Coronavirus | Discussion

Discussion in 'Serious Discussion' started by Deleted member 1254778, Feb 28, 2020.

  1. case-sensitive

    case-sensitive MDL Expert

    Nov 7, 2013
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    >https://www.fda.gov/media/146217/download and https://www.fda.gov/news-events/pre...ency-use-authorization-third-covid-19-vaccine

    They did not aprove it . They issued an emrgency allowance ......... a political move ....... based on claims and hopes . That means that the normal aproval procedure has been delayed because it is deemed that the problem is suficient enough to justify delaying it .

    Bit like saying ...... we have a trafic emergency and because of that we are allowing people that havent had a driving test to drive cars ....... and hope and pray that they dont crash .
     
  2. Mr.X

    Mr.X MDL Guru

    Jul 14, 2013
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    Wrong. To be sufficient is to be enough, so what you are suggesting is pleonastic ffs.
    :tooth:
    Life's hard. Sometimes desperate circumstances require desperate measures. Get used to it.
     
  3. case-sensitive

    case-sensitive MDL Expert

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    @ ' Clever ' people shooting themselves in the foot :)

    Ex ....... first you shout that normaly a vacine takes two to ten years to develop ....... and that the vacines available havent been properly tested ...... and thats why the vacines are crap .

    Now that procedure has been shortened even further ....... i say it ....... and now you contradict yourself and your position with ---- > ' Life's hard. Sometimes desperate circumstances require desperate measures. Get used to it. '


    yen . Just because you wear a white coat at work doesnt mean that your always right ....... and trying to use that fact as a proof in a discussion is brain dead . Same when gorski ' thinks ' that hes right about things just because he went to university .

    I didnt go to university ....... because i dont need anyones aproval or to be spoon fed and i wont lick arse for a piece of paper .

    The report i said was crap has NOTHING to do with covid . Thats why its CRAP in a discussion about covid .
     
  4. Mr.X

    Mr.X MDL Guru

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    Nope. No. I shout "vaccines, any sort of vaccine is venom, for me, and I don't want them in my life nor my children's lives.
    Nope I don't contradict myself whatsoever. Why? Because coronandemic freak show is not an emergency or desperate circumstance, it's a scam. I was addressing specifically to your comment about vehicle traffic.

    University got nothing to do with gorski's false sense of grandiosity, it's just plain verborrhea (verbal acrobatics spilling brown liquid) :D

    I went to university as well, was brainwashed, indoctrinated to believe in scientific cult. Now I've awaken.
     
  5. Mr.X

    Mr.X MDL Guru

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  6. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    #2146 Yen, Mar 4, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2021
    You are putting words into my mouth I have never said and then you say they are wrong.
    Did I say wearing white = being intelligent? No.
    Did I say I have studied in University? No. (FH and company academy).

    Did I say I am right with ivermectin? No.
    Is my assertion concerning ivermectin based on my profession? Yes.
    Do I wear white? Yes.
    Did I evaluate studies and develop own drugs ? Yes, more than 15 years.
    Did I post sources for reasoning ? Yes.

    There is opinion (declared as IMHO) and reasoning (underlined with sources).
    All the vaccines have been approved under emergency use. That IS reasoning for lacking safety and efficacy concerning to 'normal' approval.
    What is the difference? Emergency use = mass use. Normal use = use at lesser amount of people.

    What do I actually want?
    A debate.
    Saying something is crap. OK your opinion. Nothing wrong with it, although lacking of rational reasoning.
    Do you think all the doctors at FLCCC are idiots? OK. They are (in your mind). I am fine with it.

    But for me it hurts that ivermectin is not widely available BECAUSE I am convinced it is a lifesaver.
     
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  7. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
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    Did I go to Uni and studied philosophy and politics etc. - Yes.

    Do I have a better understanding of it than most uneducated people in those branches? - Yes. (Life is hard, sometimes - get used to it! :p )

    Do I like wearing white in the tropics - YES! :D

    Are you a wannabe smartarse, C-S? - Yes!

    I luv life-affirming YES! :D :p :D
     
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  8. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    #2148 Yen, Mar 5, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
    I have to admit sometimes I am lazy and I only wear a white shirt with my name on it. :D
    I did 15 years+ synthetic drugs / drug design and we published in BMJ / The Lancet, etc.
    My boss wanted a group of molecules, drew them on paper and we discussed how to realize them and I went to the lab and did it. (Sooner or later depending on success).

    Those then were tested and if being active they went to the clinical trials with all those phases.

    Then I moved to photochemistry. Publishing also in Planta Medica.

    And we cooperate with Universities also in GB and do exchange workgroups / people for special projects.

    Can I post what I am actually doing? No. There is NDA and I don't want to unveil my real identity linking to sources. (At some articles I am just 'et al.' ,but at some there is also my real name).

    I only can (and did) post crudely what I did / do. And I do train young people in the lab once a year (12 weeks internship).

    I am still in the lab working practically. I never wanted to have an office doing paperwork like my boss is doing.
     
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  9. case-sensitive

    case-sensitive MDL Expert

    Nov 7, 2013
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    yen ............ flucht nach vorn = LOL .

    Lets take your argument and debate it ......in public ....... in front of your students and collegues ? :) ...... what you said ...... what i said ...... statement for statement ...... :)

    The last 2 posts from you are EXACTLY the same ........ your telling me why you ....... ' think ' your right ....... because you work in a lab ....... because you had something published .............. because you made a drug .......... because because because = Blah blah . Stick to relevant facts and statements as made .
     
  10. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    #2150 Yen, Mar 5, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
    Yes, sure. That's called reasoning. And I repeat myself because it seems you are stubborn on that, lol.

    It's not important if I am right or not. It's important that if we have something that is effective and safe then the people must have access to it! Furthermore when its MOA is INDEPENDENT of variants / mutations!!!

    What's wrong with reasoning like: I am a baker for more than 15 years, I know what's a good bread? Just the same!

    I think I am right by evaluating its potential, I try to get it from India, I would take it in case of and I would give it to my family, too. Can I be personally more convinced?
    The meaning and role of ivermectin is evolving right now. So if I am right or not about the future role of ivermectin being a lifesaver..the answer is now evolving, too.
    You just need to stay up to date. Don't say something is crap without to really know it!

    And tell me, please. How can it be that a judge has to order measures for recovery? The 3rd time I know already?!? That is insane!




    Calling it yourself crap while reading wiki is just something you cannot hold...

    That's right. And I do have my common vaccinations, too.

    At COVID-19 there is a medically reasoned systemic difference, though.
    There are bloodstream transferred pathogens and respiratory transferred pathogens.

    At the latter (to which belongs SARS-CoV-2 as well) vaccines actually do not work that well.

    This is result of vaccine development history and can be reasoned by MOA.
    Antibodies which are created by vaccines (usually IgM and IgG first) are most effective on bloodstream transferred pathogens, The 'needed' IgA (the last one at class-switching) which does reside in the mucous are not created that much to get sterilizing immunity.
    And at respiratory transferred diseases it always strongly depends on viral load!

    Vaccines are very effective at bloodstream transferred pathogens. Tetanus, Diphtheria, Hepatitis B for instance.

    At COVID-19 one can hope to get protection against severe progresses. Anything additional would be a 'bonus'.

    -One still gets infected via respiratory tract, but spreading within the body is hindered.
    -One stays highly probably contagious anyway.
    -Each mutation at the target drops vaccine's efficacy.
     
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  11. drew84

    drew84 MDL Expert

    Mar 13, 2014
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    ... because you mentioned the above, and I do tend to take you a bit more seriously than some others.....
    had to do some follow up research..... which led to the following email to my daughter

    Came across this interesting article - Note the Published Date: 18 February 2021

    Ivermectin shows clinical benefits in mild to moderate COVID19: A randomised controlled double-blind, dose-response study in Lagos
    https://academic.oup.com/qjmed/advance-article/doi/10.1093/qjmed/hcab035/6143037

    A later article Published: 04 March 2021 contradicts this

    Effect of Ivermectin on Time to Resolution of Symptoms Among Adults With Mild COVID-19
    https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2777389

    What is interesting to me is:

    The drug (Ivermectin) itself was first introduced in the mid to late 70's and, is used for (amongst other things) the treatment of Lymphatic Filariasis (Filaria)
    a disease which I contracted sometime late 1968 and endured until (early) 69 (left me bedridden for Four/Five months - during which time I was told I would probably never walk again - Go Figure)

    A disease, by the way that I previously could find no reference to until the drug was mentioned on one of my forums, and the follow up research pointed me to
    the medical name.

    Lymphatic Filariasis (Transmitted via mosquito bite, infection usually first acquired during childhood)

    It is one of a group of conditions known as Neglected Tropical Diseases (NTDs).

    Once a person is infected, adult worms lodge in the body’s lymphatic vessels, affecting the lymphatic system. The worms can live for six to eight years,
    producing millions of larvae that circulate in the infected person’s blood.

    The disease can cause abnormally enlarged body parts (in my case legs and ...) which can be extremely painful and can lead to permanent physical changes.

    This condition, called lymphoedema, is highly stigmatised.

    In men, it can cause hydrocele, a form of lymphoedema that causes the scrotum to swell, ( ... unfortunately had to endure that as well) leading to pain and disability.

    WOW - Just found out something scary it is also known as Elephantiasis
    Which until just now I was mistakenly led to believe was a different disease,
    that although similar, was in fact inflicted by flies -- Just How Lucky Am I / Have Been
     
  12. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    #2152 Yen, Mar 5, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
    I travel frequently through S/E Asia (not nowadays due to covid) and most scaring to me are parasites and diseases transmitted by mosquitoes. Dengue and Malaria.
    I once had worms, but right under my feet's surface visible under the skin.They must have entered when I walked barefooted through an infested puddle, entered through a mosquito stitch (capillary).
    I am not sure what medicine I have got that time, but I took two pills and they died. Weeks later my skin under my feet started to go off and you still clearly could see the dead worms. Scary.

    The mechanism of action (MOA) of Ivermectin on worms is totally different compared to those MOAs suggested for SARS-CoV-2.
    At worms it has effect on glutamate-gated chloride channel (AgGluCl). It paralyses the worm.

    At SARS-CoV-2 it binds in between ACE2 (the virus binding site at cells) and the virus' S protein
    It also inhibits RNA-dependent RNA polymerase (RdRp) used for viral replication.
    And it inhibits Importin alpha/ beta2. A cargo into the nucleus. Abused by the virus to get cargo into the nucleus to tell: Do down-regulate your defences and do not tell the neighbour cells that something strange is going on.

    Different results at studies.
    We had to deal with that as well. It is not unusual.

    It mostly depends on the study design. And the art of science is to figure and compare and to check if significance is dominant and how many studies there are which show no effect.
    Invermectin doesn't show here significance at mild COVID.
    Other studies show significance at prophylaxis and high significance at severe progresses.

    To me India and Peru which are actually huge live studies with thousands of people are more significant. At Peru it's very impressing. The numbers went down after they used IVM. Lima was behind (acts as the Placebo group) and then the new govt cancelled the IVM program and numbers raised again. Also the relative low numbers at certain states of India (Uttar Pradesh) can be reasoned by the use of IVM.

    The point is: One does not know if one becomes severe. The earlier Ivermectin is present the better the chances to keep away from severe progresses.
    I am getting info and stay updated every day. I also have personal opinions from MDs reporting their own experiences applying Ivermectin.

    Here for you if being interested: https://covid19criticalcare.com/wp-...the-prophylaxis-and-treatment-of-COVID-19.pdf

    And here all the complexity of MOA of ivermectin illustrated in an understandable way. Far more detailed as I have posted:
     
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  13. vladnil

    vladnil MDL Senior Member

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    Here's the news - like about penguins?
    Everyone laughed and everything is OK.
    But don't forget that nothing is published just like that!
    Bird flu?
    But Russia in 2021 has already launched the release of the bird flu vaccine (how do you like the news?)

    I always said that people have a short memory and they forget everything (words are not mine)
    Here's a fake virus like the other. (no laboratory in the world has an isolated virus)
    And how many videos were there about the courts and the exposure of swine and bird flu, but that's all?
    Forgot!
    But I will remind you of the essence of the matter!

    The Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe will host the first hearing on the role of the World Health Organization (WHO) in exaggerating the dangers of H1N1 and H5N8 swine flu, and collusion with pharmaceutical companies on the need for mass vaccinations against the disease. Parliamentarians intend to launch an investigation into the "influence of the pharmaceutical industry within the WHO."

    The hearing was initiated by a member of the health commission, German doctor and epidemiologist Wolfgang Wodarg, who considers the history of H5N8 and swine flu "one of the biggest medical scandals of the century" and accuses pharmaceutical laboratories of organizing psychosis around it. Dr. Wodarg cites the case of Klaus Steer, who has long been the head of the epidemiology department at WHO and has since become a "high-ranking employee of Novartis." He also claims that the European influenza working group, which plays a central role in WHO's liaison with research institutions, is heavily influenced by Sanofi Pasteur, Novartis, GlaxoSmithKline and Baxter (all pharmaceutical companies). By the way, representatives of these companies were summoned to testify in the French Senate on January 20. A meeting was held on the territory of Russia, where the Russian Duma, which called for an investigation into suspicion of corruption, and if this is confirmed, raise the issue of Russia's withdrawal from WHO.

    Google translation:
     
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  14. vladnil

    vladnil MDL Senior Member

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    Yen
    Basti Region lived in Utar Pradesh for 2 years for work and a little less in Kerala state.
    I will tell you so
    for 2 years I have not been ill with anything, although I have been to places where locals are afraid to go.
     
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  15. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    #2155 Yen, Mar 6, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2021
    Something additional:
    How to deal with studies and the 'issue' that results can vary.
    There are meta studies and meta analyses.
    The goal there is to analyse and compare the studies themselves.

    The pdf I had posted at #2160 includes meta analyses.
    Meta analyses have the advantage that you can compare lots of cohorts and you can figure which study results are significant or which are just statistical outliers.

    I also posted at youtube at vaccine related videos. There are far more trolls compared to MDL.
    Like "Have you developed your own vaccine? No, then shut up." or "A Chemist has no clue about Biology"
    The funny thing is all those posts come from trolls who never heard of any science. To which amount / skills a Chemist knows about Biology strongly depends on what Chemistry one is doing and at which branch one is applying Chemistry.
    And even if not the Biology is far sufficient to understand vaccines. I already learned about viruses when I was 14.


    I rather post here.
    And my focus is on drugs recently. (Although I keep all the vaccines in my eye). Ivermectin and for long COVID-19 people with CNS issues Fluvoxamin.

    The pros are the MDs applying known drugs. They see their actions right in front of their eyes.
    To know the science for reasoning it is helpful to be involved in drug design.

    But although I can say: Have you developed own drugs? Yes. The MDs are more pro than me. Recommending a drug is job for MDs. Each individual has a medical history and there are drug / drug interactions.

    I am convinced of it. But I can only take responsibility where I am able to. This applies for myself and my family only. And probably close friends.
     
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  16. Mr.X

    Mr.X MDL Guru

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  17. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    #2157 Yen, Mar 6, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2021
    I have read it twice and did not find a relation to the mRNA used at the current vaccines nor did it make any sense what's posted.

    So I decided to find the original source:
    https://www.mskcc.org/news/scientists-find-cancer-drivers-hiding-rna-not-dna

    It's important to have a sceptical look at the vaccines...but out of relation panic is also not suitable...
    But I agree, especially cancer is a subject which cannot be tested sufficiently that short time.

    Edit: I studied the source a bit more.
    The found issue occurs here:"From DNA to mRNA" means at transcription.

    The unnecessary parts, the introns are cut out, the exons, the necessary parts later then spliced together. IF now an exon is missing or cut short the found issue is reasoned. The translated protein (translated from the faulty mRNA in the ribosome) is truncated.

    At mRNA vaccines the mRNA is injected directly. There is neither DNA involved nor the nucleus.
    If this issue should play a role then only at DNA vaccines or DNA vectors. But both are external DNA and not own DNA (genome) residing in the nucleus from which the mentioned mRNA is transcribed.

    Sorry to say. It's even from the biochemical POV NOT related to the mRNA vaccines.
     
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  18. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    #2158 Yen, Mar 6, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2021
    News on Ivermectin
    Wow, the fronts seem to harden. And lobbyism strikes back on mainstream media CNN.

    "UK BIRD Panel Sends Ivermectin Recommendation To World Health Organization"
    BIRD=British Ivermectin Recommendation Development

    There is also a study from Israel in the video saying it works well and a voice that it has to be an additional treatment to vaccines for given reasons. Anything is well reasoned here.

    And the opponents:
    FDA "Why You Should Not Use Ivermectin to Treat or Prevent COVID-19"
    https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consu...-not-use-ivermectin-treat-or-prevent-covid-19

    CNN "FDA warns against using anti-parasitic drug for Covid-19 after reports of hospitalizations"
    https://edition.cnn.com/2021/03/05/health/ivermectin-covid-19-fda-statement-wellness/index.html

    Unbelievable.The FDA's arguments do apply to any drug, not to IVM alone. And people take horse paste Ivermectin (animal meds containing IVM) and get risk of over-dosage BECAUSE the official use is prevented by such authorities.

    OMG. It's such a shame. I hope scientific reason does win here and IVM gets approved so MDs can prescribe it to be used as it should and people don't have to take horse paste and the like.
     
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  19. Mr.X

    Mr.X MDL Guru

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  20. Palladin

    Palladin MDL Senior Member

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    Yen:
    I was in a local feed store and saw the horse dose of Ivermectin. It was like a giant hot dog, or stick of salami. About 2" in diameter, maybe 8" long. And it listed all the ingredients and sure enough Ivermectin was included. I just couldn't see eating that thing,not knowing what the proper human prescription was, or what the other horse stuff was included.

    What amazes me is the excuses that are made for _not_ allowing that average person to take it.

    For example, if I posted here that I had lower back pain and wanted suggestions for relief, I would probably get many suggestions. Maybe I should take Advil, some would suggest maybe just regular asprin. Aleve or Tylonel might also be suggested. What is common in all of these recommendations is that all of the products are readily available, and very inexpensive. All have been used by millions of people with very few harmful side effects.

    I'm sure there are many articles written that would say one or all of the above suggestions are not going to relieve back pain. And they might be correct. But what's the harm in trying. One or all of them might offer some relief and there's little risk in giving each one a try to see if they help with your back pain.

    Yet when it comes to something like Covid-19 that can kill you the medical establishment offers no cure, and forbids the use of Ivermectin when it has been shown not to be harmful, and there are many people getting positive results from using it.

    But the Medical establishment says, you can't use it, we can't offer any cure, so you get to watch your mother/father/sister/brother suffocate on their own spit and die a painful and horrible death.

    .