[Info:] Windows 9 WDDM 2 DirectX 12

Discussion in 'Windows 8' started by moderate, Sep 22, 2014.

  1. moderate

    moderate MDL Guru

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    #1 moderate, Sep 22, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2014
    Hello,

    directx_12_overhead.png

    from the "CPU overhead comparison" (between DXv12 and DXv11) below is clear,
    that WDDMv2/DXv12 requires new driver model (no Kernel Mode Driver is utilized - blue part),
    so it is imcompatible with WDDMv1-x/DXv11.
    Also in WDDMv2 there will be no DXGI interface.
    There will be no DXv12 for WDDMv1-x, which also means, that there will be no DXv12 for W8-x or W7.
    So under W8-x the last version will be upcomming DXv11-3 with feature_level 11_3.
    DXv12 in W9 will also start with feature_level 11_3 then it will updated in time to another feature_level.
    Also it will be interesting, how many devices will be discarded with WDDMv2 arrival.

    Here are DX versions (compatibility-only info) and feature levels (full-support info):

    DX (Feature Level) OS
    11 (11_0) W7 RTM, full support for current WV after Platform Update KB971512 with supplement addon KB2117917 (KB971512 is graphic part of KB971644)
    11-1 (11_1) current W8-0, partial support for current W7 SP1 after Platform Update KB2670838
    11-2 (-) current W8-1
    11-3 and 12 (11_3) upcomming
     
  2. Hadron-Curious

    Hadron-Curious MDL Guru

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    #2 Hadron-Curious, Sep 22, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2014
    Can you explain in details? I don't have a good grasp of that graph. There seems to be effective 3D functionality under the thread 0. If I can guess correctly it means directX 12 can not make use of 3D effectively in multithreading.
     
  3. nim_

    nim_ MDL Novice

    Jan 28, 2011
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    so what you're saying is, Windows "9" will have DX12, Windows 8.x will never get it?
     
  4. moderate

    moderate MDL Guru

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    #4 moderate, Sep 22, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2014
    (OP)
    Upper part of graph is CPU overhead under DXv11, lower part is CPU overhead under DXv12, so CPU overhead under DXv12 is much better and that is why MS published the graph.
    However it also shows the fundamental change with missing KM Driver and missing DXGI, what makes it incompatible with current WDDMv1-1/DX11 scheme:

    dxgi_overview.png
     
  5. moderate

    moderate MDL Guru

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    #5 moderate, Sep 22, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2014
    (OP)
    Yes, W7 will get nothing new, W8-1-1 will probably get DXv11-3, which will not make current CPU overhead any better, but probably will have at least some features of DXv12.
     
  6. Marko93

    Marko93 MDL Novice

    Mar 21, 2013
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    DX 11.3 is identical to DX 12, it's the same feature level, except DX 12 reduces CPU overhead, and is more advanced for use and development, while DX 11.3 has CPU overhead but is easier to use and develop..
     
  7. moderate

    moderate MDL Guru

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    #7 moderate, Sep 22, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2014
    (OP)
    Yes in the current proposal both have same feature_level 11_3 with difference in CPU overhead, but DX 12 will envolve further, while DXv11-3 will not. Also there is an option, that in final draft the feature_level won't be same.
     
  8. aaaaalex

    aaaaalex MDL Member

    Sep 25, 2011
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    Will WDDM 1.x drivers work on Windows 9? Or it will require WDDM 2 drivers?
     
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  9. moderate

    moderate MDL Guru

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    WDDM v1-x will probably work in W9 TP, but nobody has information about W9 RTM.
    (There will be for sure software_WDDMv2 standard VGA driver working for all devices just like there is software_WDDMv1-x standard VGA driver in W8-x.)
     
  10. CorporateRAT

    CorporateRAT MDL Member

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    Doesn't matter. That's what "workarounds" are for. If the driver reports itself as WDDM compatible, that's what system will show you. Some of You older members might remember nVidiva advertising geforce fx as fully dx9 compliant:rolleyes:

     
  11. KenanK

    KenanK MDL Junior Member

    Sep 26, 2010
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    Nvidia GTX 650 for support dx12 ?
     
  12. d1glow

    d1glow MDL Addicted

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    #12 d1glow, Sep 22, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2014
    Most cards from NVidia 400 series and up and AMD 5000 series and up will get parts of DX 12 optimizations but what i don't get is the title... If Windows 8.1 is WDDM 3 how is windows 9 WDDM 2? wouldn't it be WDDM 4? WDDM 2 is on Windows 8.0 and WDDM 1.1 on Windows 7

    I can see that they need time to optimize and add new features to DX12 before RTM

    Windows 8.1 has Level (11_2) with tiled resources in which is the optimization part and is actually going to play a significant feature in Windows 9 since Windows 8.1 was a flop no one wanted to develop games with tiled resources which i think is going to shine in Windows 9

    Oh and if you are on an older OS its okay AMD has your back with Mantle which is just as good as DX12 if not better and you wont have to upgrade to have the latest Graphics. :p
     
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  13. FunkyMike

    FunkyMike MDL Member

    Jul 30, 2009
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    I am also interested in this. Wasn't it mentioned somewhere that older cards will be able to support DX12.

    Question is if AMD and Nvidia will really release DX12 drivers for their older cards.
     
  14. moderate

    moderate MDL Guru

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    #14 moderate, Sep 22, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2014
    (OP)
    You have to differentiate between full support (marked by feature_level) and compatibility only - ability to run (marked by DXversion).

    DXv12 full support (feature_level 11_3) have only upcoming GeForce GTX 970 a 980 while AMD actually gave no info yet.
    nVidia 650 will be however DXv12 compatible with proper WDDMv2 driver from nVidia.
     
  15. KenanK

    KenanK MDL Junior Member

    Sep 26, 2010
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    thank man ;) Win7 344.11 driver Dx api 11_0 but Win 8.1 api 11_2 :S win9 api 11_3 ?
     
  16. moderate

    moderate MDL Guru

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  17. d1glow

    d1glow MDL Addicted

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    #17 d1glow, Sep 22, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2014
    Feature Level 11_3 will be in the technical preview of Windows 9, DirectX 12 will be implemented in the RTM status of Windows 9 next year.

    Uh moderate your 8.1 facts are wrong bud. 5K and 6K series cards all have partial support for DirectX 11.2 (in the driver) but its very small extensions almost invisible as micro$oft didnt make a big deal of 11_2, same with 7K series. The R200 series is fully compatible with them all, Its impossible to have full DirectX 12 support right now since it doesn't exist. Reason you do not see Feature Level 11_2 is because no Software or games take advantage of it unless you tear a part an Nvidia or AMD driver you will not see it.

    Anyway like i posted in my previous comment that every just ignored, for anyone who watched Build back in April they stated that Nvidia cards 400 series and higher and AMD cards 5000, 6000, 7000, R200 will have DirectX 12 support not full support as there is no hardware out yet that supports it.

    NVidia will be behind abit to optimize there drivers for DirectX 12 to where as AMD will have support day one and optimize it after that. I dont know which generation of nvidia will have full hardware support but i do know that AMD's R300 series cards will have full blown support for DirectX 12.
     
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  18. moderate

    moderate MDL Guru

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    Since DXv12 and DXv11-3 both have SAME feature_level 11_3 now and now differs only with CPU overhead, this has no meaning. Maybe you wanted to say, that W9 TP is still WDDMv1-x based and final RTM will be WDDMv2 based (even maybe WITHOUT WDDMv1-x support)? I think that you can't be sure about anything about W9 TP unless you are MS internal emploee.

    In fact you are just saying SAME things as I did only with different words: There is no feature_level 11_2 defined. Only some specific AMD cards using (few) DXv11-2 functions.

    Again it is needed to differentiate between full support (using all features) (that is what "made as feature_level" marker was made for) and compatibility only (ability to run under that DX interface) (that is what "DXversion compatible" marker was made for).
     
  19. moderate

    moderate MDL Guru

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    #20 moderate, Sep 22, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2014
    (OP)
    This is different story. Simplified: DX is divided into two parts:
    1. DX core - there is backward compatibility with lower versions.
    2. DX extensions - there are many extensions defined. Each single extension is defined for specific DX core version and stored in DLL. So for example "d3dx9_35.dll" is extension number 35 for DXv9 D3Dpart. Problem is that starting from Windows Vista, the DX extension pack isn't complete on freshly installed OS, so some DXv9, DXv10 and DXv11 extensions are missing.
    However you can complete DX base (so install ALL available extensions for DXv9, DXv10 and DXv11) by installing so called "DXv9-0c-2010-06_redist" from link I posted above.

    When you don't have the required extension, OS will just prompt you, that you should "provide" the extension file (when you run the game) or if the game handles the situation, it then uses DXcore or different (lower) extension of course with non-optimal performance.