Thank you. Your EGO won again. Good job! Really? ROFL! ROFL! ROFL! You're right on this one. Hmmm...has your EGO left you express yourself on this one? It's your right to believe what you believe my friend, I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. Maybe your wife is more wise than you know. Listen to her from time to time and put your science away. Regarding Tesla, it's clear that you're so limited in your vision. Now, one can see your own imposed limits... @jayblok: what's that? A flag of some football or hockey team?
You are completely right. You have got it! The mind cannot have a state without thoughts, because it would be just another thought. The state without thoughts is the death of the ego-mind. Right. But we are not the ego and not the mind. To most this state is absurd or sick or impossible. One withdraws food / fuel from the mind and the mind opposes. It opposes by declaring what I say to be absurd. I thought the same when I was younger and right after study my ego had become fat, I never would have been able to kill the ego-mind that time.... And I have no issue to do my daily job, most think I have now an issue with 'my mind'. I teach everyday atm, and nobody ever had an issue we have fun together. The importance of science has moved that's all. This tiny movement of what I had spoken already (to be the observer) changes the entire intensity of life. It becomes more real, more vivid, happier....yes it is the opposite! I have a mind but I am neither the mind nor controlled by it. I can explore using the mind, but my home is mySelf. R29k, try this little experiment: say to yourself and close your eyes. I am now totally aware of myself and wait for my next thought that comes into my mind, concentrate yourself to be the observer waiting for the next thought, like a cat waiting in front of a mouse-hole....what happens? It takes a longer time until you recognize the next thought and by being the observer you have dis-identified yourself from the mind...you have turned your awareness to the present. That's all, no magic, no sick behavior.....when now ever remaining this presence then one lives there where one can at all and no thoughts come into the mind again....one acts conform to one's Self without to have a filter called the mind. To ever live there one needs to make the effort, so I do....to be aware that the focus needs to be moved to the observer, to the present. I don't have a distorted view of life, what I try to explain is nothing abnormal nothing magic.....it is the most normal thing to live one's Self.....paradox: You think my way to perceive is kinda sick, but when doing it the first time one gets that it is the only real way to see the things, to see them as they are...and now to me the 'other' way is the sickness......the mind will ever say its way is the normal way and others are sick.... Curiosity is the only power that is able to find an own answer......to this paradox. The mind never can, because the mind has the reasons for it. 'I have lost my mind' When one says that he's usually declared to be nuts....
Until now I kept myself out of this thread, just reading... interesting discussion Just a few cents of mine: Has a philosopher that ever just quotes from books and applies patterns he lernt in lectures really ever lernt oder understood anything? Let me compare it with two guys sitting in front of a broken TV: one has got a manual where the error isn't described so he says It can't be fixed because the manual hasn't got any solution! - the other one just tries to fix it and is able to do it. One should be careful saying he has got the only truth and everybody else stating otherwise is wrong. The more I'm sure I got absolute insight the more away I actually am from insight, I'd say. Concering discussions, there is a saying: if two philosophers meet, the only thing they should say to each other is Hello!
Nope. Flaws are ever flaws of one's mind. But you love her. This love is beyond mind. It is that what you are and that is not different to 'her'. And to 'us'..this bond is expressed and felt as love. It is the feeling of Iamness and unity. You are her and she is you. The only thing that is different is her function of an individual as your wife. (And her physical appearance that had attract you). Her inner beauty is her Self and that is not different to your Self. (That's the way 'I' feel love...)..and you? May I ask you: Have you married her in a church? He said: god is dead. And he has found his relative truth. Coffee tastes good. Same value. If 'god' has a meaning that one cannot accept or has issues with it then one should not use the word 'god'. That what 'god' is is actually without name. You cannot deny your Self and hence not god. Iam that I am is a far better expression for 'god' IMO.
@ancestor(v): Indeed when two philosophers meet the only thing they say to each other is "Hello", because they know that THE SELF cannot be discussed. Words only point at it, but words cannot describe the indescribable. A nice inspirational movie made by dr.Wayne Dyer that clarifies a lot of things: Wayne Dyer - Ambition to Meaning - The Shift.
I see... OKI... How many admins does it take to change a light bulb? Or: how many IT guys does it take to get a semi-decent sentence together? Or: how many scientists does it take to figure out how to start a fire with two pieces of wooden sticks? (Jeez, this bashing is seriously embarrassing stuff...)
Seriously, this is now getting out of hand in terms of an anti-intellectual charge (I don't care if it's Philosophy or Science that get bashed in such a manner) and therefore I am outta here... Nothing to be learnt or gained when it's at this level and getting ever lower, where one dares the other "How far can you go in dissing something you know nothing about"... Rrrrrrealllyyyy embarrassing, if one thinks about it even a teeny-weeny bit only... I mean, it's kinda embarrassing to me to read what some of you guys are writing and it has nothing to do with me... so... Byeeee....
Oyyy. Everybody is free to leave, I respect your decision. But I reply when I want anyway, because I have been addressed. Keyword embarrassing. Your last 2 posts...'you know nothing about': conceited Have a nice weekend, bye.
Conceited? You actually - at your finest - "confessed", so a fact, nothing more... Enjoy your weekends away from Philosophy... It's heavy....
okay. i am off topic.. but really folks, here in serious discussion sometimes you see members getting carried away by a subject that is dear to them.. [ i could mention the global warming thread, or i could mention this cogito ergo sum thread, but i won`t.] i appreciate ancestor`s attitude.. listen before you talk, that`s right.. but, trying to get on topic, i feel gorski offered a genuine contribution, and undisputable expertise.. we could do better than just shrug that off, i think.. when i see people asking here what is the good to society of philosophers, my dear yen, then that kind of hurts.. as i said earlier, some valuable notions did not fall from the high heavens, like the notion that all men are born equal, or the inconvenient invention of democracy.. and i happen to think that we have philosophy to thank for that. so a little respect for gorski`s efforts is not out of place here, imho..
Just wanted to say something. When a person watches TV,closes his eyes to rest for a few minutes,walks around the garden...we always have negative thoughts whether we want it or not,we think about our past,problems that we have now in our life,what will happen in the future and so on...that happens unconsciously.<--- hard word to spell but managed to write it correctly Now when we think positive about our past,what we liked,our future what we would like to have,that is conscious thinking,and on that we have to concentrate or here music... As i mentioned earlier in one of the threads negative thinking leads to more negativity in our life and only brings stress,problems and more of the stuff we do not seek to have. On the other hand positivity lets us go through our day without stress,problems,worries...and for that we have to practice being grateful for everything we have and start being positive even if it may sound hard or imaginable in our present situation. That means this: Every day a person should close his eyes for 15-30 minutes and just try to get all thoughts out of his head,at first it may seem impossible,there are going to be all kinds of negative thoughts or feelings going through our mind,but just erase every thought immediately out of your head,that´s the first step. Now when one has mastered that,concentrate on what you would like to have in future and make a mental picture of that thing,maybe a brand new car,girlfriend,new friends,better life with wife...and think of it as you already posses it and try to feel it,and you´ll see what will happen.
one last post from the skeptic. I'm sorry to say that I think the problem is endemic to the concept of philosophy since so many people seem to regard philosophizing as a form of spinning yarns rather than thinking critically/carefully. No offense.
The word "philosophy" comes from the Greek φιλοσοφία (philosophia), which literally means "love of wisdom". Wisdom is not only rational. Wisdom is thought from the heart. Thoughts of the mind gives one grief, remorse, un-fulfillment. Thoughts of the heart gives one peace, joy, happiness. @sid_16, gorski, R29k: I am not against you. Not at all. I just wanted to share my experience with you, that's all. I'm really sorry it doesn't fit your criteria, but this doesn't make it less real for me.
Ever heard of sociopaths, torturers, rapists, thugs, muggers, paedophiles, incestuous poor sods, (mass) murderers, genocidal maniacs and the like? What do you think their "hearts think"? Or the thoughts of a hot speculative capital "investor's" or bond dealer's heart? What do they "feel"? Or cheating athlete's heart? Or unscrupulous businessman's heart? Can you get the point? Or do I have to go to various "cult leader's" hearts, maybe even "religious and very pious" people's hearts? So, you see, you have a serious problem in your "thinking"... On the other hand, if you knew Philosophy you wouldn't have... Oh, never mind... I said I am outta here... Can you stop addressing me, please? Thanx.
Can't refrain myself from posting this 'cos I'm addressed again. I've never heard people say thinking occurs in heart.! If you relate thinking to heart then feeling must be related to kidney or some other part of the body? As said earlier you people philosophizing a lot on every subject without knowing what it really is or understanding the subject but for you philosophizing as a form of spinning yarns rather than thinking critically/carefully about a specific subject. that's all, no more posting here. thanks, sid_16. <EDIT> Socrate do you really read the links people provide here or in other thread? If you really want to learn what philosophy is then go to this link What is philosophy and gain some knowledge on the subject then come back and start the discussion, till then goodbye.
It's not off topic, I thank you for this post, because it says how one reflects that thread who is not very much involved and I appreciate your contributions, nodnar. "Oh, never mind... I said I am outta here... Can you stop addressing me, please? Thanx." gorski, you cannot dump your last two embarrassing posts here addressing me and others and to ask that nobody should reply. Read it, or don't. Reply or leave it.... Well first I have to say this thread is at the chit chat section of MDL so we tolerate that the topic can be discussed more global. And I had precisely asked: What today's Philosopher are doing in our society where do they act at which places? And that is a neutral, call it naive, question. I have not asked what our Philosophers did in history and even if I had it wouldn't concern gorski's efforts to be respected. I have got no answer, but gorski felt attacked. It is a good question IMHO. Most time it is referred to Philosopher who have already died. I mean we have politics, banks, economy, government, journalism, media, science, industry. So where exactly and how do Philosopher act with their work and creativity? What is wrong with that question? I know ex politicians who have studied Philosophy and book authors like Richard David Precht. Respect. I know what a study is and I know what it means. Everybody should have noticed that I have a strong kind of self-irony. And I have said that I do not need to be respected that I have studied. I respect myself. And I have learned that Descartes was revolutionary at the time when he's lived. Anyway I have my opinion about the topic and I had to experience how gorski replied. My opinion about Descartes had been declared to be wrong, even though there are also Philosophers who have the same opinion. I wanted to have respected that both opinions have the same relative truth. My life experience and the way I am let me say Descartes is wrong. Nothing more. The way gorski had reacted is IMO very inappropriate especially when being a Philosopher. Nobody ever here had stated to be studied in Philosophy. So to argue that there is lack in knowledge is no argument to deny a opinion about the topic. nodnar, tell me please how do you think about gorskis statement: "I will surmise that you actually understand neither Science nor Humanity, never mind Philosophy.." I would be upset like gorski if I wouldn't know what science really is, instead of I replied neurally. Because I am able to show self-irony and I have already a huge gap between study I can reflect what I have studied the way I did. So when talking about disrespect it is the same amount I 'disrespect' my own study. So no personal disrespect to gorski personally, he simply could not handle it without to be personally affected. I have studied and then gathered experiences in life which moved the importance of science in my life. My experiences are of the same meaning and because they were responsible that I decreased the importance of studied matters then it affects my opinion about study generally as well. To post terms such as Indian 'approach', German attributes are not really helpful for a neutral discussion. To refer to ancestors funny post, I am the one who just repairs the TV. The proof that it worked is my change of life which went to a far more real and vivid life because of what I have experienced during my life and travels. I wanted to share this and say that one cannot study it, it has to be tried, practically. Unfortunately it goes beyond mind and there is no real way to communicate it, so I have struggled with it. When I say we can only life at present and past and future are not really accessible, that thoughts are past and that creativity comes from one's Self and not from the thoughts of the mind, then I have experienced that and it's not simply a statement to bash on Philosophy or even science. It is my relative truth, but experienced truth. I had encountered such issues at study already. Studied knowledge versus practical experiences. Believe me I hadn't been thrown out of the classroom only one time because I dared to disagree with a docs. reading... Many scientists are on such a high level of theoretical knowledge that they have lost the sight to practical matters. They simply cannot be aware presently when applying science. "I have told you that way and it has to be that way! I am professor or doctor or something.." This is IMHO no science. The motivation to act like that is fear. And fear is always an attribute of the ego. And a sign that the one is actually not really living it and convinced of what he's saying....otherwise the one would stay calm. This criterion I used to separate the 'real' scientists from the others. I had not been a pleasant student. I had been always in focus: For disrespecting some docs and on the other hand for my extraordinary ideas to improve and creativity. I lived organic synthesis. It had been my dream job since I was 12 years old. Some of the scientists where I am working have a problem to classify the way I am. They see the talent, the work, but then have to notice that I am different to them. I argue against conservative and static structures. I laugh a lot I have self-irony, I cannot follow fixed procedures, I need room. And I am grateful that I can work at research and not at applied or analytic Chemistry. They gave me the trust to train, educate, teach other people. I lead my lab when I teach. I do not only teach theory. It's a vivid and interesting program I have to offer and room for fun. I live science when I teach, even though it's sometimes boring to teach all the stuff again and again. So I bring fun into it. And I take benefit of what I have experienced, of what I have posted here. Most of it is unconventional and hard to get for others. (Such like the state of no-mind). I think therefore I am equals thinking with existence. This does not match my experience and if it shouldn't equal it then I get it 'wrong' but I cannot change the fact that I get it that way. I think means as long as I think. But I experience that thoughts are past and to think is actually no event in time. I have tried to illustrate why, with my own words. And when now somebody says this is not conform to western Philosophy then I simply don't care. And I say: To me it is right the way I posted, why else I have posted it that way. Arguments against it (references of western Philosophy) are not 'truer', it are relative truths. When I get replies such as: BS! It is that way..blah,blah, then I have to ask me what's the intention? The way I go to get wisdom regarding myself is exerted by millions of people. gorski tries to determinate the amount of truth at the amount of study / effort. He generally disqualifies statements from people who have 'no clue in philosophical thinking'. I determine the amount of truth at the amount of suffering and happiness in my life. I have my opinion and I can say western Philosophy today has nothing to offer what could be valuable and useful in my life. It is far too academic and theoretical and is not practically usable. It's just like to most of us like Chemistry. To most of us it is unimportant in their life, theoretic, special. But that does not mean that there are talents for Philosophy and Chemistry. Each person should realize what one means in life is one's profession. But everybody should be allowed to say what he thinks about the own value of it. Studied or not. And when gorski means I am not one of those to be allowed to be a part of 'Philosophy' then I don't care. I have love to wisdom, that what it literally means. Love to wisdom means to me to live my Self. gorski's two latest posts actually confirmed my assessment of one who purely defends theory. An I have to say these posts are far off of everything. I hope I am allowed to speak open. My personal feeling to you gorski never has changed. I am not angry or something. I am with you. No hard feelings no offense, I hope you feel the same. This topic is actually nothing compared to virtual friendship and should never affect it. And (sorry for the long post again, lol) I want to end here with a personal opinion @ gorski IMHO you are too much involved in your (selected) theories and you have a too fixed and static opinion. You take away your own room you would need to unfold your various knowledge. You are too dogged and you have a too high opinion of what you have studied. Study is only a little thing in your life and it is a mind thing. It must be something at your ego that only uses a part of that what you actually have studied, but that part you defend massively.....it is also typical for scientists to have a narrow way to reflect aspects, but a very very high skill at a special subject. This is not satisfying in life, I have experienced that...it's just a hint of a friend.
Yen, you started with "psychologising" (personalising) my answers etc. So, no offence but fairness dictates I have the last such word, in response to that. And I warned you it doesn't work, this type of "debate" but you continued... So, no use of crying over spilt milk now... You started, I finish. Can we agree to that?
I can answer that very easy, my friend: they have a HUGE EGO and don't have a "heart". It's the EGO that drives them... Theory values ZERO without practice. 1 gram of practice surpasses 1 tonne of theory, always. @sid_16: I'm really sorry for you, my friend...