Bitcoin and Cryptocurrency Technologies

Discussion in 'Serious Discussion' started by Satoshi Nakamoto, Mar 1, 2016.

  1. Michaela Joy

    Michaela Joy MDL Crazy Lady

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  2. Joe C

    Joe C MDL Guru

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    Anything that's high-risk can also be high loss or high gain
    it's the nature of that beast, I've seen bit coin drop drastically and also gain drastically too
     
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  3. Joe C

    Joe C MDL Guru

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  4. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    There are similar basic rules and bankers are taking benefit from them. The banker itself buys and recommends the same to the customers......the rate starts to increase and soon people are speaking about a good investment....more and more get involved....

    The banker then sells with huge profit (the rate is still increasing) while the majority still buys until it crashes suddenly because of bad news and uncertainty and fear.

    I played with stocks in the late 90s NASDAQ New York and Frankfurt NEMAX.....

    All those so called chart analysts cannot live with the fact that no human is a fortune teller.
    All the fancy ways to analyse the charts are actually useless....

    But there are valid basic mechanisms...one of the most useful is the so called Kostolany egg
    https://chartanalyst.wordpress.com/tag/kostolany-egg/

    I ever was sure that the BTC rate will drastically increase. Preconditions were a secure wallet/client and less attacks.
    The date when the first bank officially got involved was a clear buying signal. The rate there was 100 bucks.
    Another fact that indicates increase of rate is that the amount of mined BTCs is limited and predetermined by maths.

    The only unknown was the time when BTCs exactly start to take off.....

    I do not speculate with money anymore....I have learned my lessons. It was fun, though.
     
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  5. SnoopDoggy

    SnoopDoggy MDL Novice

    Aug 1, 2018
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  6. Most people tell each other anecdotes, thinking that they’re telling stories.
    An anecdote is something that happens.
    [​IMG]
    This is a true anecdote - since 2008 the reason why ... :)



    btw: An interesting description of Katrina Kelly-Pitou
    https://theconversation.com/stop-worrying-about-how-much-energy-bitcoin-uses-97591
     
  7. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    #68 Yen, Aug 30, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2018
    The blockchain technology itself is a great development. It also could be established at 'common' banking.

    Well with ENUM one loses anonymity even more. It's originally used to translate phone numbers into IP addresses. (SIP gates)
    (NVS means name-value-storage)

    https://emercoin.com/en/documentation/blockchain-services/enumer

    The meta data stored in the current bitcoin blockchain are by far enough already. There are security concepts without to lose privacy.

    TBH The original Bitcoin is the only crypto currency that has got a meaning (so far)...any other coins are for collectors and coin lovers.

    Bitcoins are as safe as your online wallets are. (The server there).
    OR: They are as safe as you handle them at home at your own wallet (client)...

    Accumulation of potential money is like a honeypot. BTC addresses holding a lot of coins are as well.
    I prefer using an own wallet...connecting via local host to TOR....the blockchain does not need to store an IP address but local host / TOR exit node.
     
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  8. case-sensitive

    case-sensitive MDL Senior Member

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    Electronic money is the end of freedom .

    Its 100 % traceable because of the blockchain = all your transactions are not private ....... And at least in yurp all bank transactions / payments over 50 euros are recorded .

    Its private money . The cash each country uses belongs to the people liveing in that country . Electronic cash is owned by the companys that issue it . Wich are international .

    Should we put our futures in their hands ? Can we trust those companys ? Experience shows a definate NO . Those companys are only interested in themselves and their profit . WE are interested in US and our rights and future . They share information with governments and the cash can easily be stolen / dissapear ....... and if the company goes bankrupt you loose it .

    Its the same as buying shares in a company . That company can take the cash and dissaper with it ....... and you have to depend on it and its workers .

    At the moment its gold rush ...... greedy people , kackpitalists are makeing cash with speculation ...... but ...... that cash that they make will eventualy come from the small people that invest in and use electronic money .

    Remember the effects of the gold rush ? Very many people invested all their money and their lives in it and in the end the vast majority lost = Got ripped off ...... and a few greedy people ' won ' . Those people then used ' their ' = OUR money as a weapon to manipulate us = They only invest our money if we allow them to make extreme profits . That was a BIG part of of the causes of the great depression .

    Monopolys are obviosyly bad and they have a monopoly on money = OUR money .

    A difficult thing for the most people to understand but ...... you cant own money . Its not ownable . Its a medium of exchange . It represents a value = a measurable right and method of exchange for goods and services .

    Do we want to put that ? ....... our rights ? ...... our future ? ...... in the hands of greedy people that worship money ?

    We care about us . Kackpitalists only care about themselves = greed .


    >That 2.80 euro loaf of bread can motivate bakers to come up with more efficient processes for mass production,effectively driving the price down. And as more competitors emerge, the price of bread shrinks further.

    Let them eat cake !!! ...... Kackpitalist theorie . When did competition drive bread prices down ? Or any product ? Without the quality dropping ?

    If what you claim is true ......... why is there a standard price / pricerange for products that come from different firms ?

    Why are there no companys makeing afordable products of a decent quality ? For a lot of products prices are to high , profits are to high = A company could easily make a lot of them , with a decent quality and sell millions and make a profit ....... but that would sabotage kackpitalism .

    Hard fact . We are being farmed like cows in a field . The products we buy are often / mostly of a low quality ...... and that quality continualy drops ....... while prices rise .

    Remember Levis ? In the 60s they had a garantee ....... a life long garantee = If they ever got a hole in them one could take them back to the shop and get a replacement . I did it twice .

    Remember sensible cars ? Like the ones that are still being driven around in Cuba ? Made from real steel and quality products . Lasts a life time and more .

    Nowadays we have cars made of tin foil that fall apart after a few years ...... just like very many products because they have a planned obsolescence ...... = they are deliberately made with subferior materials .

    A simple fact = If the kackpitalists sold us quality products kackpitalism would end because when a person has a quality product they dont need to keep buying new ones . At the moment the reality of the situation is that we dont buy cars we rent them = We pay a price , they fall apart and we pay the price again and again every few years . Each time the quality drops and / or the prices rise . They are squeezing us . Useing our money to manipulate us .

    We are not free people anymore we are a resource that the kackpitalists and their political hench / front men = polytrickers abuse for their profit .

    Good examples of the effects of kackpiutalism ...... The land of the free ...... where every time it rains or is windy the slaves houses and caravans get blown away en mass because they are made of subferior = CHEEP materials .

    The continual murders in amiland have nothing to do with weapons . Its because a large part of the citizens of the land of the free ' live ' in poverty ...... in wooden huts and caravans ....... and the abismaly low educational standards for poor people ......... and the massive problem in the US with mental health issues ....... all because the rich wont pay their share . Poor people are just ignored by the rich / politicians and are left to look after themselves = vegitate .

    The Russians said ....... ' The kackpitalist will sell us the rope with wich we hang them ' ....... and thats just what they are doing .

    They stole the planet , made us slaves , raped it and us and are now buisily trying to sell it back to us .

    The climate kacktastrophy is directly caused and cultivated by the political cast and their kackpitalist bosses . The world new about it and the consequences since at the latest the start of the 70s . We told the polytrickers .......... but the ignored it and us and kept makeing profit out of it . For instance by selling rights to polute the earth / atmosphere / us with CO2 .

    We are ' On the eve of destruction ' because ' They paved paradise and put up a parking lot ' .


    Politicians and their kackpitalist bosses are planet murderers . They have sentanced millions ? Billions ? to death . Do we want to help them with that by useing electronic cash ?
     
  9. Joe C

    Joe C MDL Guru

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    #71 Joe C, Sep 3, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2018
    I think your confusing kackpitalism with just plain 'ol human greed. We in the U.S. had kackpitalism even back in the 60's and 70's before we got everything from China or some other godforsaken place. "Made in America" really means made in Guatemala.
    Bit Coin is a risk investment that can have high gains or high losses.
     
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  10. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    #72 Yen, Sep 3, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2018
    Yeah, well.....
    This hack is academical, though. A POC that it can be hacked but without practical meaning.

    You need physical access to the phone.
    The phone must be rooted.
    There must have been a process of decryption on the phone right before.

    Cold boot attack is nothing new. A cold boot attack is based on data remanence. That means to shut down the phone and to boot it up after a while kills all data anyway.
    A good app/client should hold decrypted stuff only a certain time and overwrite the addresses after.

    Also when OPENING the wallet it does not need to decrypt its private keys nor to keep the PW in RAM if it'd use asymmetric encryption (ECIES).
    If you are paranoid then just shut down your device after you have transferred the BTCs.

    (BTW: Since Android isn't that secure I avoid money related transactions there generally)

    You posts starts with a hypothesis which becomes never reasoned at your post. "Electronic money is the end of freedom "

    Then there is a statement about the blockchain which lets me doubt that you know what you are actually talking about. (Where is the association of a BTC address to a private person?!?)

    The rest of your post just hurts. There is no proper arguing related to electronic money and it has nothing to do with crypto currency at all. :)

    Addition: I do not say that you do not address valid concerns and negative aspects of monopoly and capitalism and greed...but it's nothing to do with BTC. It actually gains back freedom for electronic money...
     
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  11. Michaela Joy

    Michaela Joy MDL Crazy Lady

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    @Yen: This part of his statement is highly charged with emotion, but in a sense it's true.

    Organized crime has always hoarded cash, gems and precious metals, so that Law Enforcement couldn't seize their assets.
    In that sense (and that sense only) is that statement true.

    When that freedom is taken away, any person with a substantial amount of cash will be forced to "legitimize" the cash by putting into a bank,
    so that taxes can be paid. This includes investing in things like bitcoin technology.

    The stock markets serve that very purpose, with the exception that the transactions are regulated and can be tracked,
    so that fees and taxes can be properly levied.

    If it's not associated to an individual, then it can't be taxed. At least not easily. They can only see the money leaving whatever financial institution was previously holding it.

    With that said, I can see how financial institutions would do everything in their power to discourage bitcoin.

    And leverage their own countries' internet laws so that they will be able to collect taxes on this money.

    In the USA, it was getting rid of net neutrality.

    Just some morning thoughts over coffee.

    I hope I haven't gone off-topic. :)

    P.S. @Yen: For the sake of clarity, I abridged a part of your statement. I hope you don't mind.
     
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  12. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    case-sensitive has let out his frustration about capitalism, greed and monopoly and mixes up many things and has put them into one pot. It's hard to find a thread at the argumentation.
    He associated electronic money to the blockchain. And BTC is a cryptographic currency.

    Not to pay taxes cannot mean a sort of freedom. Anybody has to pay taxes as a social and fair contribution.
    If the taxes themselves are fair or not is another question. It's national politics.

    Taxes have to be taken away where they arise. For instance when I get salary the company has to take them away and I do not see them ever on my bank account.

    But then there should be an opportunity to transfer/pay with "Tax-paid-money" just as anonym as one can with paying cash.

    And BTCs / blockchain regain that freedom. IMHO....

    Electronic money is not the problem. It's privacy issues and 'who' has access to what...
     
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  13. Michaela Joy

    Michaela Joy MDL Crazy Lady

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    I agree. :)

    I'm not talking about the average man. If you don't pay taxes, it's against the law, and you'll have your pay garnished and your property taken away.

    I'm speaking about the corporations. And they use techniques called "Tax Avoidance", which are designed to insulate the corporation from taxes and maximize tax writeoffs.
    Each country has its' own version of tax laws, but the concept of Tax Avoidance is global by nature.

    Privacy and access are not the only issues. Another issue is transaction protection and providing a recourse for fraud.
    In the USA, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation guarantees monies in any account up to $100,000 (One Hundred Thousand dollars, spelled out for the benefit of those who use commas as decimal points)


    I disagree with you. If everything goes electronic, then there can be no more cash work.

    In the USA, if you do 30 ATM withdrawals in a month, on average you can pay up to $50.00 / month to use your own money.

    Of course that depends on your bank and your card. I get the first transaction for free. After that, it depends on which ATM I use.
    (HINT: If you're visiting the USA and you need to use an ATM, find a McDonalds restaraunt. The fee is $1.20 per transaction. ;) )

    If bitcoin is attempting to become another form of currency, it needs a lot of work.
     
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  14. Joe C

    Joe C MDL Guru

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    #76 Joe C, Sep 4, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2018
    MJ, we do not use cash much today where everybody takes debit cards, A multiple of on line store web sites take bitcoin as currency too. I think I get by with only $20. or so in my pants pocket because everything else is cashless, it's where our society has gone here in the U.S. The cash is for waitress tips and such. I think our govt takes too much of my hard earned cash as it is, so I will give a tax break to anybody I can.
    https://promotions.newegg.com/nepro/16-6277/index.html
     
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  15. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    #77 Yen, Sep 5, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2018
    Actually nobody likes to pay taxes. And there are two ways. A way which is against the corresponding (national) law...or a way which does not violate current laws.
    I agree. If companies such as Apple and Google would pay fairly their taxes own private taxes (citizens) could be lowered.
    It's sick that capitalists such as these 2 do not fulfill their social obligation. 0.06% out of 32 Billion is a joke. Apple gets taxed in Ireland and not US (AOI)
    Loophole tax from intellectual property.....

    In the EU it's the same. It's covered with 100,000 Euros respectively.

    Actually electronic cash and ATM should replace man power which is actually more expensive. An ATM is a machine. And people complained about ATMs being responsible that simple bank employees would lose their jobs.

    WoW....my bank does not charge anything for an ATM transaction. It depends if the owner of the ATM charges, though. Within the EU there are enough ATMs I can use for free.

    In Asia they usually charge depending on bank and country. The amount is the same, regardless how much cash I take...
    It's limited (foreign country) 1000 Euros per day...(corresponding amount)
    When I pay with it (It's a Visa) I also do not pay extra for foreign purchases...or I get back those 1.75% next month.

    What I do encounter though is....if I try to pay with Visa they say it's extra charge of up to 3%..so sometimes it's better to use the ATM, get some local bucks and pay with those...
    Depends on bank / country and ex-change rates of course....

    Until 2016 I've got back any foreign transaction fee from my bank. But those times are over....I am glad that they themselves have no extra charge /fee...

    Yea..bitcoin is still a sort of experiment...but exciting.....AFAIK there are BTC ATMs already in Japan and Japan is a country who's most fancy on crypto coins...

    The legal status is not the same for each country....
     
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  16. Michaela Joy

    Michaela Joy MDL Crazy Lady

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    @Yen: I agree. It is exciting and it has the potential to replace the stock market(s) with regards to small ventures.
    And if the money risked is small, then the hit from an investment going sour is minimal.

    I'm sure you've heard the term "loansharking". The legal term is usury. In the USA, each state has a limit on the amount of interest that
    can be charged for a loan. That's why credit card institutions are typically located in south dakota and other states where the usury limits are higher or do not even exist.

    Read here:
    https://wallethub.com/edu/usury-laws/25568/

    We have so many damaged laws in the USA that make it all but impossible for the average user to be protected.
    And once BTC comes of age, the same thing may happen with it.

    @Joe C: In NYC, cash is needed, because of two reasons:

    1 ) Many new restaraunts and many stores here do not accept credit / debit cards. However, they do have ATMs on site.
    Your statement about tips is right, and giving a cash tip is a nice thing to do.

    Not everybody thinks of other people though.

    2 ) There are still places that set minimums on what you can buy. (e.g. $10.00 minimum on debit / credit card purchases)
    Of course that means the you have to buy $9.00 worth of junk to get that $1.00 pack of gum. (or whatever)
     
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  17. Joe C

    Joe C MDL Guru

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    I guess that is what it is in the Big Apple.
    Out here in the near mid-west little towns it not like that. There's not much that you can't buy with a debit card.... even McDonalds accepts cards
     
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    Blockchain becomes the operating system of the economy: Commerzbank CEO was convinced of this at the recent summit. And he's not alone in that opinion: Edward Budd believes that over the next five to ten years, 20 percent of global economic output will be channeled through the blockchain.

    SN