotic path of reasoning then we have many problems:
1) If there is a Devil then God is the Devil essentially
2) Every bad thing that has happened has been the will of God
3) God is essentially a psychopath
The concept of God is idiotic. We are better off with an infinite Universe.

 

A question: in those ideas about one's "self", where do spiritualists see people who are clinically shizophrenic? They don't have "a" self.

What do you think about them and their condition? These people can't even know what their other self in the same body is doing - even when it's committing crimes which would deeply disturb their "real self". This is even rooted in our laws that these people are not guilty and need to be helped.

If they wished to go on a spiritual journey but really can't, do you say "tough luck, spirituality is for the privilged"? Is it their "fault"?

----

Totally unrelated story:

A theory I heard: Humans and their genetic ancestors, in their need to survive, developed through natural selection the preference to see patterns (movement, enemies) where there are none, instead of seeing no pattern where there are. In the first case, if they are in error, nothing bad happens. In the latter case, if they fail to see the pattern, they become prey. Based upon that it was argued that this is where spirituality comes from. Opinion?

So they did a test with a pigeon. It was put in a cage with a hole where food could be given to the pigeon. First, they gave food only when the pigeon bounced a bell or a button in order to train it. In the course of the experiment, they changed the food administration from deterministic to completely random. This lead to the coincidence where the pigeon would look over its shoulder by accident and just in that moment food was randomly given to it.

The end effect was that the pigeon kept repeating this pattern of looking over its shoulder and became convinced it had found a new way to get food, even when this pattern failed to actually give it food. It just kept repeating more often than before.

To me, in an evolutionary sense, it's a perfectly reasonable explanation why beliefs can persevere in the face of contradicting evidence.

Edit: the funny part was where the so-called "psychics" were trying to make contact with the afterlife in front of an audience. They were randomly throwing names, events (car crash, bowel movement) into the room until someone felt the need to speak up because they identified with these random bits of information. Of course, when challenged to give a detail about one specific person, they were wrong every time.

Same with horoscopes. They gave a single identical horoscope to 12 random people, where 11 were not "born under the star sign" of said horoscope. Half of them said it applied to them, half of them (including the person with the matching star-sign!) said it was nonsense for them in that given week.

 

The Devil punishes bad people. Isn't that actually a good thing? There's your "proof" that God is the Devil. Pseudo-science is fun

 

So God punishes you, using an alter ego, for doing what it made you do ?

 

He can allegedly even absolve from murder. So it's all beyond reason anyway. Religion keeps humanity separated and in constant conflict.

I don't really want to pseudo-debate all the contradictions over and over again. You're preaching to the choir[1].


[1] cue the troll: "He said preaching!"

 

"There is no devil, only god when He's drunk."

 

What path of reasoning are you speaking of specifically ? How did the devil enter into the debate ?

@TCM if you want a response to something, at least from me, throwing out a bunch of stuff in order to bolster some generalized opinion you have of a group of people or population and there beliefs/views won't get anything in the way of response unless you address a specific individual about a specific point if that is your intention .. example : post #474

 

I thought that birds evolved from dinosaurs, and Humans did not. Sounds like hoaky science to me.

In biblical teachings, it is said that divination is an abomination to GOD. Now you know why.


Or should I say Q.E.D.

 

Ok you have problems, that makes sense since you can't direct your questions to individuals cause that's a reflection of intimacy ...lol

God and infinite universe are same thing ...lol

Transmediumship or the ability to embody other entities is quite common. Homeless experience profound experience and are deemed shizophrenic but it is really through their compassion they are victimized and not listen to cause again any information that isn't of status que is considered demonic or crazy

God is both bad and good so good might in an historical cycle good not want bad sh@t to happen to good people?

Finally you are feeling deeply, yea God is both sides of the force which upon the individuals life they have the choice to not tolerate the dark side of the force. All this is regarding forgiveness that God wears black and white t-shirts

Religion in sanskrit means to re-unite (insinuating with god to re-unite) hence many things are misinterpreted and acted upon as self-evident

False prophesy, which is not reading into the probable future, but projection of what is wanted by selfish individual to happen confuses the average intuitive recall of the future from what could happen to what is on average estimated to happen. Bad example just saying

OMG my last post brought the God thread to top of the hot threads ...lol



Enjoy it while it lasts, just like partial science or analyzing to know the cosmos ...lol