Can I create a new Disk Partition while the OS remains operational?

Discussion in 'Windows 10' started by Katzenfreund, Jul 26, 2016.

  1. Katzenfreund

    Katzenfreund MDL Expert

    Jul 15, 2016
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    @ John Sutherland
    I had already done what you say. In fact, I had set the figure to 10%, that's why I had said
    "(with max set to almost 20 GB)"

    I even turned protection off and on again, to no avail.

    The trouble is, I don't have a restore point to repair the restore function.
     
  2. BobSheep

    BobSheep MDL Guru

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    #42 BobSheep, Aug 15, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2016
    But only contiguous space. Not the same as any other file at all.
     
  3. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    Maybe other 'unmovable' systemfiles..what about hibernation?
    Pagefile, hiberfil.sys file and restore points to be removed.....

    You can also check the win event log to get more info or try defrag to analyze partition and have a look what is still unmovable.

    Nevermind. Just saw it's been the restore points
     
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  4. Katzenfreund

    Katzenfreund MDL Expert

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    Thanks for this, it’s of more value to me than you probably think, as I’m worried about the whole matter.

    The trouble is that I don’t remember how big the restore points were before I started the whole adventure. But I’m sure those of XP were much bigger.

    Could someone tell me how big their restore points are?

    A further problem is that the size of restore points (Current use) keeps increasing as I check again after a while, especially after restarting, and this surely can’t be right. I have since deleted the new partition and merged it to C: but the situation with restore points continues.

    Fortunately, I had made an Acronis image of my entire system before starting the whole adventure, but it would be the first time I’d do such restoration on my new system and I’m afraid I might lose it entirely.

    Last but not least, everything seems to be working normally, disk and system file checks find nothing wrong, thus making the use of Acronis restore a more difficult decision.
     
  5. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    I actually do not get why you are worried....
    After you had shrunken it successfully I'd have made a system check, then deleted all previous restore points and created ONE new one.
    Why worried about old restore points made from a different system partition size? You actually need ONE restore point created from a working condition.


    I am not a big fan of shrinking sys partitions, though. I rather make an image of the partition, then re-partition and playback of the image
     
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  6. T-S

    T-S MDL Guru

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    If the partition can be shrieked the process is almost instant and harmless.

    Given it's limitation about the locked files when it allow a partition to shrink just few infos about the partition size and boundary must be upgraded, there isn't any actual data moving. Hence even a power loss during the operation shouldn't lead to a catastrophic situation.
     
  7. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    I am not worried about a probable ‘catastrophic’ situation. The risk is like doing defrag since I am sure to apply the new boundary fragmented clusters have to be moved…

    It seems OP talks about an ‘important’ installation.
    Common sense is IMHO to make a backup image from time to time.

    Also I’d not rely on restore points I actually do not use such. They are mostly useless since they do not ‘eliminate’ issues they restore some previous conditions that’s all.

    Having a backup image handy either way it is the better option. (for me)
     
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  8. T-S

    T-S MDL Guru

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    Sure. But that's a good measure no matter if you resize or not.

    What I'm saying is that in my experience, when possible, the shrink done trough the disk manager is practically bullet proof, very different than an offline one using paragon or acronis. They don't have limitations, but a sudden reset or power loss during the operation can destroy completely your OS.
     
  9. Katzenfreund

    Katzenfreund MDL Expert

    Jul 15, 2016
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    Thanks for taking interest in my case boss.

    I clarify that I’m not worried about old restore points, but about new ones. These have an apparently too small size, starting at something like 5MB, which moreover does not remain constant but keeps increasing every time I check, to reach 100MB and more. Thus I’m worried my SRPs won’t work if I come to need them.

    As for shrinking the system partition, I do it to make possible the creation of an image of it. Acronis creates image of entire partition. So if I don’t shrink it, my data will be included in the image and it will be impractically large.
     
  10. Katzenfreund

    Katzenfreund MDL Expert

    Jul 15, 2016
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    I have a theoretical question on this, which is due to my lack of practical experience with the procedure described.

    If you repartition offline without the system, how do you know how much you can reduce the system partition size without disturbing the locked files? If you reduce it beyond the point allowed by the system, then it seems to me, when you play back the image it may not fit.

    Example: Let’s say the system has locked files that only allow reduction to 400GB, but not knowing this, you reduce the size to 300GB. Then, when playing back the image, it would be like trying to put 1 liter of water in a ¾ liter bottle.

    Does my query make sense?
     
  11. T-S

    T-S MDL Guru

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    Simply you configure any partition shrink, shift, resize copy while you're online (or using the bootable media), then the partitioning program will do what you asked, when offline.

    While you're online, obviously, you aren't allowed to shrink a partition beyond the available space, even if the changes aren't yet committed.

    Seem pretty straight forward to me.

    It's just like trying to add 1GB of files to a 700MB CDROM, the actual changes will happen later, but you aren't allowed to do so, even in theory
     
  12. Katzenfreund

    Katzenfreund MDL Expert

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    ˄˄˄
    I don’t understand your answer T-S.

    In my example, who’s going to shift the locked files to allow reduction of size from 400GB (held by locked files) to 300GB?
     
  13. T-S

    T-S MDL Guru

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    I don't understand what you don't understand.:D

    The locked files are locked by the running system, when you are offline the problem is not there. They are just files to phisically move, like any other files.
     
  14. Katzenfreund

    Katzenfreund MDL Expert

    Jul 15, 2016
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    ˄˄˄
    I’m beginning to see…I think…. So are you saying that the imaging software “collapses” the system to its minimum contiguous size without leaving gaps?

    A question remains: Why does the system lock the files? Especially, why does it lock them in the middle of the disk? If it locks them there for a reason, it may not be a good idea to move them.
     
  15. T-S

    T-S MDL Guru

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    Performance reasons mainly. A not fragmented swapfile or hibernation file or whatever of frequently accessed works obviously better than a fragmented one.

    Would you rebuild a bridge while your car is parked in the middle of it? :g:

    Recently a lot of technologies were introduced to overcome those problems, but the offline path is still the most obvious and safe way to do that.

    Look, Partition magic was released in the days of the Win 95 release, and since then the partition programs have been used constantly, and have been improved constantly.

    A sudden reset/power loss during the process is the only problem you may face using them, that's all.


    Anyway why not test them in first person instead of trying to guess about non existent problems?
     
  16. Katzenfreund

    Katzenfreund MDL Expert

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    Thanks for the clarifications. I now am, and hope others also are, much wiser about the subject than when I started it.

    Because if those non-existent problems suddenly materialize, as they often do in the first person's experience, it's the first person's system that will be broken. And then the first person will be kicking himself why he didn't try to anticipate them. ;)
     
  17. T-S

    T-S MDL Guru

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    Hardly you can learn to ride a bicycle or a skateboard w/o hurting yourself.

    No matter the theory you can learn the real world may be different in a personal corner case.

    Playing with partitioning SW is still a delicate operation, no matter how good and careful the partitioning SW is. The only way to stay 100% safe, as always, is called backup.

    And no the problem is not the data moving per se, but say a bunch of broken clusters, that decide to materialize during the repartiotioning phase, may be way more problematic than the same problem during a normal operation, the same is true for a power loss, a sudden reset and everything Murphy's law may provide.
     
  18. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    First some basics, it is actually very easy.

    What means locked?
    Locked means the file consists of a fixed continuous row of allocated clusters of the partition (usually NTFS).

    Anyway such files have a file size.

    When backing up a partition we have an exact amount of occupied space. This info is available at the backup. The new partition must not come below this size.

    Furthermore I think the pagefile and the hiberfil.sys are not backuped, since they are created newly when booting the restored system. They contain no needed info when backuped.

    What means an image?
    Actually a raw image of the same partition has always the same size, regardless of how much space is occupied.
    A raw image would restore the partition exactly as it had been (cluster wise).

    Backup images of Acronis or the like are no static images. They also contain the needed info for sys restoring.
    If you would try to restore a backup on a partition which is too small it would complain.

    To me there are 3 scenarios.

    -Expand the sys partition due to short-running of space
    -Copy sys partition from HDD to a new SSD
    -Create more partitions instead of having one large syspartition only

    Either way I’d always go for the backup/restore way. (Or complete clean install)

    Acronis is intelligent enough to gather all info needed when backuping. It recognizes different partition sizes and offers different options, even own partitioning.

    Finally the subject: reliability / worries

    How would you know the backup is working again?
    By restoring it! Thoughts about are useless.
    The same applies to any clean installation.
    The only thing one should avoid is to lose irretrievable data. A screwed sys installation is actually no problem, but efforts.
     
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