Coronavirus | Discussion

Discussion in 'Serious Discussion' started by Deleted member 1254778, Feb 28, 2020.

  1. Yen

    Yen Admin (retired)
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    Something to add to 'selectively choosing' in case it's not clear yet: I am one of those Malone's.....I have a similar understanding of the matter bioethics etc etc...
     
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  2. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
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    #3822 gorski, Jan 18, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2022
    Bioethics? It's the geniuses who "think" we are but animals and should be "governed by the laws of jungle", right...??? Jesus Marx wept!

    To the point: that guy said NOTHING! Sweet f*** all!!! A typical political speech about truth and data implying only him and his ilk have the proper IQ, scientific knowledge to understand and properly interpret the data = without saying anything about anything! @Yen, it is bewildering that you can't see a stupid propaganda video for what it really is!!!

    Moreover, you still have no answer to these important question, @Yen! How many more people would you have sacrificed on the altar of your partial understanding of statistics - with no understanding of what makes a good public health policy?!? How many more people are you trying to get rid of?!?

    Therefore...

    Really? Show me a place where Omicron and only Omicron is active/"alive"?!?

    You have no idea just how selective you are and what that does to your arguments...

    So, when experts in the area warn that it is not a given that mutations must become milder and that they might take a turn for the worse - you ignore, right? You know better, right? So, what happened with Delta in relation to other mutations? I mean, it killed millions...

    So, in short, no one can come up with anything new, any new supposition, new working hypothesis, a new "idea", right?!? Only those who already came up with something "new" long ago will have ever been allowed to come up with something new, right?

    Yen, you may have "reasoned" but you were wrong at least at one stage - because you have changed your position! In fact, several times. So, if you are only "objective" how come you changed your position so drastically?!? You really don't at least "feel" the gross contradiction of your position here, just on this topic/issue?

    AFTER you changed your position you started a new jolly mantra and you kept saying this is "nothing", this is "not a pandemic", that the measures were ridiculous, totally over the top, unnecessary, that the Swedish model was the right way to go and all manner of utter nonsense, despite the fact we all saw that Sweden has killed many more of its people than was necessary - by comparison to their neighbours, i.e. comparable countries! Why? Because of their dogmatic, autistic, rigid approach to the measures, insisting old people do not count, young and able can go on about their business as before... How many millions around the world died in the meantime, even with the measures in place?!? How many more would have died WITHOUT the measures?!?

    So, yes, sure, you ignored, all right!!! Thankfully, you and "scientists" who were "thinking" like you - "only scientifically" - were largely not listened to!!!

    Sadly, we have had not only good but also some bad politicians who might have listened to the likes of your gurus or stupid libertarians who were only interested in the 'freedom' to do whatever the fcuk they wanted, regardless of the cost to others or even themselves.

    Seriously?!?
     
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  3. Yen

    Yen Admin (retired)
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    #3823 Yen, Jan 19, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2022
    Senegal, Lebanon, Philippines, Norway,.....etc etc and if you add those 95%+ there are even far more nations..... UK belongs also to it 97% omicron 3% delta....

    A typical way how troublemaker do argue. They state something personally out of the wild and then demand from others to prove otherwise.

    Oh for you:https://covariants.org/per-country
    Do you need help to read the diagrams?
     
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  4. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    Hold on a second: you are asking to be included in the debate as somebody on the fringes and then you dismiss those who warn that the data does not support either ideas about it being over or that Omicron means no nastier version is possible after it, even though those viruses keep mutating... That's a bit rich...

    Moreover, today on the UK radio (BBC4) epidemiologists argue something that you - given your minimising the measures, rubbishing the idea that this was/is a pandemic etc. - can't possibly understand or support: they are saying that we shall now see a "double bounce effect" - because the UK government firstly didn't react fast enough, so there was a nasty spike in cases and now (reducing the measures as soon as they saw some reduction in numbers of reported cases) there will be another because they are removing the measures too soon! Their advice is: KEEP THE MEASURES IN PLACE (one of the reasons was that Delta isn't gone and another that the virus can and indeed will mutate further)!!! But you know better, right...
     
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  5. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    Btw, they are doing proper mapping in Senegal, Lebanon etc.?!? Gimme a break...
     
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  6. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    Seen the maps, thanx!

    Question: is the virus still mutating?

    Will there be new variants?

    Are other, older variants still present?

    Are you still going to prophesise the demise of the pandemic in no time and only the mild variant remaining?

    Well, earlier you mentioned these phenomena (mutation is constant etc.) yourself... We also witnessed Delta killing millions, did we not? Some mutations were milder but Delta wasn't, was it?

    So, now you choose to ignore those facts because right now they do not fit the current narrative...

    And therefore you keep repeating the same pattern of behaviour as I described above, several times, at several stages of the pandemic discussion here...
     
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  7. Mr.X

    Mr.X MDL Guru

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    Not addressed to you pink moron but to anyone reading...

    Millions die every year. It's "normal".
    Fraudulent handling of this Plandemic worldwide, says it's covid.
     
  8. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    #3828 gorski, Jan 19, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2022
    You are a moron because at least I - and other level headed people here - posted in this thread, not once, the difference between expected and excess deaths but you keep spouting uniformed stupidities because you have this cretinous conspiraloon "perspective"...

    https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid

    Oh, look, there is Mexico, quite high - but this is all a hoax, eh?

    https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-deaths-tracker

    Excess deaths since country’s first 50 covid deaths
    Last updated on January 17th
    COUNTRY / CITY
    TIME PERIOD
    COVID-19 DEATHS
    EXCESS DEATHS
    EXCESS DEATHS
    PER 100K PEOPLE
    Bulgaria
    Apr 20th 2020-Jan 2nd 2022
    30,980
    60,940
    884
    Russia
    Apr 1st 2020-Dec 31st 2021
    302,650
    1,090,940
    748
    Serbia
    Apr 1st 2020-Nov 30th 2021
    11,680
    48,710
    709
    North Macedonia
    Apr 1st 2020-Oct 31st 2021
    7,120
    13,740
    660
    Lithuania
    May 25th 2020-Jan 2nd 2022
    7,370
    17,050
    634
    Peru
    Mar 23rd 2020-Jan 9th 2022
    202,980
    208,280
    624
    Romania
    Mar 30th 2020-Nov 28th 2021
    56,230
    112,880
    590
    Bosnia and Herzegovina
    Apr 1st 2020-Sep 30th 2021
    10,590
    16,800
    515
    Mexico
    Mar 30th 2020-Dec 5th 2021
    290,910
    609,190
    468
    Slovakia
    Sep 28th 2020-Dec 19th 2021
    15,970
    24,560
    450
    Kazakhstan
    Jun 1st 2020-Oct 31st 2021
    17,040
    79,070
    416
    Poland
    Mar 30th 2020-Dec 12th 2021
    88,460
    155,240
    411
    Latvia
    Oct 19th 2020-Dec 19th 2021
    4,400
    7,560
    405
    South Africa
    Apr 13th 2020-Jan 9th 2022
    91,880
    242,650
    404
    Hungary
    Apr 6th 2020-Dec 12th 2021
    36,400
    38,490
    399
    Croatia
    Apr 20th 2020-Nov 28th 2021
    10,710
    16,010
    392
    Albania
    Jun 1st 2020-Sep 30th 2021
    2,660
    11,220
    391
    Bolivia
    Apr 1st 2020-Sep 30th 2021
    18,730
    46,190
    390
    Ecuador
    Mar 23rd 2020-Jan 2nd 2022
    21,030
    67,390
    377
    Czech Republic
    Mar 30th 2020-Nov 28th 2021
    32,910
    39,560
    369
     
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  9. Mr.X

    Mr.X MDL Guru

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    No it's not a conspiranoid perspective. The fact true information is censored by mainstream media doesn't make it a conspiracy theory.

    I've talked with several doctors, not that many, but some honest doctors.

    Then, I've been reading information on the web and social media where important and honest scientists concur.

    And it's not my opinion it's them, ergo I believe in them.
     
  10. Mr.X

    Mr.X MDL Guru

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    Excess deaths?

    If that's true then I wonder why you still around here...
    ;)
     
  11. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    WHO = MSM?!?

    Almost the whole medical and scientific sphere of society = MSM?!?

    FFS!!!!
     
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  12. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    'Cause I was vaccinated and I was careful! Unlike you - but at least you were lucky, which is good (not that you understand empathy and solidarity but there you go...)!!!
     
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  13. vladnil

    vladnil MDL Senior Member

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  14. Yen

    Yen Admin (retired)
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    There is no proper mapping as you would understand. You need to know statistical basic definitions of "Grundgesamtheit" English "population" and "Teilerhebung" English "partial census"...
    Either way Norway has best ratio.

    Yes, of course the virus is still mutating. It does in every infected human all the time. It is an attribute of this phenotype.

    And yes there will be new variants. But variants are human definitions out of those mutations, also the assignment of Greek letters to them as a VOC is a human definition.

    VariantOfConcern. The concern here is that it could escape the vaccines. This has nothing to do with any other attribute such as virulence and contagion.
    It's a spike simulation of how 'different' it is to the old crap Wuhan spike

    VOC is an instrument for the vaccine makers to control panic. They could have updated the vaccines much earlier so to announce VOCs would become obsolete.

    It is not about 'narrative' here. It's about basics of epidemiology. The evolution of virus has a direction and an 'optimum'. This optimum is asymptotically approximated. For instance the receptor binding strength has a maximum.

    The driving force is R Naught. Wuhan<delta<Omicron.

    "Are other, older variants still present?" They also asymptotically approximate extinction. If you want to see a diagram I have posted one already.
    It's in the Dutch report page 11 (I am READING all the sources which I do post!) https://t.co/TJ6peBST2I

    Mutations, variants, strains.
    Those should be understood before making an assessment!

    Each dot is an own mutation!
    https://nextstrain.org/ncov/gisaid/global

    And there is actually no single Omicron mutation.
    There are mutations which belong to the variant Omicron!
    And Omicron has already 2 types. 21K and 21L
     
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  15. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    Yes, I know all that (partially thanx to this thread;) and you:) and partially down to having free time and educating myself continuously, especially in Public Health Policy additionally) but you evaded the questions of importance. Delta was a mutation but not a "weaker" mutation, was it? And so on, you keep blocking what does not fit the narrative you adopted from your gurus...

    "VOC as an instrument of panic control"? Man, you are getting ever more cynical, I fear...:rolleyes::D

    Listen, the work continues and this nonsense I hear is based in FEAR - of science, of what you do not understand, all those conspiraloon "theories", oychhh! So, charging the politicians and MSM with doing precisely that - spreading fear - immediately draws the images of pot calling a kettle black and all that... Seriously, a bit rich!!!

    If you are pointing to numbers - chew on vaccine numbers given... 8.5 billion doses given, more than 3.5 billion people getting them - seriously, what are the grounds for "fearing the experimental vaccines" after all this?!? Badly and madly populist cr@p!

    Experts are now talking about more and more work being done on anti-virals attacking not the spike but the reproduction mechanism (so the whole family of these viruses being attacked, allegedly). So, you anti-medicine, anti-science lot: will you ignore them? I really wanna know...:rolleyes:

    EDIT: one of the links I posted speaks of sampling when mapping/testing and that no country has proper numbers! Many qualifications used, @Yen!!! So, forget about that story - at least for the time being - with any certainty! Especially Lebanon and Senegal (I hate this but I will use it exceptionally here) LOOOOLLLLL!!!!! :D :p :D
     
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  16. Yen

    Yen Admin (retired)
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    To make this clear again.
    SARS-CoV-2 does mutate naturally and that won't stop.

    But if there will be new variants depends on human definitions.
    One could define a variant in that way which would INCLUDE all further mutations.

    But as soon as you say if a certain mutation meets the definitions of a new variant, there will be a new variant.:)
     
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  17. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    Ach, c'mon, were there milder versions prior to Delta?
     
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  18. spanishfly

    spanishfly MDL Senior Member

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    #3838 spanishfly, Jan 20, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2022
    You're arguments would make better sense and your logic easier to follow if you defined your terms.
    Versions? Do you mean VariantOfConcern (VOC), mutations, what?
    Milder? Do you mean escape potential, virulence, contagion, what?
    These are are all totally seperate things. And even more specificity is required with a zootrophic virus. Do you mean milder in humans or in gerbils or bats?

    And compassion. Compassion for the 7 trillion humans or the much smaller population of poor sick bats in that cave in Wuhan?
    When are the pharmaceutical scientists going to develop a vaccine for bats? They vaccinate cows and other domesticated food animals. Why not take care of Wuhans wet-market food source?

    These are really the important questions that no one sems to be answering. It least in my mind, but, of couse, you've already dismissed me as incapable of logical thinking.
     
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  19. vladnil

    vladnil MDL Senior Member

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  20. Yen

    Yen Admin (retired)
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    #3840 Yen, Jan 20, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2022
    No. Wuhan can be seen as most virulent.

    It's like talking to a wall.
    I explained it a few posts before but still....gorski does ignore it.
    The driving force is R0, the goal is to optimize. Delta is a VOC and therefore a human definition of a pool of mutations that has the same potential for instance to escape the spike vaccines. But 'lethality' is not a criterion.
    https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/variants/variant-classifications.html

    There are factors which one can scientifically determine such as replication in a certain kind of tissue, or a binding force to a special receptor, OR what's very special at Omicron a NEW way to enter a cell

    At the HKUMed study from Hong Kong you can nicely see that Wuhan (original) replicates more deep down the lung than delta, omicron fewest of all.
    https://www.med.hku.hk/en/news/press/20211215-omicron-sars-cov-2-infection
    If he would have read that study he knows that this can be taken to reason that delta is 'milder' as Wuhan.

    And you can figure that Delta binds better to ACE2 than original wuhan. Omicron should actually bind even better (since its R0 is greater) but it doesn't https://www.nature.com/articles/s41392-021-00863-2
    The greater R0 can be reasoned by the fact that Omicron has an alternative way (endocytosis) to capture a cell.
    https://forums.mydigitallife.net/threads/coronavirus-discussion.81224/page-185#post-1715620

    This matter requires scientific discourse!
    But it's the same. You do measure an epidemiological difference and you do try to find virological attributes which can reason that difference.
    A higher R0 could be reasoned by a higher binding affinity to the entry receptor ACE2. But that is at Omicron not the case. It has instead of a second way!!!

    On the other hand if saying which variant has killed more humans, then it's delta so far...one reason therefore is simply the fact that delta is the variant that has the greatest duration so far...but its extinction is only a matter of time.
    And there might be another question:

    Will Omicron mutate back to a more lethal variant?
    The answer is: No.
    It theoretically could (although to delete ins214EPE, 3 in a row, is pretty much unlikely), but then it would be hard and unlikely that this mutation becomes dominant.


    OK something one should consider..news
    "EU Drug Regulator Warns Against Overuse of COVID Booster Shots"
    https://www.voanews.com/a/eu-drug-r...t-overuse-of-covid-booster-shots/6395174.html
    And: https://www.reuters.com/business/he...ta-needed-impact-omicron-vaccines-2022-01-11/

    Although this is MSM the warning has been issued on the press conference of the EMA.
    And there is a scientific mechanism that exists! It's called T cell exhaustion and that it might be triggered IS a valid concern.
    So everybody who has a vaccine subscription.....you could blow your immune system by that.

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21739672/#:~:text=T cell exhaustion is a,effector or memory T cells
     
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