Ubuntu 10.10 coming on 10th OCtober to kick some arse!!!

Discussion in 'macOS' started by gorski, Sep 13, 2010.

  1. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
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    Nah. Because you are NOT reading other people's experiences and you are basing your "judgement" solely on your experience. Not at all personal... just... ermmm... let's see... Oh, well... beat me there... it's "personal"... :D
     
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  2. flasher

    flasher MDL Novice

    Jul 29, 2009
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    Right back at you!
    So far, you havent replied to a single point i made!

    I have read your posts, and i believe your experience to be true.
    But i am talking about structural problems of linux in my posts. Most of what i have pointed out are facts, its not an opinion, its what i base my opinion on:

    The way you have to install a driver if you want the latest version. The fact that the software in the repositories is outdated most of the time. The fact that security patches are only delivered at the mercy of the repository manager (who does his "work" in his spare time for free). The fact that for many settings you still have to edit text files (configuring mouse buttons for example). The fact that you often have to use the command line and therefore need at least a basic knowledge of commands to use linux! The fact that you have to know what "dependencies" are and how to solve them, especially if you want to install software thats not in the repository. The list could go on forever...

    Again: These are the facts i base my opinion on.
     
  3. OmniBlade

    OmniBlade MDL Novice

    Oct 10, 2009
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    I thought we were talking about typical useage cases? For you to be trying to upgrade your graphics driver beyond that supplied by the repo (or windows updates for windows) you are already in the vanishing minority of computer users.

    Windows 7 32bit is an improvement I admit, its about time it got close to linux in terms of harware compatibility since I hate hunting down drivers. However if you happen to be using an old integrated graphics chipset or happen to be using the 64bit version things aren't anywhere near as straight forward as you make out. I've also installed on many different systems of varying age too and my experience seems to differ quite a lot from yours. Then again we are both in a minority of users here, almost no one will be installing the OS from scratch unless they know what they are doing.

    I've already address the driver issue, a user updating outside of the repo (or windows update) is a minority of users, certainly not typical. Most people don't even update their software ever once it is installed and working, so a repo pushing updates for all software on the system (even if it lags behind the head version) is still better than no updates pushed, or a dozen different update processes using up system resources. Edit text files and use the command line? When did you last use linux? Then again, try trouble shooting windows issues without resorting to cmd.exe. Again you complain about doing things outside the repo... that is not something a typical user will come across, but even then for popular distros like ubuntu or fedora, there are often double clickable .deb or rpm packages that the package manager will install and solve dependancies for. The more used by less techincal users they become, the more packages like that will appear.

    I'm sorry, but most of your complaints are niche useage cases typical users either don't entertain or won't encounter on typical use.
     
  4. flasher

    flasher MDL Novice

    Jul 29, 2009
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    That is just not true. I hope we can agree that a tv-card is not a niche product. Anyway, i have one and the drivers for it werent in the repo. The only software that could play tv in the repo didnt work. Obviously i then searched for another software outside the repo. i even found one, which took me several hours to install. Afterwards i finally could watch some programs but not all. At this point i gave up.

    Installing software outside the repo isnt as atypical as you try to make it look. the first thing everybody does when something doesnt work, or if they need more functionality, is use google to search for a solution. If they find out that a newer version or a different software solves their problem many people might download and try to install it, even if it isnt in the repo!

    Everybody always goes on about how "free" open source is, and now you tell me anybody who wants it to be easy should stick to the confinement of the repo?
     
  5. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
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    Go away, flasher... and learn to debate... it means - amongst other things - being able to hear the other and his/her argument.... FFS...
     
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  6. alextheg

    alextheg Super Moderator
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    Jan 7, 2009
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    Why do discussions about Linux get so heated ? Come on guys lets keep it friendly, on topic and not personal.
    My 2 cents.......... Linux does have something to offer. However its not for the typical home user, one needs to learn to use linux. Ok, the gui is much better these days but flasher has a point. Driver installation is not straight forward unless one has a grasp of the commands involved. M$ should keep a close eye on Linux as i feel its heading in a very competitive direction. The only thing holding it back is ease of use imho. If Linux wants to appeal to a larger audience then they need to work on this. Personally though im looking forward to 10.10.
     
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  7. OmniBlade

    OmniBlade MDL Novice

    Oct 10, 2009
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    *sigh* Driver installation? You are not a typical user if you are trying to install drivers, the typical user does not add TV cards to their own system or update their graphics card drivers. We are not typical users, typical users do not visit sites like this. If a typical user wants to do the above, they bring their system to someone like us to sort out for them. Its is the advanced and power user experience that is much less GUI driven and in many cases less user friendly on linux but it is also much more flexible. There also are far fewer people the typical user will have in their social circle that can deal with issues on linux compared to windows or advise them on the benefits and drawbacks of linux for them. Typical user experience is pretty much on par between Linux and Windows, it is the many other things that differ that affects linux adoption.
     
  8. flasher

    flasher MDL Novice

    Jul 29, 2009
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    I disagree. A driver installation is something a typical user does. A lot of games even require you to install newer graphics card drivers to play them in windows. Not all games install them right away. Many link to the website where you can download them. I know you cant really play games on linux, but my point is that its not uncommon for a typical user to have to install a driver.

    *sigh* That is only true for your definition of a typical user... As soon as someone wants to install a driver or an appllication not in a repository, windows is a lot easier since every installation works the same way.
     
  9. sebus

    sebus MDL Guru

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    #49 sebus, Oct 7, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2010
    Normal user on Windows/Mac/Linux do NOT install new drivers for existing peripherals that do work!

    And if ALL Mac updates were not coming down via Software Update, none of the users would update anything either
    (I have my Windows users asking if they need to update they Windows home workstation, because they got some message from the system about it - THAT is a typical user!)

    The only time they will install a driver is when they buy a new printer or a camera & it comes on a CD

    You do not have to believe me, but I do works with 100's of normal typical users!

    sebus
     
  10. flasher

    flasher MDL Novice

    Jul 29, 2009
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    I have said many times before, that linux is fine for anyone who doesn't install anything (drivers or software). Its the type of users that do want to install something (other than whats in the repo) who will have problems with linux, and not windows. In that sense windows appeals to a larger group of people - those who dont install anything and those who do.

    So it doesnt really matter which group is bigger, since you can have it all in windows :p
     
  11. Bosh

    Bosh MDL Developer

    May 30, 2010
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    #51 Bosh, Oct 7, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2010
    Ok, let me say first that I'm not a linux or windows fanboy. I just want to add what I think to the discussion.

    A linux user needs to have a little more knowledge of how an OS works, let me give you an example of why I think that:

    The updates in Ubuntu are something like: "libXYZ-.2.45_ubuntu4", and that's totally fine if you know that it doesn't matter the name, it's just something that needs to be updated, or another example the messages of "need to update kernel headers", but for someone that doesn't know about that, it just gets compicated to understand all that weird names and what they have to do with their computer.

    OK, it's not that it's not userfriendly, it's just that there are some things that are completely natural to us the computer enthusiasts, but for the average user are difficult to understand.

    In windows, there's an "enclosing" of how the OS works, the updates just tell you a little bit about them, but for the average user the are always the same just with a different number, the detail level of the update given to the user is less in windows, because the average user doesn't need to know the details, in fact it would get more complicated.
    It's like taking a car to a workshop, but before repairing the car, the employee explains everything he's going to do with technical language, most of the people wouldn't care or understand.



    I want to give another example: for my mom was a nightmare to find files in ubuntu (something that is trivial for most of us), and when she tried windows (yes XP), she was amazed of how easy it was for her. And yes, the first OS she used was ubuntu, because I installed it in my first home's PC some years ago.

    So, concluding my comment (and I don't want answers to this, it's just my personal experience which could be totally different to yours, so no need to argue) I think that linux has come very close to windows but still needs a little bit more work in the usability, specially after windows 7.

    BTW: I really like Ubuntu, looking forward 10.10 :D
     
  12. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
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    #52 gorski, Oct 7, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2010
    (OP)
    It's like talking to a wall, flasher...

    I am one of those who must install an ATI driver to get advanced functions. And it's dead easy. As are updates to all of the stuff in your PC. As is getting stuff from the net and installing it in a flash, with a couple of clicks. Windows not only doesn't have it - it can not have it!

    Also, for my peripherals, like AIO printer, I had to learn a bit, search a bit but I did it. I get less functions than in Windows. But it is printing and scanning!

    Then, for VoIP, I must mess with Linphone etc.

    And if I can, a lay person, then anyone can.

    On the other hand, I had an older PC with older HW and Vista wouldn't even begin going into it, plus W7 didn't have the drivers. Linux went into it and it had the drivers.

    Go figure...

    But I am sure you will not. Because you know how to debate issues, because you CAN hear others and you will not be prejudiced... :rolleyes:

    Look, I was prejudiced against Linux, initially. I was "formed" - in the IT sense - by Windows. It all looked daunting and even a bit scary...

    But if one isn't a quitter and/or spiritually lazy, if one actually likes learning - IT IS FUN!!! And it's free!!! And it's good! And getting better. Well, obviously it is, since even I have managed to go down Linux Lane... ;) :)
     
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  13. Bosh

    Bosh MDL Developer

    May 30, 2010
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    Ok, adding again :) :

    In my old home PC I could never get the ATI drivers to work in ubuntu 7.04, I know a lot of thigs have changed now, but in my experience linux is still far away from "the best" in drivers, I couldn't even install a motorola usb modem, because there was no driver, and the generics didn't work at that time. And in windows voilĂ , just connected to the internet and the drivers were installed automatically. But also I'm not saying that windows is "the best", what I'm trying to say is that in my experience winwows was better, in your experience linux was better, and you will always find more peolple in my and your situation.

    The goal here is to let you know that both of your experiences are just some part of but not the whole truth, that's why none of you undestands each other.

    Let the time open your minds :)
     
  14. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
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    Oh, I understand him perfectly.

    He, on the other hand... Oh, well...

    I stated that Win is still the best, sure, overall... But I added "sadly"...

    And I stated that Lin made a great leap forward since being propped up by a millionaire...

    Moreover, in some ways it is better than Windows. Not only cheaper! And it's getting to the user-friendly side, too!!

    But for him, no balanced argument could be had, unless "Win is best!" is stated immediately and unequivocally.

    Or Mac, in another case. Depending on who you're working for at the moment... Such is their "objectivity"...

    Bless...
     
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  15. flasher

    flasher MDL Novice

    Jul 29, 2009
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    #55 flasher, Oct 8, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2010
    Oh, i understand you perfectly! Everything seems to be easier for you in Ubuntu. Although you admit that you "had to learn a little bit" and that you cant use all of your printers functions, you conclude that "if I can, a lay person, then anyone can". For me this sounds like: "if its easy for me, and if i can live with the drawbacks, it has to be okay for everybody". You even go on to say that those who dont want to learn are "lazy" and "quitters".

    And thats exactly where i disagree. I, and many others want an OS that "just works". The OS shouldnt be work in itself - which is exactly what linux is! Its hard work to get everything up and running, it takes a lot of work to customize the OS, and you are bombarded with technobabble, which gives you even more work if you want to understand it. Its frustrating that you have to read long articles even if you just want to do basic things like setting up your mouse or connecting your cellphone.
    I can understand that you think of this as a great learning experience. For many others who have a 9-5 job, who have to take care of a family, who need their computer for their job to make money, they simply dont have time to learn all this, and its unacceptable. And thats one of the biggest reasons why linux is unsuccessful.

    edit: oh, and about your issues with windows: if vista wouldnt install on an old pc (maybe because it didnt have enough ram?) it wouldnt have run well anyway! For these kinds of situations linux is a viable alternative. One even i might chose, if i dont have enough money to buy a new pc or notebook.
     
  16. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
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    #56 gorski, Oct 8, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2010
    (OP)
    If you bother to read what I actually wrote you might see I never implied that EVERYTHING is better in Ubuntu. I even stated that Win is still the best overall - but oh, no... Which speaks volumes about you.

    And it says that I was exactly right on the money, as far as you are concerned because unless somebody immediately and absolutely states that everything is better in Win all the time and that it will never change - they are "just not getting it", blah-blah...

    Win just DOESN'T WORK FOR EVERYBODY!!! WE STATED A NUMBER OF EXAMPLES BUT YOU KEEP BANGING ON REGARDLESS, LIKE A LITTLE SCARED KID...

    Grow up, FFS!!!!

    Over an out!
     
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  17. flasher

    flasher MDL Novice

    Jul 29, 2009
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    lol, i have said repeatedly that Linux is fine for certain usage cases, but all you seem to read is "linux sux". I'm glad you finally decided to stop replying, btw.
     
  18. MrG

    MrG MDL Expert

    May 31, 2010
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    Last night I installed Ubuntu 10.10 RC on a VMware application, my first time I've tried Ubuntu or anything Linux.
    I found & followed some step-by-step instructions & had no problems at all, the install took 21 minutes to hit the desktop.

    This RC works very good, no code to type in & comes w/ a lot of free software/apps/games included.

    I'll keep testing this until the RTM is released then dump the RC & install that one.
     
  19. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
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    Some apps might not work very well but...

    Synaptic Manager gets you millions of apps with a couple of clicks and many do work immediately and really well!!!

    Good luck! :)

    [...it's fun, really... ;)]
     
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  20. Matrix Leader

    Matrix Leader MDL Addicted

    Dec 8, 2009
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    when is 10.10 going to be released?
     
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