Coronavirus | Discussion

Discussion in 'Serious Discussion' started by Deleted member 1254778, Feb 28, 2020.

  1. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    The article has no source posted, which actually belongs to serious journalism. It's a copy and paste which is going around ATM.
    Novavax hasn't been approved yet by the FDA and the FDA is in the process of approval...here at EU it has got EUA already...

    Myocarditis and pericarditis are serious issues. Severe or fatal, never mild. So it makes perfectly sense to have a close look at them.
    I did some research and think they refer to this study:
    https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2116185

    So to answer your question:
    Around 20,000

    But you won't find there anything about heart issues. So I dug a bit deeper:
    https://www.nejm.org/doi/suppl/10.1056/NEJMoa2116185/suppl_file/nejmoa2116185_appendix.pdf

    Hint for everybody: Always have a look at supplementary indexes of a study!
    Usually you won't find details, especially negative details on the main papers.

    Search there for Cardiac disorders and you'll find even more cases.

    My take on this:
    Studies before already indicated that heart related issues come from the antigen itself (Spike).
    So you also find heart related issues at COVID itself....

    This means it is COVID vaccine related, not type of vaccine related. Most if not all COVID vaccines either contain the spike protein or a blueprint for it as an antigen. (AFAIK only one or two not yet approved candidates have other antigens)...

    What is the difference at occurrence of heart issues anyway:

    -At genetic vaccines such as mRNA and vector virus vaccines you never know the actual dose of the antigen produced. They instruct your body to make it. The dose of the genetic blueprint is of course defined, but not the production rate. So if you have a productive machinery you make more of it than another one.

    -Biodistribution. The big WHERE. Where is it made and to where travels it.
    At genetic vaccines it is always made within a human cell.

    At Novavax you always administer a defined dose of the antigen itself and always directly into the deltoid muscle.

    I already mentioned. To use the s protein as the antigen was not the best idea.
    It was expectable that Novavax will also cause heart related issues since we know the s protein can travel a lot...although since the dose is exactly defined it should lead to a more consistent rate, probably lower on average compared to Moderna or Pfizer...

    Since all the vaccines do not protect you from getting infected (sooner or later) I'd consider any heart related issue of vaccines as additional risk only. (The virus itself comes with the s protein anyway)....
     
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  2. Palladin

    Palladin MDL Senior Member

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    #4282 Palladin, Jun 4, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2022
    Yen:
    Thanks for the thorough analysis. It always amazes me how the MSM almost always fails to report all the facts, instead it relies on only reporting whatever hysteria that might generate the most reactions.

    Had the media said something like this....In a trial by Novavax the FDA discovered that 5 of the 20,000 patients had some sort of heart related adverse reactions. What do you think the reaction to that headline would be. Crickets probably.

    Then there's the Monkey Virus hysteria. I can't find it now, but there was a table published that listed 23 Countries and the total cases of Monkey Virus cases was 250. That equates to a bit more than 10 per COUNTRY, not cities, COUNTRY. And there were, zip, zero, nada fatalities in those 23 COUNTRIES.

    Here's something I put together back in April 2022 showing the Covid-19 deaths by percentage of population by state in the US.
     

    Attached Files:

  3. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    #4283 Yen, Jun 4, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2022
    Heart related issues or cardiac disorders are generic terms. Both actually describe a set of symptoms / illnesses.

    Myocarditis is inflammation of the heart muscle, pericarditis inflammation of the pericardium (heart sac) which is a protective layer around it.
    And they list myocardial infarction, which is known as heart attack caused by a blocked artery.
    There was no pericarditis at that study.

    Those 3 are mentioned frequently since they are severe for sure.
    The tissue gets damaged due to inflammation and / or undersupply of blood. The body tries to repair it usually by creating new tissue. But some 'places' might get left-out and the new tissue usually has a different physics since it is scar tissue.
    At critical condition you need to get hospitalized / surgery.


    It can lead to different physics and performance of the heart which can be imaged by heart MRT. The physical performance additionally via ECG. Some leftovers can be permanent (damage).

    If you summarize Novavax vaccine has caused 10 cases versus placebo 6. (Table S16)
    They list 3 age groups each, but the placebo groups are smaller. The relative percentages now are quite similar so the vaccine doesn't look really worse than placebo.

    What's odd is the fact that the heart related issues found at placebo are way over average of what usually happens at the population (corresponding age groups). THIS is the point I am struggling with.

    Vaccine development.
    If I have to develop new COVID vaccines I'd use the RBD as an antigen, perfectly a mixture of those which represent current variants. If possible rather a nasal application.

    Monkey pox:
    There had been small outbreaks at several countries all the time before. Besides of that it is endemic in Central African Republic, the Democratic Republic of the Congo etc....

    This is nothing special, but now due to COVID it gets hyped at any MSM.
    It has been discovered in monkeys first, although it actually does not spread within monkeys. It rather does in rodents and jumps from there. (Zoonosis).


    It's not contagious IF you know the way it gets transmitted. You need close physical contact to the infectious fluids which are found within the blisters on the skin, lesions and contaminated materials such as bedding.

    You need to get into quarantine for 25 days. Masks are BS. You have to protect yourself when caring about an infected person. (Avoid direct contact to those fluids / bedding)

    There are two clades of monkeypox virus: The West African clade and the Congo Basin (Central African) clade. The latter is the one that is more dangerous, but so far only the West African clade has spread.

    Monkey pox is usually a self-limiting disease due to its way to spread.
     
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  4. Palladin

    Palladin MDL Senior Member

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    I located the link I was referring to, and it has been updated.
    Now 36 Countries reporting, 915 reported cases, and still not one fatality.

    https://bnonews.com/monkeypox/

    And somehow this is front page news???

    .
     
  5. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    @Yen, I'd take (being triple vaccinated):

    15%
    34%
    unquantified (meaning large %) of non-fatal outcome

    "advantages" over being unvaccinated any day!

    I'd ask "How about you?" but...

    P.S. My elder son went to a museum on a school trip, meaning using public transport and probably not proper usage of masks, distancing etc.

    He brought home C-19, as he fell down with headache, fever etc. first. Then his younger brother, with similar symptoms.

    Mercifully, this version seems much lighter (we hope, from what we have experienced so far).

    All 4 of us have C-19 now - but even I don't have severe symptoms (with my asthma, allergies etc.).

    Kids took some paracetamol, to reduce the fever and within 2-3 days they seem fine (still test positive but weaker).

    Wife seems a bit worse than me, taking more or less nothing and roughing it. But she's younger... And she is a woman, unlike us, the weakling men... :D :p :D

    I am taking Azithromycin, 2 inhalers (steroids for asthma) and a nose spray (allergies) and it currently feels like a very weak cold.

    But had it happened when the earlier virus variants were strong and killing millions, inundating hospitals etc. - who knows...

    So, yes, THE measures and VACCINES - job done, thanx to responsible and strategically thinking scientists and some politicians creating good public health policies!!!

    Plus, of course, our own rational approach to the issues, being decently disciplined... :)
     
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  6. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    #4286 Yen, Jun 6, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2022
    First of all I am glad to hear that everybody of your family and you did not get severe symptoms. :)
    The statement 'You / We sooner or later all get infected' is on its way to come true. Well, since sooner or later is a vague period of time it actually is hard that this statement cannot become true... :)

    I'd rather say...the major job done is by natural mutation to a less severe variant. The 'less severe' variant 'saves' more lives than the vaccines.
    Regardless of how somebody assesses the protection of the vaccines it always has to be compared against the severe adverse events they are causing.

    0.8%!!! found by Charité Berlin, Prof. Matthes. (The study has been criticized a lot, though. To me it isn't understandable since it actually is a bit lower than the other study I knew already.)

    If you summarize only the last groups of the other study ...
    "5/803 (0.62%) required help from an emergency department and 2/803 (0.25%) required hospitalization"

    ...you even get 0.87%. And nobody can tell me that "required help from an emergency department" and "required hospitalization" does not indicate a severe progress.
    And both means acute progress which means does not include chronic processes such as long covid like adverse events from the vaccines...(for instance Neuropathic symptoms as described at the NIH/NIND Study)

    Imagine how many millions people on earth are 0.8% of all vaccinated! And even if it would be half only..how much 'collateral' suffering the vaccines caused by severe adverse events to actually HEALTHY people.

    There had been a monkey pox outbreak in the US 2003. AFAIK somebody imported animals (rats and squirrels) from Ghana which were infected.
    Those then jumped onto prairie dogs and from there onto humans.

    No fatal case there, too. And no big news that time at all!
     
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  7. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    Thank you kindly!

    I disagree in the sense that initially the measures and vaccines were necessary...

    Now, we can talk about it... I listened to your advice, read your posts, with many studies cited and didn't vaccinate my kids. Now, it's easier...

    But if a new variant gets nasty - vaccines must be an option, we need them there, I am sure you would agree, if you think about the millions who died initially, the public medicine system going overwhelmed...
     
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  8. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    "Efficient assembly of a large fragment of monkeypox virus genome as a qPCR template using dual-selection based transformation-associated recombination"
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1995820X22000414

    What does this 'mean'?
    The paper is about how to artificially assemble the monkeypox virus!
    The given / official goal: To have virus material in order to develop a working qPCR test for it.

    My comments.....as if there would be no natural source to get the virus from there.
    To reason / justify artificial assembly of monkey-pox virus by saying we need reference to develop a valid PCR test for it is like a joke...

    Click on the show more option below the authors of the paper and guess what..... the Wuhan Institute of Virology is part of the game to assemble artificial MPXV...

    Nothing said on my side, can be coincidental.
    Here you can check the numbers of cases: https://ourworldindata.org/monkeypox

    Current hypotheses:
    -COVID vaccines might have weakened the immune system so MPXV can easier spread.
    -The cross immunity from the smallpox vaccines vanishes more and more from the population since vaccination campaign has stopped in the 70s...
    -Another outbreak from Wuhan lab.
    -Nothing, just a coincidence.

    I actually prefer the latter with a slight tendency to the first one.
     
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  9. Yen

    Yen Admin
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  10. ipx

    ipx MDL Addicted

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    #4290 ipx, Jun 7, 2022
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2022
    .
     
  11. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    :p:D:p:D:p

    Thank you kindly, @ipx - trying to sleep aplenty and taking my vits and meds and inhalers... It helps...

    Stay well yourself!!! We all need a bit of luck, too - well, these days... it's like a lottery...
     
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  12. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    The FDA briefing ended in suggesting EUA for Novavax anyway.
    The important bit in the pdf you find on page 47 IMHO.

    The concern came from the fact that cardiac issues already occurred at the pre-authorisation evaluation.
    At the mRNA vaccines it did not. So are their arguments.

    It remains to be seen if Novavax is really causing more cardiac issues than mRNA vaccines.
    I refrain from adding my 2 cents to it. :)
     
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  13. Palladin

    Palladin MDL Senior Member

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    Yen:
    Thanks for the link.
    I'm reading it now, and on Page 7 there's something that just stood out to me.

    =========================================================================
    The SARS-CoV-2 pandemic continues to present a challenge to global health and, as of May 26, 2022, has caused over 527 million cases of COVID-19, including 6.3 million deaths worldwide (WHO, 2022). In the US, approximately 83 million cases and 1 million deaths have been reported to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC, 2022a). From March 7, 2020, to May 14, 2022, adults 18 years of age and older accounted for 82.4% of COVID-19- associated hospitalizations and 99.8% of deaths from COVID-19 (CDC, 2022c).
    ==========================================================================

    If 99.8% of the deaths were all 18 years or older, why on earth would the drug companies and the MSM promote vaccinations for anyone under 18, and they are pushing it for much younger children.

    Seems almost criminal to me that they would push these vaccines on younger people. And make no mistake about it. All the drug companies know of these stats.

    .
     

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  14. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    #4294 Yen, Jun 8, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2022
    Guess how hard it had been to me to make clear to my close friends which have kids of that age (<18) that from a pure rational POV it makes no sense to vaccinate.
    I also made it clear that up to 30 years of age the negative events from the vaccines are outweighing the benefits.
    People still do not fully recognise that COVID vaccines do not have a regular approval nor are they 'conventional'...

    I had to learn that you cannot advise persons which are full of fears.... rationality does not get to fertile grounds there.
    I also had to learn that even physicians and scientists had lost any rationality when it came to COVID vaccines...they should know it better and they should be a sort of immune to irrationality due to their profession. But even they had fallen over due to fear which is like a virus that eats up rationality.
    I was left back being inconceivable....the poor parents who had to make a decision about their kids being utterly misguided.
    "Oh well, it cannot harm, better than to do nothing. A shot or 2 for my kids so they can get back their normal life....and by that me2."

    The misperception already started by the idea that there is need at kids to do something against 'it'...
    Against 'what'? ... An illusionary idea created and fed by MSM...


    To me any physician who agreed with general vaccination of kids is just a poor physician. A person who has lost rationality at a situation where rationality is most needed...if not there, where else?
     
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  15. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    Yes, now it looks like that but when it was raging - hmmm...

    Also, different variants behaved differently in various groups...

    Or so we were told... by the doctors, while MSM were simply repeating it...

    But then again, not all scientists are led merely by scientific truth, as we all know by now...
     
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  16. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    #4296 Yen, Jun 9, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2022
    Yes that's right. But the 'thing' is far more complex. It involved a great variety of subjects of science.
    I learned a lot, talked a lot (since I work at preclinical research it's easy to find skilled people to talk personally if I want to know stuff)...discussed a lot.....

    Let me divide 2 groups of scientifically related persons to start an illustration: :)
    We have the physicians or people who would administer the vaccines and also treat COVID if infected and getting symptoms.

    And we have the 'non-physicians' which I do here divide into 2 sub-groups
    1. Those who have directly studied subjects 'closely' related to the pandemic itself. Virologists and Epidemiologists.
    2. Those who are involved in vaccine development, vaccinologists, or generally pharmaceutical development.

    You see, to have things being at optimum, you NEED a healthy cooperation of instances. Discourses. Interactions. You need a situation where one can RELY on the others.
    There is hardly a all in one person who could do that. And politics / public health is not even included.

    The majority of physicians did NOT want to leave their comfort zone! They 'RELIED' on what was said. They relied on the authorities and their recommendations. This is actually not wrong but presumes even that one CAN rely on another one at all.

    It is quite more comfortable to apply what the general public does and does advise. If it goes wrong you can 'hide' behind it and feel 'good' since you are not the only one, you took actions as the majority of collogues did.

    And yes I know....most physicians are that busy that they don't have the time to read the studies themselves...and most yes do not have a clue about drug development and preclinical studies at all. They mainly administer fully approved drugs which are established already...

    So it ended up in a vaccination hysteria, driven by MSM, with all the 'social issues' that followed, stigmatizing and exclusion of a new created group of lepers the so called unvaxxed....
    And then the day came where they 'authorized' the vaccines for people below 18 years..going down year by year until 5 years of age?....adding shot after shot.....4th?....

    People took the vaccine not for medical reasons anymore (those who did were already vaxxed at the very beginning), but to get back human rights!!! To travel, to have 'access', to continue work...to avoid that their kids come home and bring 'the disease' home as well...

    In the meantime...somebody like me 'appeared' (I am not the only one)...questioning many things from the very beginning. (As one can see at all the posts written)....of course with own ideas which turned out being different (mostly when I tried to get political, lol), but not scientific (I always presented sources which at least support a particular assessment).
    I asked myself...what should I do? Remain quiet? Seeking dialogue with friends? In the name of science or what science means for me I could not be quiet!.

    I actually only could 'lose'....now being a minority. Being against authorities' advice, being against majority of physicians, against opinions / assessments of most friends...and with the probability (even little) that somebody follows 'my' advise and the individual gets severe COVID anyway....we all know when we have 2 sides and one is most probable it does NOT mean the less probable cannot happen anymore at all.

    So it is actually very clear that sticking to the majority means staying in the comfort zone.:) Could have had that, too....but then I would have betrayed my personal relation to science.



    Many of my close friends did not. They vaccinated their kids anyway or got vaxxed themselves for irrational reasons...

    Some real examples:

    1 "My daughter loves judo, she cannot continue training if not being vaxxed. So she 'wanted' the shot"

    2 Yen:"You got COVID (alpha) already even being asymptomatic and you have ABs in your blood, why do you get your shots anyway?" Friend (scientist herself and a very clever person): "Because it is recommended".

    3 "I took the vaccine because I am sick of staying at home, having the cert allows me to go into restaurants and to travel....after the second shot I could not leave bed for 5 days, but now I am fine. It was worth the issues"

    4 Yen: "Aren't you afraid of vaccinating your kids, you know there were no kids included at the study where the vaccines got EUA?" Friend: "We as a family cannot go together then anymore to most activities...(he) would have to stay outside or at home. The kids of another family I know tolerated it well and there are no negative news on TV."

    Many friends asked me: Why should the majority be wrong and YOU are right? Or: Why should they 'do' that what you are blaming they for? (For instance hiding and manipulating results, study design, 95% 'efficacy' and the real meaning, issues with safety, impurities of batches, etc etc..)

    I said it's not about me being right. It's about either what I have got about science and my professional experience is completely wrong OR what is happening is wrong! It's violating of most I lived so far....it is sad and I could cry...12 years of development of vaccines are suddenly equally to one, genetic blueprints are suddenly vaccines, a tech never been administered to a mass public is suddenly old already and safe, purification processes which require years of perfection can be suddenly achieved within months (vaccine quality).....

    "I listened to your advice, read your posts, with many studies cited and didn't vaccinate my kids. Now, it's easier."

    It's all about to meet a decision which is based on solid foundation....nothing could be worse than to recognize later:....if I had known that already I had made the opposite...(and by that I mean known in advance what was available already, but suppressed)...
    It is simply a rational decision not to vaccinate kids with that COVID vaccines available. Nothing more nothing less.

    Actually there should be informed consent by the physician, but they cannot perform that.

    Sorry for the long post....I had the need to type that once...:D
     
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  17. Dark Dinosaur

    Dark Dinosaur X Æ A-12

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    This one broke me ;)
     
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  18. Palladin

    Palladin MDL Senior Member

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  19. Mr.X

    Mr.X MDL Guru

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    The expected number of background disease events during mass immunization in China
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23977153/
     
  20. Palladin

    Palladin MDL Senior Member

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    Well what do you know.
    How could this possibly happen??

    He is fully vaccinated and has been boosted twice. He is currently experiencing mild symptoms. Dr. Fauci will isolate and continue to work from his home.

    https://deadline.com/2022/06/fauci-covid-tests-positive-1235046333/

    .

    .