@Chef: If it brings you joy, then do it. A spiritual belief system is a personal thing, and should be treated as such. We're all different, and we all choose to believe in or not to believe in whatever we want. Nobody has the right to tell us that we're wrong for our beliefs, unless of course, our beliefs involve hurting others for whatever reasons. @Yen: You're right when you say that it's our own egos that cause these kinds of arguments. Sometimes, we take the opinions of others as a personal affront to our own beliefs. The question is: How strong are your own beliefs that you would allow a counter point to shake them to the point of an emotional response? And how much stock do you place in the viewpoints and opinions of others that you would allow this to happen? As intelligent creatures, we must acknowledge that there are things that can never be proven, simply because we do not have all of the facts. And there are things that we will never fully understand. My heart tells me to try to find a place of mutual respect based on compassion and understanding. If I judge you harshly or try to force my beliefs or opinions on you, then what kind of person does that make me? Just because we disagree on a subject doesn't mean that we can't be friends. It simply means that we disagree. If we can get past our differences, then we can be friends. And that's where compassion and understanding comes in. FWIW.
Man has the right, which is not god-given, to choose good way or evil way. I think that is the essence of freedom. The opportunity of evil-doing must be always there to be or not to be chosen. We are free to choose. God is there to judge us, or our conscience if you will. Without evil, there is no choice. If no choice, no freedom. I think we need to prove our humanity all the time by choosing good again and again.
That is true, but the context is better there... Also, it is not the only idiotic idea in Miltons book.
Excuse me, but there is no way to not consider this extrenely stupid.... "I find it interesting that those that do not belief..." There is nothing partricularly interesting there, other than the fact the purpose of a religion in the stone age was to help people to come to grips with a for them magical reality. Basically after the renaissance and then the age of enlightenment, religion only served one purpose: To keep people stupid and afraid. I know this will never occur to you, but some people actually enjoy thinking, whixh even in evolution means further developed than believing. That is why some of us do it and usually it is very amusing to look at what believers of all kinds consider to be thinking. "Do you have a reason for this behavior?..." References to old testament, koran or a rabbinical law are used to show how obviously stupid these sources are, when it comes to their respective gods. There is quite a lot of very sensible advice in those books, but just like the nonsense, all of it is anthropomorphic. There is no need for believe in a god to read books full of fairy tales.... "Do you feel this way about Buddhists gods?" As I said at the beginning "extremely stupid". There are no gods in Buddhism, that is why it is the most intelligent one of all religions, Zen is even better. Both are several categories above the most retarded ones: those three monotheistic ones. Allah is no different from the jewish or the christian god. As even a german chancellor Schmidt once put is, if you have a vision, you need to consult a doctor. And yes, I consider Islam by far the most stupid. Freedom of religion means that everybody may believe whatever he chooses, but it also implies the right to actual freedom FROM religion. As long as the garbage in your head does not attempot to interfere in MY LIFE, then you may, as any good christian is, remain afraid of hell and greedy for paradise, if you cannot find a more sensible way of living. My condolences to all of you.
"To recognize a 'believer' you must have an own idea of god." You may have had one before you started stopped believing and thinking about it. But if you think there is no other result you ca arrive that the simple understanding that we cannot know oné way or the other. Once you are there, you see, that if any God wants us to do anything because of his existence, he certainly could give us a sign. "Ego defends individual idea of god". Most certainly true, still, there comes a point where there are no "emotions/rants "any longer about it. The emotions are not the result of the subject, they are not even about stupidity. They are about all the incredible suffering and misery the violence of ALL religions has brought upon mankind.... I tried to watch Scorseses new movie "Silence" and I did get angry and stopped it. All the suffering in the movie was caused by those missionaries whose ego made them bring the "one true religion" to the heathens, but then brought them instead torture and unbelievable suffering. That is the idiotic way it has been for millenia and it still goes on... yes, these idiotic monotheistic religions do make me angry, Zen or no Zen!
That may be so, but look at their quality of life.... (I have lived a few years in south east asia!) If it is so truly buddhist, why do they all use their mobile phones and count their likes? Why do they all run to the priests? Christians are afraid of hell, these Buddhists are afraid of a bad reincarnation. Believers whereever you look... Their religion gives them a mor pleasant personality, that is true... I have yet to see one buddhist country, where Buddhism is not a business.
it is not unlike the mods here at mdl, little green men decide to do something because of their existence, don`t you think, Tommy? And there is nothing we can do about it if they decide to close our threads, or delete our posts, or, even worse, decide to move it to serious discussion, to maintain the peace..
Not my saying, but I thought it was a suitable place to quote it: If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to, then He is not omnipotent. If He is able, but not willing, then He is malevolent. If He is both able and willing, then whence cometh evil? If He is neither able nor willing, then why call Him God? (Epicurus)
You pretty much ran all that together. I had to untangle it to respond. In alternate order No. Not strange. The Old and New Testaments are intended to be used together. It's a set, not one or the other. If you're ACTUALLY devout and ACTUALLY following the Religion you are using BOTH of them - So it doesn't matter which of New or Old is referred to or referenced. They are both valid. Bibles are not one-off stand-alone works. They are COLLECTIONS of other older works. The Old Testament Christian and Hebrew Bibles were both collections drawn from the same pool of individual writings written over several centuries mostly by the Israelites. (Most Christians don't know or won't admit it but they are just a branch of Judaism. After all Jesus Christ and Moses and so on were all Jews..). (The "Allah-God" religions are (at the core/base) essentially the same as the "Christ-God" religions. (Same foundation works.) . The Quran is essentially a revision of the Hebrew Bible with some additions by Mohammad, but also note that (true) Islam holds the Christian and Hebrew Bibles as complimentary to the Quran. In other words they consider (and use) all three (plus Gospel) as important parts of their own scripture. As far as core values and foundation scripture there is little difference between Islam, Judaism and Christianity/Catholic. As is commonly said, they have the same God but follow him through different profits. I find few that profess to follow these religions are even aware that their Bible is not their religion's only foundation document. It's just one of a collection of books/documents called a canon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon#Old_Testament - fairy tale A lot of the individual writings that went into the Testaments ARE fairy tales (fables). Sometimes they are based on real events but the final story is just a fable. The intent is not malicious. The intent is to have a reference (a "Standard") document to teach one idea or another from. - I'm totally good with that. What I'm not good with is the idea that some of these fables are unaltered literal factual history. - That's ludicrous. - mean God. (I would use mean and/or cruel, not the other modifiers you chose.) Because (among other things) in the Testaments God repeatedly punishes and/or kills people over next to nothing. He even kills entire populations including men, women, children and 1 day old babies over what OTHER members of that populations did. [I don't feel like writing out examples, so here.] http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Examples_of_God_personally_killing_people Do you think killing 1 day old babies because someone down the street is a prostitute or gay is kind or fair? Is killing babies to teach the gov't in power a lesson kind or fair? This God is CLEARLY mean and cruel. I have no issue with Religious folk that realize/admit this. (They have a right to choose a God like that.) Those that don't accept it are either in denial or they have not studied their own religion. [In my experience few people actually study or follow their own professed religion.] [Reworded] What about other religions? [Answer] I'm an equal opportunity doubter. These kinds of conversations generally happen with Jews/Christians/Catholics (the "Christ-God" religions) so that's where I've done the most prior study. Apparently that's the experience of others as well because it seems to be universally assumed that is what you are referring to when you don't say otherwise. ~~~~~~~ Overall comments. As far as core values there is little difference in ANY of the major Religions. I do not disagree with those core values. I believe in and follow them. I simply don't need a mythical entity surrounded by a political organization to remind me what they are or to justify their use. Some of my purpose in getting into these debates is to try to understand why other people need that. In other words: Why do so many people need someone else to TELL them what is right and how to live by it.
HAHAHAHAHA! I didn't catch the poster before. That is indeed true. So this benevolent ALIEN appears out of the infinite abyss and waves a magic wand creating all matter and planets and fauna and man. It is difficult to believe that anyone that buys that as literal or history is even capable of rational thought. And, that little story is the very root and the foundation of everything in that religion that comes after. Frankly those theories one sees that suggest aliens have come here from other planets and manipulated our DNA are orders of magnitude more rational and (dare I say it) more likely to have actually happened. Next time a pack of "Believers" interrupts your day by showing up at your door to convert you, do this: Look them directly in the eye (stern straight face, maybe lean forward a little) and ask: "You DO know your God is an Alien, right?" Then tell them you don't believe in Aliens. Alien = Extraterrestrial = Not from Earth. If God created Earth then clearly he didn't come from Earth so he is an alien by definition. Thus: Aliens created Man. The Bible says so.
Pretty much common knowledge for the Allah/Jesus Religions. I've known it since grade school. Does not work for Buddhism - No deity. Does not work for Hinduism - Multiple deities.
It is the one thought that guides my treatment of believers, in particular americans, with their re-born garbage. The one true problem that humanity has ever had, and the one that will prevent real improvement of the condition humaine for ever and ever, is the prevalent stupidity. So, basically life offers one big challenge: How do I avoid ending up in a situtaion where the retarded masses have any power in my life? Once you find the trick, life is an unbelievably wonderful present, you get to live on this phantastic beautiful planet, in the one paradise that actually does exist, and the only one you will ever see. So start enjoying it now....
I bet you put on white sheets and cover your heads with pillow cases so you can burn crosses at night too. You are a religious bigot
I agree. And I've been to war to defend people's right to believe what they want. (For me that was an important part of why I went.) Analytical criticism about a belief in a debate is not by default an attempt to tell you you're wrong, it is (or can be) just an attempt to understand how you could believe such a thing. Religious institutions sending out teams of people to convert them IS a deliberate attempt to convince people they are wrong in their beliefs. If these people are not going to leave me be with my beliefs, why should I leave them be? It is confusing when people use the term "argument" when what they mean is "fight". (aka "heated argument".) Properly used the term "argument" (used alone) does not imply "fight", or rather it is not meant to. I don't think ego has anything to do with Religious arguments (debates) eroding into heated arguments (fights). Some (many?) people have simply never learned how to have a rational argument (debate) without letting their emotions get in the way. I see that as immaturity (or lack of skill development) and/or insecurity in their own belief system. ~~ In some professions arguing points is part of the job. If they lose their temper during a debate they will probably lose the argument too. Not loosing your temper in an argument is a learnable skill that many (most?) people have not learned. ~~ Also when it comes to Religious arguments there is the value of the stakes. So to speak. (Along the lines of..) "If I lose the argument - my belief system is bogus - I'll go to Hell." (... kind of thing.) (Yen version) "If I lose the argument - my belief system is bogus - I won't be reincarnated." When they see themselves loosing they panic, become irrational/childish and/or resort to personal insults. [Personal insults are distinctly different from insulting an idea. - And violate MDL rules.]. Yes. However when you invent fantasy-fiction stories to explain away the unknown and then try to pass them off as facts (or actually believe they are facts) rational people will question your intelligence/sanity. A Missionary. Agree. Or would that be agree to disagree?
Review See what I mean. No. I don't own any white sheets. Pillow cases won't keep out the Aliens. (That your Bible says your God is.) One must use a tin-foil hat. Burning trash is against the smog laws in my city. Yes I'm a religious bigot. And? And so are you. By throwing out personal insults you proved it beyond doubt. (If you don't understand then look-up the definition of bigot.) .
@PCBONEZ: I agree with you about organized religion. Personally, I don't subscribe to it. Too many wrongs done in the name of GOD. And You're not the only vet here. Both JFKI and I are veterans. It does, because challenging a persons' religious beliefs is (or can be misconstrued as) a personal affront. The same thing almost always happens with political discussions. I made a joke in chat that Windows 10 and privacy should be added to that list of taboo subjects. But you're right. It does take training to discuss a controversial issue with minimal emotion. I see the world based on things that have happened to me in the past. I feel that there is something greater than I, watching out for my best interests. Too many things have happened in my life for me to call it coincidence. I'll leave it at that. Yeah...that's annoying. And it's something I try to turn a blind eye to. So, you're saying that because a person believes in GOD, or has a spiritual belief system, that they've "invented a fantasy / fiction story" and are not sane? Think about what you just said there, and how condescending and insulting you sound. How could you not expect an argumentative retort? "You reap what you sow"