Hi @endbase what is the password of the archive ccc21d999a73da35efb6dc1f6025b063 multiup, I am interested in the Italian LTSB 2016 version "DEC5088AA2867C94BE9EE8A5C99735963E1B6EE1" sorry for the writing, but it doesn't make me insert the link because I don't have enough posts
Testing Source ISO used: Code: Name: en_windows_10_enterprise_2016_ltsb_n_x64_dvd_9057894.iso Size: 3454820352 bytes (3294 MiB) CRC32: E8083515 CRC64: 1F8DDD04B83DC812 SHA256: 1CF84D3A00832ED8726480CFBADAC62AE9D8B8DA38DDE0F373262FB40E908AF1 SHA1: B5D4911BD53EC5029781ADE0937DAD43C4ED90F6 BLAKE2sp: 16F45E88D3D96DCE4AF64B65D55244C88E16112DCF7FA4C550037E8E3463099E Btw, these are the updates offered by WHD for 14393: Code: 0b61d9a03db731562e0a0b49383342a4d8cbe36a *Windows10.0-KB4486129-x64-NDP48.msu bdc2748cbbc1578453eee78cf08b07ce8d005abe *windows10.0-kb4561600-x64_bdc2748cbbc1578453eee78cf08b07ce8d005abe.msu 19eae0b34464284e4a96f9209e4ed7cd146d5a1e *Windows10.0-KB4565912-x64.msu d0493cbcc6681dc3b4f6418d879ed011f226ba25 *Windows10.0-KB4569746-x64-NDP48.msu 220af1e3a18ef36cb4abe3d34a3ce15ce656753b *Windows10.0-KB4571694-x64.msu First i let W10UI_8.5 run with the updates your 8.5 run showed: Code: ============================================================ [1] Target (x64): "h:\TEST_2016_LTSB\LTSB_N_x64" [2] Updates: "H:\TEST_2016_LTSB" [3] DISM: "Windows 10 ADK" [4] Enable .NET 3.5: NO [5] Cleanup System Image: NO [7] Update WinRE.wim: YES [M] Mount Directory: "c:\W10UImount_1293" [E] Extraction Directory: "H:\W10UItemp_25920" ============================================================ Change a menu option, press 0 to start the process, or 9 to exit: Code: ============================================================ Running W10UI v8.5 ============================================================ ============================================================ Extracting .cab files from .msu files ============================================================ 1/6: windows10.0-kb4462930-x64_aa56f192a75aac0029cd9a39d5ebf3eb625feebd.msu 2/6: windows10.0-kb4486129-x64_0b61d9a03db731562e0a0b49383342a4d8cbe36a.msu 3/6: windows10.0-kb4550993-x64-ndp48_f193152dd33ee54ed353b0eceacfec89d2226c14.msu 4/6: windows10.0-kb4561600-x64_bdc2748cbbc1578453eee78cf08b07ce8d005abe.msu 5/6: windows10.0-kb4565912-x64_19eae0b34464284e4a96f9209e4ed7cd146d5a1e.msu 6/6: windows10.0-kb4571694-x64_220af1e3a18ef36cb4abe3d34a3ce15ce656753b.msu ============================================================ Extracting files from update cabinets (.cab) *** This will require some disk space, please be patient *** ============================================================ 1/6: Windows10.0-KB4462930-x64.cab [Flash] 2/6: Windows10.0-KB4486129-x64.cab [NetFx] 3/6: Windows10.0-KB4550993-x64-NDP48.cab [NetFx] 4/6: Windows10.0-KB4561600-x64.cab [Flash] 5/6: Windows10.0-KB4565912-x64.cab [SSU] 6/6: Windows10.0-KB4571694-x64.cab [LCU] ============================================================ Mounting sources\install.wim - index 1/1 ============================================================ Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.1 Mounting image [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. ============================================================ Checking Updates... ============================================================ ============================================================ Installing servicing stack update... ============================================================ Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.1 Image Version: 10.0.14393.0 Processing 1 of 1 - Adding package Package_for_KB4565912~31bf3856ad364e35~amd64~~14393.3801.1.1 [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. ============================================================ Installing updates... ============================================================ Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.1 Image Version: 10.0.14393.3801 Processing 1 of 4 - Adding package Package_for_KB4462930~31bf3856ad364e35~amd64~~10.0.1.0 [==========================100.0%==========================] Processing 2 of 4 - Adding package Package_for_KB4486129~31bf3856ad364e35~amd64~~10.0.1.3106 [==========================100.0%==========================] Processing 3 of 4 - Adding package Package_for_KB4550993~31bf3856ad364e35~amd64~~10.0.1.3162 [==========================100.0%==========================] Processing 4 of 4 - Adding package Package_for_KB4561600~31bf3856ad364e35~amd64~~10.0.1.0 [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.1 Image Version: 10.0.14393.3801 Processing 1 of 1 - Adding package Package_for_RollupFix~31bf3856ad364e35~amd64~~14393.3866.1.6 [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. ============================================================ Updating winre.wim ============================================================ Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.1 Mounting image [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.1 Image Version: 10.0.14393.0 Processing 1 of 1 - Adding package Package_for_KB4565912~31bf3856ad364e35~amd64~~14393.3801.1.1 [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.1 Image Version: 10.0.14393.3801 Processing 1 of 1 - Adding package Package_for_RollupFix~31bf3856ad364e35~amd64~~14393.3866.1.6 [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.1 Image Version: 10.0.14393.3801 [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.1 Image File : H:\TEST_2016_LTSB\winre.wim Image Index : 1 Saving image [==========================100.0%==========================] Unmounting image [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.1 Exporting image [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. ============================================================ Adding updated winre.wim ============================================================ 1 file(s) copied. ============================================================ Unmounting sources\install.wim - index 1/1 ============================================================ Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.1 Image File : h:\TEST_2016_LTSB\LTSB_N_x64\sources\install.wim Image Index : 1 Saving image [==========================100.0%==========================] Unmounting image [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. ============================================================ Rebuilding sources\install.wim ============================================================ Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.1 Exporting image [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. ============================================================ Mounting sources\boot.wim - index 1/2 ============================================================ Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.1 Mounting image [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. ============================================================ Checking Updates... ============================================================ ============================================================ Installing servicing stack update... ============================================================ Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.1 Image Version: 10.0.14393.0 Processing 1 of 1 - Adding package Package_for_KB4565912~31bf3856ad364e35~amd64~~14393.3801.1.1 [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. ============================================================ Installing updates... ============================================================ Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.1 Image Version: 10.0.14393.3801 Processing 1 of 1 - Adding package Package_for_RollupFix~31bf3856ad364e35~amd64~~14393.3866.1.6 [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. ============================================================ Resetting WinPE image base ============================================================ Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.1 Image Version: 10.0.14393.3801 [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. ============================================================ Unmounting sources\boot.wim - index 1/2 ============================================================ Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.1 Image File : h:\TEST_2016_LTSB\LTSB_N_x64\sources\boot.wim Image Index : 1 Saving image [==========================100.0%==========================] Unmounting image [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. ============================================================ Mounting sources\boot.wim - index 2/2 ============================================================ Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.1 Mounting image [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. ============================================================ Checking Updates... ============================================================ ============================================================ Installing servicing stack update... ============================================================ Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.1 Image Version: 10.0.14393.0 Processing 1 of 1 - Adding package Package_for_KB4565912~31bf3856ad364e35~amd64~~14393.3801.1.1 [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. ============================================================ Installing updates... ============================================================ Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.1 Image Version: 10.0.14393.3801 Processing 1 of 1 - Adding package Package_for_RollupFix~31bf3856ad364e35~amd64~~14393.3866.1.6 [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. ============================================================ Resetting WinPE image base ============================================================ Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.1 Image Version: 10.0.14393.3801 [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. ============================================================ Unmounting sources\boot.wim - index 2/2 ============================================================ Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.1 Image File : h:\TEST_2016_LTSB\LTSB_N_x64\sources\boot.wim Image Index : 2 Saving image [==========================100.0%==========================] Unmounting image [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. ============================================================ Rebuilding sources\boot.wim ============================================================ Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.1 Exporting image [==========================100.0%==========================] Exporting image [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. ============================================================ Removing temporary extracted files... ============================================================ ============================================================ Creating updated ISO file... ============================================================ OSCDIMG 2.56 CD-ROM and DVD-ROM Premastering Utility Copyright (C) Microsoft, 1993-2012. All rights reserved. Licensed only for producing Microsoft authorized content. Scanning source tree (500 files in 13 directories) Scanning source tree complete (984 files in 97 directories) Computing directory information complete Image file is 4713414656 bytes (before optimization) Writing 984 files in 97 directories to Win10_14393.3866_x64_2020-08-20.iso 100% complete Storage optimization saved 31 files, 14678016 bytes (1% of image) After optimization, image file is 4700997632 bytes Space saved because of embedding, sparseness or optimization = 14678016 Done. ============================================================ Finished ============================================================ Press 9 to exit. Ik zie al een verschil/i already notice a difference. = an old CU from 2019, why are you integrating it?
@Enthousiast hehe, that's weird.... As u noticed, W10UI only installs 3 of them, and skips the SSU (19EAE0B34464284E4A96F9209E4ED7CD146D5A1E) I missed the windows10.0-kb4569746-x64-ndp48[CU].msu indeed. WHD reports only the Flash Security one, and also skips the NPD4.8 update (that i named windows10.0-kb4550993-x64[DTNET48_SU]) and it's obviously not a Security update, my bad! I also use that Dism version on a Windows 7 setup (No W10 ADK) Normally, this works just fine with all the scripts. Only with LTSB i have this issue...atm running again and removed a "regkey" because of that error 0x800f0922. I have only the last key.. Code: Processing 1 of 1 - Adding package C:\updates\w10\windows10.0-kb4512517-x64.msu [========================== 45.0% yes, older KB....just for testing Code: Method 5: Removing Certain Registry Values Some registry values can also cause the error 0x800f0922 to appear. So, you must look for these entries and remove them. However, before you proceed, you must know that the registry is a sensitive database. Even the smallest error can cause system instability issues. So, you must only try this solution if you are confident with your tech skills. 1.Open the Run dialog box by pressing Windows Key+R. 2.Type “regedit” (no quotes), then press Enter. 3.Navigate to this path: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\WINEVT\Publishers 4.Right-click Publishers, then select Export from the menu. 5.Choose the location for exporting this key, then type your preferred file name. Click Save. If you make any mistake, you can run this file to restore the key to its original state. 6.Look for the following keys, then remove them: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\WINEVT\Publishers\{e7ef96be-969f-414f-97d7-3ddb7b558ccc} HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\WINEVT\Publishers\{8c416c79-d49b-4f01-a467-e56d3aa8234c} Once you’ve deleted those keys, check if the error persists. damnit Cheers for testing..testbaas edit: I did that just to test, as i can't get the latest one installed. All others are no problem doing them manually with dism. So..yeah atm trying that old one....just to see if it works u know
@Enthousiast haha het werkt gewoon Really, never had a problem using Windows 7 on both scripts (urs and from abbodi1406) I can however jump to Windows 10 and try again with thew ADK, doing that later on and post results... edit: haha, a little slow there i see 15% lol nah, thx for testing as usual It's annoying when things aint working lol edit2 Same error on that KB... Code: Processing 1 of 1 - Adding package C:\updates\w10\windows10.0-kb4512517-x64.msu [==========================100.0%==========================] C:\updates\w10\windows10.0-kb4512517-x64.msu: An error occurred applying the Unattend.xml file from the .msu package. For more information, review the log file. Error: 0x800f0922 And i'm positive the files are fine (SHA1)....
As you can see, on a clean source all integrate as expected, still waiting for it to finish boot.wim. The WHD updates test run is also on its way on the other system.
The test with your updates listed finished, updated my post. WHD Updates test also finished: Code: ============================================================ [1] Target (x64): "d:\share\Test_2016_LTSB\LTSB_N_x64" [2] Updates: "D:\share\Test_2016_LTSB" [3] DISM: "Host OS" [4] Enable .NET 3.5: NO [5] Cleanup System Image: NO [7] Update WinRE.wim: YES [M] Mount Directory: "c:\W10UImount_2501" [E] Extraction Directory: "D:\W10UItemp_16527" ============================================================ Change a menu option, press 0 to start the process, or 9 to exit: Code: ============================================================ Running W10UI v8.5 ============================================================ ============================================================ Extracting .cab files from .msu files ============================================================ 1/5: Windows10.0-KB4486129-x64-NDP48.msu 2/5: windows10.0-kb4561600-x64_bdc2748cbbc1578453eee78cf08b07ce8d005abe.msu 3/5: Windows10.0-KB4565912-x64.msu 4/5: Windows10.0-KB4569746-x64-NDP48.msu 5/5: Windows10.0-KB4571694-x64.msu ============================================================ Extracting files from update cabinets (.cab) *** This will require some disk space, please be patient *** ============================================================ 1/5: Windows10.0-KB4486129-x64.cab [NetFx] 2/5: Windows10.0-KB4561600-x64.cab [Flash] 3/5: Windows10.0-KB4565912-x64.cab [SSU] 4/5: Windows10.0-KB4569746-x64-NDP48.cab [NetFx] 5/5: Windows10.0-KB4571694-x64.cab [LCU] ============================================================ Mounting sources\install.wim - index 1/1 ============================================================ Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.329 Mounting image [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. ============================================================ Checking Updates... ============================================================ ============================================================ Installing servicing stack update... ============================================================ Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.329 Image Version: 10.0.14393.0 Processing 1 of 1 - Adding package Package_for_KB4565912~31bf3856ad364e35~amd64~~14393.3801.1.1 [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. ============================================================ Installing updates... ============================================================ Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.329 Image Version: 10.0.14393.3801 Processing 1 of 3 - Adding package Package_for_KB4486129~31bf3856ad364e35~amd64~~10.0.1.3106 [==========================100.0%==========================] Processing 2 of 3 - Adding package Package_for_KB4561600~31bf3856ad364e35~amd64~~10.0.1.0 [==========================100.0%==========================] Processing 3 of 3 - Adding package Package_for_DotNetRollup~31bf3856ad364e35~amd64~~10.0.4210.3 [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.329 Image Version: 10.0.14393.3801 Processing 1 of 1 - Adding package Package_for_RollupFix~31bf3856ad364e35~amd64~~14393.3866.1.6 [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. ============================================================ Updating winre.wim ============================================================ Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.329 Mounting image [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.329 Image Version: 10.0.14393.0 Processing 1 of 1 - Adding package Package_for_KB4565912~31bf3856ad364e35~amd64~~14393.3801.1.1 [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.329 Image Version: 10.0.14393.3801 Processing 1 of 1 - Adding package Package_for_RollupFix~31bf3856ad364e35~amd64~~14393.3866.1.6 [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.329 Image Version: 10.0.14393.3801 [===========================99.4%========================= ] The operation completed successfully. Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.329 Image File : D:\share\Test_2016_LTSB\winre.wim Image Index : 1 Saving image [==========================100.0%==========================] Unmounting image [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.329 Exporting image [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. ============================================================ Adding updated winre.wim ============================================================ 1 file(s) copied. ============================================================ Unmounting sources\install.wim - index 1/1 ============================================================ Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.329 Image File : d:\share\Test_2016_LTSB\LTSB_N_x64\sources\install.wim Image Index : 1 Saving image [==========================100.0%==========================] Unmounting image [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. ============================================================ Rebuilding sources\install.wim ============================================================ Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.329 Exporting image [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. ============================================================ Mounting sources\boot.wim - index 1/2 ============================================================ Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.329 Mounting image [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. ============================================================ Checking Updates... ============================================================ ============================================================ Installing servicing stack update... ============================================================ Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.329 Image Version: 10.0.14393.0 Processing 1 of 1 - Adding package Package_for_KB4565912~31bf3856ad364e35~amd64~~14393.3801.1.1 [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. ============================================================ Installing updates... ============================================================ Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.329 Image Version: 10.0.14393.3801 Processing 1 of 1 - Adding package Package_for_RollupFix~31bf3856ad364e35~amd64~~14393.3866.1.6 [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. ============================================================ Resetting WinPE image base ============================================================ Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.329 Image Version: 10.0.14393.3801 [===========================99.3%========================= ] The operation completed successfully. ============================================================ Unmounting sources\boot.wim - index 1/2 ============================================================ Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.329 Image File : d:\share\Test_2016_LTSB\LTSB_N_x64\sources\boot.wim Image Index : 1 Saving image [==========================100.0%==========================] Unmounting image [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. ============================================================ Mounting sources\boot.wim - index 2/2 ============================================================ Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.329 Mounting image [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. ============================================================ Checking Updates... ============================================================ ============================================================ Installing servicing stack update... ============================================================ Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.329 Image Version: 10.0.14393.0 Processing 1 of 1 - Adding package Package_for_KB4565912~31bf3856ad364e35~amd64~~14393.3801.1.1 [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. ============================================================ Installing updates... ============================================================ Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.329 Image Version: 10.0.14393.3801 Processing 1 of 1 - Adding package Package_for_RollupFix~31bf3856ad364e35~amd64~~14393.3866.1.6 [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. ============================================================ Resetting WinPE image base ============================================================ Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.329 Image Version: 10.0.14393.3801 [===========================99.3%========================= ] The operation completed successfully. ============================================================ Unmounting sources\boot.wim - index 2/2 ============================================================ Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.329 Image File : d:\share\Test_2016_LTSB\LTSB_N_x64\sources\boot.wim Image Index : 2 Saving image [==========================100.0%==========================] Unmounting image [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. ============================================================ Rebuilding sources\boot.wim ============================================================ Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.329 Exporting image [==========================100.0%==========================] Exporting image [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. ============================================================ Removing temporary extracted files... ============================================================ ============================================================ Finished ============================================================ Press 9 to exit.
Alright, that's clear Code: ============================================================ Running W10UI v8.5 ============================================================ ============================================================ Extracting .cab files from .msu files ============================================================ 1/1: windows10.0-kb4571694-x64[CU].msu ============================================================ Extracting files from update cabinets (.cab) *** This will require some disk space, please be patient *** ============================================================ 1/1: Windows10.0-KB4571694-x64.cab [LCU] ============================================================ Mounting install.wim - index 1/1 ============================================================ Deployment Image Servicing and Management tool Version: 10.0.19041.1 Mounting image [==========================100.0%==========================] The operation completed successfully. ============================================================ Checking Updates... ============================================================ All applicable updates are detected as installed Testing the same from Windows 10 then. Cheers @Enthousiast.
I need to use Win10 host only if there are updates to integrate (as there is a nasty bug with the ADK on Win7 host), in any other case, it works perfectly.
Windows 7 is not a good host for servicing 10, ADK's won't help. Can you share the sha-1 of the clean source ISO you use?
Hi @abbodi1406 , @Enthousiast Thx... It's a genuine ISO The SHA1 = Code: en_windows_10_enterprise_2016_ltsb_n_x64_dvd_9057894.iso B5D4911BD53EC5029781ADE0937DAD43C4ED90F6 Weirdest build so far (on my end) ATM, serviced it online, and once again it failed with the LCU after 100% install... "We couldn't complete the updates. Undoing changes' loop" Then i let WU find the files, and let it update (really slow download,high memory use...) but finally it gave all required updates, and it finally worked out. Notice the 2018-05 LCU Code: 2018-05 Cumulative Update for Windows 10 Version 1607 for x64-based Systems (KB4103720) 2020-07 Servicing Stack Update for Windows 10 Version 1607 for x64-based Systems (KB4565912) Update for Windows 10 Version 1607 for x64-based Systems (KB4033631). Update for Windows 10 Version 1607 for x64-based Systems (KB4049411). 2020-01 Update for Windows 10 Version 1607 for x64-based Systems (KB4494175) 2020-06 Security Update for Adobe Flash Player for Windows 10 Version 1607 for x64-based Systems (KB4561600) 2020-08 Cumulative Update for Windows 10 Version 1607 for x64-based Systems (KB4571694) Posting result from new script in a min...
the recent LCUs for 1607 X64 are very big, haz367 (almost 1.6Gb in size) that's why the 1607 LCUs take so long to install unlike the LCUs for 1809, 190x & 20Hx which are much smaller