Discussion in 'macOS' started by gorski, Sep 13, 2010.
You need to login to view this posts content.
Kicking arse of other Linux distros, you mean.
Dunno about you but I would really love to see the Audio-Visual stuff [Live Messenger, Skype, other VoIP etc.] working really well, without the need for being a nerd to set it up properly and easily - but having all the Windows options there as well...
A few more editions and I am ditching Windows completely... Maybe...
One can always use the live cd to check it out and a persistence setup. Did try it once with a live CD. Subsequently after some days, tried to install in VM WS7 but took too long and gave up before completion.
It's getting better and better, as far as I can see... being a lay person...
What most users are going to need is:
1) support for their HW [Ubuntu is quite good at detecting it and installing the drivers, if with limited functionality sometimes, by comparison to Windows, including their peripherals, like printers/scanners]
2) Audio-Visual stuff [editing their photos or videos, from all sorts of devices or on/from the net, converting them into various formats etc.]
3) browsing safely and stably [Firefox is good like that! ]
4) burning stuff onto disks etc.
It seems to me, as I said, they are getting there, closer to the point where it will be simple, easy and good enough for us to wave good-bye to commercial sociopathic t***s...
Not sure I would limit it to other Linux...
This is very impressive for the average user, and I see many advantages over M$ in the making. If Ubuntu gets any more user friendly, it could be a real player (it isn't already???)..Open source is already very appealing to many, not being tied to an activation or other proprietary strings is HUGE..certainly if the OS is functional and fun...Many "M$ only" softwares work well with WINE and other crossover apps. All it takes is curiosity and some patience in most cases to peak the interest. After using the Linux for many years, I am torn, and have used XP in VM for a few years for the M$ necessary apps.
This is a fantastic alternative with a LOT of toys!!!
You need to login to view this posts content.
IMHO Linux can never become a mainstream home OS. Outside of the geek realm it doesn't kick arse at all. Not even the massively advertised Ubuntu. From a home user's perspective it is a fundamentally flawed OS, because the very openness that makes it appealing is also it's biggest problem.
Installations are one of the most painful procedures imaginable on Linux. The open community cannot agree on one installer type or installation path. Manual installers require the user to use the terminal and/or move files around. And if you're installing hardware you may be required to build drivers yourself from existing Windows drivers. Even years old known issues never get solved. For example some Belkin USB wifi adapters don't work no matter what you do. Not to mention Linux's endless potential for problems with graphics and sound especially after driver update.
I've tried a few distros myself and Ubuntu seemed the most mature, yet still totally unsuitable for the average Johnny User. As a web server on the other hand I wouldn't go for anything else but Linux.
Let's be realistic about it. Linux is a hobby and with Apple on the rise it'd be far more productive to hack-install OS X and try and make/maintain/update drivers for PC hackintosh rather than do the same for Linux and put up with it's plethora of other issues.
I beg to differ, as much as I recognise the old woes Linux used to have...
Well, unless you have seen the future... To jump from the past and present to future is a seriously flawed argument of a seriously conservative/cynical person, conveniently forgetting we can learn/change/improve, based on our imagination/creativity... You know what I mean...
Not necessarily. Continuing on my first point: Ubuntu has made huge improvements in detection and installation of drivers, as I already stated. I must reiterate, as this is no small feat! You plug it all in, turn it on and install... Most of the time Ubuntu finds and installs the drivers correctly, when installing the OS itself! No bother!
The Ubuntu community support, a part of its openness, is also cool. I personally felt it, as I had some issues with peripherals and later on, down the road, it was improved... May not be perfect, as I also stated, some drivers/apps have reduced functionality but they are perfectly usable.
Sometimes! That's what's missing in your paragraph. The qualification is a must there! Because sometimes it simply works!
On the other hand, I agree with you, it should always work with the appropriate installer.
Also, a step-by-step "how to" is a must! Not the geek "how to" but the lay person's "how to", without a single step missing! That is achievable for the community!
Certainly something to look into. But it doesn't strike me as something insurmountable. Why would you think that something like that must remain like that forever and ever is beyond me...
Sometimes a few terminal lines are enough. With a precise "how to" it's not a serious problem, on occasion. I agree that it should be an exception, though!
Still, I am NOT a geek, I am from Humanities, but I have installed a USB modem for a friend etc. So, not that kinda "rocket science difficult"... If it's as I describe above, it shouldn't be a serious problem...
I haven't seen that for a while, I must say... It used to happen a lot but since that millionaire started propping Ubuntu up... no, not really - not recently, let's put it that way...
That is bad! There should be an incentive to sort these issues out, agreed!
Never had that, I must say. Plus, one can roll back the update, so... ???
I think a visit to Ubuntu forum should change your mind. I mean, look at me... I have no idea how to programme, what's going on behind the scenes, as it were etc. etc. I simply install, configure and use...
Linux is much more than that! It's a job for some. They are creating better and better, user-friendlier OS and apps. Most servers run on Linux and ever more machines in every day use [netbooks etc.] use Linux, in particular Ubuntu - alone, no dual boot!
Give credit where credit is due. That's the reality you're evoking!
Maybe for iPhones and iPads but Macs - c'mon... EXTREMELY overpriced and not that simple and easy to use, as opposed to Windows and some Linux. I mean, talk about NOT being for an "average Johnny"... Or do you think that Johnny can fork out much more cash for a Mac when he can get a better machine, easier to use for less?
Let's be honest, if we are to understand the processes here: Windows is - SADLY!!!- the best OS on the planet. I repeat: SADLY! But that is the benchmark. Some things they have stolen from Linux, some from Mac but... Both can now learn from Windows.
Next step for Linux, to my mind, would be precisely that - availability of drivers, plus ease of usage, as you rightly point out, from installation onwards... They must learn those lessons. And Ubuntu certainly are, since their funding guru told them what to do...
As I was saying... give credit where credit is due and don't exaggerate, please...
I can see that your experience with Linux was not happy, but please understand that it also might be ... YOU as the main problem in that situation.
Even on Windows I have a perfectly valid hardware that works fine on XP, but never will on Win 7 (would that mean in your logic that Win7 is bad & unsuitable?)
Linux is NOT a hobby, quite few of my production servers running mission critical apps run on Linux... (and run with 0 problems)
Ubuntu is more then perfectly suitable for Joe Blog, honestly what such person uses?
Web browsing, email (usually web based), media playback, ocassional letter
Leave Mac OS X out of it, it is made for specific hardware, and if you can put it on a PC & get it fully working then it is a bonus for you (that you have something working in a way not designed for)
WOW! I didn't realize how personal this topic may be to some people. Let me react to some of your points. Please, take into account that I do support free software development (using OpenOffice to spell-check this, plus I also have donated a few pounds to it) and I am NOT advocating for or against Linux or any other operating system. I also used to be an active contributing member of os-Commerce community and satellite TV encryption hacker community already in the old analog day. The only reason I joined this debate is the fanfare with which every new Ubuntu build is being released and the incredibly ignorant remarks elsewhere in this forum towards OS X, labelling it a “glorified Linux”.
I have simply expressed my honest opinion. That's what “IMHO” stands for. I'm not going to psycho-analyse you and brand you the way you branded me a conservative cynic, as it is not my place to do so. I don't know you. I would just urge you to not only use that enlightenment quote as your signature, but also read it.
1; Since you've expressed such confidence in hardware detection, try to detect all versions of Belkin Wireless G+ USB Adapter (F5D7051). And no, the widely available How To doesn't work for everybody.
2; I don't know what exactly it is you do for living, but I'm guessing you are quite savvy on the terminal side of things. If that is the case then I can see how you could have lost the ability to critically and objectively asses the abilities of the average Johnny User. In my old days as a computer technician I have met hundreds of people unable to perform the most trivial installation tasks under Windows, such as printer installations. All they had to do is read the installer messages on their screens and click buttons appropriately. Contrary to what you may think, these people are utterly incapable of following any however well written How To's in Linux. These people are also the majority that drives the home user IT business. Bottom line, my opinion is based on real life observations, not just my own Linux experience.
3; Another thing is your trust in surmountability of the installer type and path issues. It's been about 20 years since the first Linux, but it's not getting any closer to a consensus on this issue.
4; As for installations that go wrong, you say rolling back driver updates is a possibility. But just how is Johnny User going to roll back a failed graphics card update, when after reboot his Linux boots into text mode? With no GUI the good old Johnny is lost. Not to mention he may end up in text mode without fiddling with the graphics drivers.
5; Do you remember how Vista got bashed for hardware incompatibility? Every Linux distro to date has the same and bigger issues, but you don't necessarily see it that way.
6; My last comment would be about the overpriced Apple Mac platform. Seriously, I thought that any intelligent and unbiased person would have figured it out by now. There is hardly any difference in price of a Mac vs. PC of similar specification. Currently the iMac 21.5-inch costs £1249. My PC of similar spec already cost me over £900 and I have no support and very little legal software on it. Also, you don't really need to upgrade an Intel based Mac the way you need to do this with a PC. Snow Leopard works just as fine as Leopard before it on the same machine. It has been like that before they used intel CPU's and it will be the same for future OS X releases madefor the Intel platform.
I know all this, because after 12 years of working with all sorts of Windows machines I now work for Apple, which gave me the chance to objectively compare the platforms. Therefore I stand behind what I said earlier. Linux is a hobby. The hobby-job analogy doesn't really help your argument, because there are countless hobbies that feed people and I do not deny that. The question is if Linux is suitable for any average home user. I say it isn't and people who call OSX a glorified Linux need to get a clue. The only reason they talk that way is because they expect all other OS's to be the new Windows. They want everything to look like Windows, behave like Windows, install like Windows, but not be Windows.
I acknowledge the great work done by the Linux community and kudos to them for the effort, but there are only two real OS's for home users and we all know what they are, although we'd like it weren't so. Linux isn't one of them.
To sum it all up, the day Linux reaches at least Vistas hardware compatibility and eliminates the need for using the terminal, will be a day that even I will celebrate. Linux will have then become a real user friendly OS. I will also mourn that day, because on that day Linux will cease to be open and free.
Sorry for the lengthy post, but that's what you get when you debate an ages old argument. At least we are having a debate, though
My experience with Linux is irrelevant and I do not appreciate your tone. Your conclusion on my Linux problems and my logic are miles off, so don't put words I didn't say into my mouth.
I have clearly said that I see nothing wrong with Linux server, but its server suitability hardly qualifiers it for home use. For example I myself prefer Linux server for web hosting.
I will not leave Mac OS X out of this, because it is running on hardware that is available to everybody. If you don't want to use Windows OS, you can build a PC, install Linux on it and hope everything will work. The chances are not everything will work out of the box and you may spend significant amount of time and resources trying to make stuff work. Also, you'll have to do without a lot of stuff that makes PC and Mac users lives easier and be satisfied with community software that resembles the real thing.
Alternatively, you can build a Hackintosh PC, hack-install OS X on it and enjoy a professional OS with tons of pre-installed software. You'll also have the possibility to buy and easily install real professional software including Photoshop, MS Office, real audio/video editing etc, etc.
I don't believe that people have to agree on every aspect of a given issue. I do however believe, that statements made for the sake of winning an argument with a disregard for the reality of the matter is not helping either side.
Linux DOES have serious hardware and installation issues which DOES make it very awkward for the average user to get comfortable with. I am not having an unfinished product forced upon me under any misleading pretense, like belonging to a cool and free group of people. It is simply too soon for Linux to claim user friendliness or to aspire for main stream acceptability and I don't care what the marketing strategy of any millionaire tycoon says.
Since only the significantly computer savvy people are able to run Linux with a minimum of problems and since professional software for the OS is very scarce, Linux can not be taken seriously as a home OS and branding it a hobby is appropriate. From the server point of view it is a different matter, because administrators are usually required to have attended seminars and/or training courses, which automatically puts them way above the average Johnny User.
Does it mean that Hackintosh can be achieved by just about everybody on any PC based hardware?
Be honest to yourself, it is not something Joe Blog can do, so please leave it out of the equation!
Sorry, but what you say above makes no much sense...
Yes, it is YHO & let it stay this way
You do not want/can/feel like using Linux, then do not!
At least we still live in (semi)-free world, so the choice is yours
Forget your problem with F5D7051, I can give you few hardware that Win 7 also will not support!
"...Vista got bashed for hardware incompatibility..." - and it should, it was $400 software that did not work, do not compare it to free Linux distro!
I am not defending Linux on a desktop, it is yet far away from Business desktop
But I can not agree with your statement branding in not usable, it IS perfectly usable on home desktop, especially that one can just boot from VHD, so your other OS is totally uneffected should you wish to use it
Honestly speaking? OK...
I salute the fact you fessed up to a few things above. Seriously! Makes it easier to be really honest. Not to offend you [!!!] but to make you see what it looks like to me, from "the other end"... K, here goes...
Wow. Now working for Apple. Who could've figured it out from the "impersonal" post of yours... No, not personal at all... On top of that, the McBigot community, speaking honestly, like yourself, never drew me, I must confess and now you can see why...
Seriously, when have you last really checked the contents going under the notion of "freeware", not to mention "warez"? Some MS stuff ain't bad either, mind... We are forced to get some of it when we buy a lappy/PC, just like you are buying a Mac... Oh, sorry, you haven't, I suppose, since you're working for Apple...
£1249 v. 900+. Hmmm... Tough... But I'll tell you honestly that what my wife and I got in terms of laptops costs £500 + £550 and in Mac terms it would have been x 2! No kidding! A bit of shopping around and getting "a good deal" and it's nowhere near of "nearly only a quarter more expensive"... Not to me, it isn't!
I could go on but what's the point?
Whoever can't see this as a process and not as a state of affairs - shouldn't be posting anywhere, so as not to blush too much in a few years time.
That is what it took Ubuntu from "geek" to "for Human Beings"... Still getting there, sure, you are correct.
But you are utterly incorrect to try to substitute one incorrectly identified and not properly installed device for many, many thousands of correctly recognised and properly installed. Sorry, that is just soooooooooooooo lame, it hurts how "impersonal" this seems to be for you...
So, taking into account your "impartiality" I have to say "never mind"...
Sorry, forgot your "objectivity" incarnate:
How many times do I have to say I have no clue about programming/terminal/etc. and that I need DETAILED step-by-step to succeed with terminal stuff?!?
And you build your argument on that kinda "objectivity" and "impartiality"? Jeezusssss....
For the umpteenth time: I am from Humanities and not tech sciences and can not programme etc. etc.
So, back to the drawing board for you...
Hmm... I am lost for words. The mere fact I work for Apple was enough for you to label me again and put me in one pot with the whatever Bigot community. Frankly, I don't give a rats ass about the supporter wars. I just work for them. I don't think or breathe Apple. I've enough going on in my personal life to be involved in post-pubescent activities such as that. Moreover, I have no reason to be partial, because my opinion cannot influence the way markets work.
There are pros and cons to every OS on the market and I will not be drawn to another lengthy attempt to explain myself. If Linux is working for you as you want it to, then good for you. But why do you still refuse to understand, that you are not the average Johnny User is beyond me. I am talking about the masses, the crowd that doesn't have a clue. And that crowd outnumber us by millions. If you were an IT technician that recommended e.g. an EeePC you'd never get another job in the given area.
I could also go on about affordability and overall price of PC vs. Mac, but as you correctly stated, what's the point?
I was hoping for a debate with unbiased people but all you seem to do is engage in personal attacks based on my supposed McBigotry, while nothing could be further form the truth.
BTW, I only mentioned ONE piece of hardware I had problems with. Stop pretending everything else is fine. To install my Epson DX4450 printer I had to use the terminal and play around with files. Linux is about as hardware friendly as OSX on a PC. Yes, that is an exaggeration, but also a very telling comical comparison.
Linux doesn't measure up to Windows or OS X in any practical way.
As we have already stated [not just me]:
1) Web browsing.
2) Watching movies and listening to music.
3) Recording A-V stuff and editing it - all freeware.
4) Writing emails/letters.
5) Safely banking/shopping etc.
6) Educational stuff! FREEWARE!!!
Soon A-V chatting and VoIP easily done.
And not going into servers... For now!
But what's the point?!?
There you go again putting words into my mouth. Where did I say that? How do you even survive jumping to conclusions like that? I have explicitly said "it is running on hardware that is available to everybody". That means everybody can buy the correct hardware. I never said it was achievable on just any hardware. But the same applies to Linux, so what's your point? And where did I say Linux is not usable?
BTW comparing a "non working" $400 OS to an even worse working FREE OS makes a lot of sense, of course.
I'm sorry, but I'm done talking to you, sebus. You need to learn respect for other people and their opinions. I should have known by the way you called a guy stupid for asking how to activate his XP.
blank, blank, blank