If God is Omniscient then Human is not free.

Discussion in 'Serious Discussion' started by sid_16, Apr 9, 2013.

?

Free will doesn't exist If God is omniscient.

  1. If yes, why?

    37 vote(s)
    45.1%
  2. If no, then how?

    45 vote(s)
    54.9%
  1. Joe C

    Joe C MDL Guru

    Jan 12, 2012
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    Is that the best you can do gorski?
     
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  2. ThomasMann

    ThomasMann MDL Expert

    Dec 31, 2015
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    #1662 ThomasMann, Feb 28, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2016

    In case there is an emergency:
    I am connected to quite a lot of good therapists, if you let us know where you live maybe one of them can help you?

    Lets look at your case... So, you were actually there in paradise when the snake spoke? Oh? No? You only read that it was so? Ah, well that is fine the, if you have heard it, the it must be true.

    "Thus far this "intelligence" has given us the ability to create ways of killing each other and the planet we share. "

    Week in the world that you inhabit, that may be true, in my world we also have Art, we have love, we have laughter and music and dance and a few other things... far be it from me, that I would suggest you might look at better surroundings. But them you like the world that you exist in, hypocrites like you love sitting in judgement about others. We understand, what to do, when one has nothing else to like onesself???

    >The bible is book written by people who lived 300 years after Jesus, so his story was passed on through 10 generations, I am sure, that implies that only truth is written in your bible. And then Konstantine at the Council deleted everything from the bible he disliked and added a few of his own fantasies, as did several popes after him. So all in all, other than for people like you, the bible is a nice story book, but not really a guide.

    Next time you out your mind to rinse it clean, try to not put it back or see if you can change with someone else...

    You see: "Thankfully I'm not alone. God is there every step of the way to help and guide me towards choosing good instead of evil", that is not true. I have never been near you!


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  3. ThomasMann

    ThomasMann MDL Expert

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    Only then, can you be a good person. If like a slave or a sheep you follow someone else's rules, in this case because are afraid of hell, and/or at the same time greedy for eternal life in paradise... what does that make you?
     
  4. SOCRATE_MMXII

    SOCRATE_MMXII MDL Expert

    Jan 25, 2012
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    It's so funny to see the black sheep argue with the white sheep argue over the value of "baaaaaah".
     
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  5. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
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    Joe, sooooo unintelligently "funny"... :D
     
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  6. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
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    Maybe if one studies philosophy and starts understanding the dialectical relationship between freedom and necessity (Hegel, for instance), one might be closer to understanding "free will"... ;)

    Otherwise, there is a lot of nonsense written for no reason whatsoever...
     
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  7. JFKI

    JFKI MDL Expert

    Oct 25, 2015
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    Actually there are two valid reasons.
    1. Teaching moral values to the ignorant. ( hint hint )
    2. From King James forward, control of the masses.
     
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    You live in a very old black hole and are with several billion kilometers per hour on the milky Way road.
    Good journey, my friend.
    [​IMG]
    You live mentally in the Stone Age if you 'believe in god'.

    But thanks to the free will you can believe what you want!
     
  9. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
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    (..what the Hell...??? :confused::confused::g::g: )
     
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  10. SOCRATE_MMXII

    SOCRATE_MMXII MDL Expert

    Jan 25, 2012
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    :laie:

    Dear gorski,
    ...

    Before making such affirmation, please look in the mirror...you'll see the sheep. ;)
     
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  11. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    What, so your personal example does necessarily mean that all cases are like yours...??? :D :D :D
     
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  12. SOCRATE_MMXII

    SOCRATE_MMXII MDL Expert

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    #1673 SOCRATE_MMXII, Mar 2, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2016
    Oh, what a pity...the poor philosopher is just a broken record. :empathy3:

    P.S. What is "an example"?
     
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  13. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
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    Look who's talking!!! :D :D :D

    P.S. Stop it! :D You'll hurt your head-void, so just relax... :D Donald Duck Trump will tell you exactly what to think, say and do... :D :D
     
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  14. Tarwin

    Tarwin MDL Novice

    Oct 19, 2014
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    Omniscience has nothing to do with free will. Let's assume that some god is watching you, unless they for some reason they decide to interfere, you are still free to do as you wish. Think of it like when they implant gps chips in wild animals for studies. The animal can do as they wish, the scientist just observes.
     
  15. sid_16

    sid_16 MDL Giveaway Organiser

    Oct 15, 2011
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    OMNISCIENCE or "perfect foreknowledge". Omniscience precludes free will because it states unequivocally that the individual in question WILL do certain things at certain times, and nothing can change that. You completely misunderstood what an 'Omniscience' is? Your example is inapplicable 'cos the scientist can track the animals where about but can't determine its action.
     
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  16. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
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    And if we actually talk "reality" :D - we must mention the "real" aspect of freedom/creativity/imagination, that is to say the essentially Human characteristic, which enables us not only to choose from the given options (which is frequently considered "freedom" in strictly bourgeois world, conservatively setup and run :D ), already existing around us - but also to create new options, out of thin air, as it were... :D
     
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  17. SOCRATE_MMXII

    SOCRATE_MMXII MDL Expert

    Jan 25, 2012
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    What certain things and what certain times?

    God is inside and outside of time and space right NOW.
    God has no past, no future, just PRESENT. "Time" is a human concept. Humans need time because of their "need" to relate to something. "Time" is a concept resulted from human attachment to things, events, other humans. Without attachment, there's no time.
    God is Omniscient and only because IT is Omniscient, humans have free will.
    Without an Omniscient God, free will would not exist, because that god would try to enforce his/her will to his/hers subjects.

    P.S. If you want Time, buy the magazine. :D
     
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  18. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
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    Now, that's what I call omniscience, dear colleagues!

    Soccy for President of Universe! :D

    Ooorrrr.... in his own signature... :D

    "Cherish those who seek the truth, but beware of those who have found it."

    Well, since he obviously found it and has nothing new to hear on the subject - RUN LIKE HELL!!!! :D :D :D
     
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  19. sid_16

    sid_16 MDL Giveaway Organiser

    Oct 15, 2011
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    Socrate of 2012 just allow me to go off on a brief tangent for a moment to re post the post posted by me years back:D .
    A Supernatural Universe vs a Natural Universe.;)
    A supernatural universe is the concept of a universe which doesn't actually exist. In this imaginary universe, the laws of Nature are replaced with the fickle whims of Magic. Where as a natural universe is the concept of the real universe. There are laws of Nature which never change. There is no intelligence pulling any magic switches in the natural universe. There are forces of Nature which naturally obey the laws of Nature.

    Omniscience vs Knowledge through Learning
    Omniscience is the concept of supernatural "automatic" knowledge achieved by a supernatural being. Because nothing supernatural exists in the Natural universe, therefore, omniscience doesn't exist. There is only one way to gain knowledge. Through learning. No knowledge is gained "automatically" in the Natural universe.

    Magical Time vs Real Time:cool:
    Magical Time is a concept in which a being can exist, move about and have a non-sequential relationship with real time. It is how supernatural beings are able to exist "outside of time". It defies the laws of nature and, therefore, doesn't exist.:tasty:
    Real time is the natural order of time. It exists in the sequential order of past to present to future. It is so incorporated into the Natural universe that we cannot even make a statement without some reference to time. For instance, the simple statement "I am" has a reference to the present time.:biggrin:
     
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