@Yen, we must UNDERSTAND and INTERPRET the DATA WE HAVE at hand. How on Earth can anyone claim to be God in that situation? I repeat: we must err on the side of caution!!!
I totally agree. But the official dashboards and mainstream media still do not. They still present 'raw' data and use those to justify arguments...from the statistical POV absolutely negligent God? It's actually all about choosing the lesser of two evils. The impact of corona is 'bad per se' for certain individuals... You cannot count only those who are physically dying because of it.....many existences are dying as well. For instance solo self-employed persons. Many businesses as well...not to mention the suffering due to isolation / restriction of social contacts / encounters...
In this situation i can understand that very many people are frightened , unsure and want reliable information . Standardised statistics and scientific method ......... so we can get an over view and see whats happeneing and what effect our safety measures are having . So that we can get politics out of this ...... but at the same time not give the scientific comunity unquestioned control ...... and stop confused people and vested interests exploiting the situation . The information comming from the RKI and Johns Hopkins university is a mass of statistics that are hard for anyone to put in place and compare ......... and its being teinted by politics . Looking at a problem with only one half covered eye wont work . We have to have a holistic aproach . ALL the facts on the table and then a public discussion . For some people that lack of coordinated information and confusion apears as something suspisious ....... and unnesecery . On top of that the press is spreading confusion and causing trouble twisting things . When we look at things rationaly they and what to do about them and the situation are crystal clear . Now we have a wonderfull situation .......... joe public has a computer ......... has been mentaly castrated at school ........ thinks that they have rights ......... think that they have something to say ......... and decide ........ but havent been trained to read and comprehend .......... and have been trained to worship their rulers ......... and they spread brain dead confusion ....... Problem = How to deal with a world population that has been bread dumb one generation after another for hundreds / thousands of years and believes in santa , jesus , democracy , 36 virgins , the tooth fairy ? = the thick peopel are in the way .......... How do intelligent people convince morons that they're morons ? ......... how to convince a person thats to dumb to understand that they are to dumb to understand ? ...... how does one convince a person that they cant drive a car ? = Let them drive it and crash it My opinion = We need reliable information and standardised measures and we arent getting them ........ and that frustrates me .
The lesser of two evils? OK, take this "under advisement", @Yen: "According to the national health agency, Sweden, a nation of 10.2 million people, has seen 4,542 deaths linked to COVID-19, which is far more than its Nordic neighbors and one of the highest per capita death rates in the world. Denmark has had 580 coronavirus deaths, Finland has seen 320 and Norway has had 237, according to a tally by Johns Hopkins University. “If we were to encounter the same disease again, knowing precisely what we know about it today, I think we would settle on doing something in between what Sweden did and what the rest of the world has done,” Tegnell, considered the architect of the unique Swedish pandemic approach, told SR."
"Maria Van Kerkhove, the World Health Organization's technical lead for coronavirus response, said during a media briefing in Geneva last week that "herd immunity" is typically discussed in the context of vaccinations -- not as a response to a pandemic. "Normally when we talk about herd immunity, we talk about how much of the population needs to be vaccinated to have immunity to the virus, to the pathogen, so that transmission can no longer take place or it's very difficult for a virus or a pathogen to transmit between people," Van Kerkhove said. "If we think about herd immunity in the natural sense of just letting a virus run, it's very dangerous," she said. "That means that many people are infected, many people will need hospitalizations and many people will die."" ...or... https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2020/may/23/sweden-covid-19-policy-model-for-right-also-a-deadly-folly https://www.businessinsider.com/sweden-opens-inquiry-into-coronavirus-strategy-of-no-lockdown-2020-7?op=1&r=US&IR=T https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-30/anders-tegnell-architect-of-the-swedish-model-coronavirus/12384966 https://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/articles/28759/the-swedish-model-is-a-failure-not-a-panacea https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2020/may/01/sweden-coronavirus-strategy-nationalists-britain The difference between Sweden and its neighbours is stark and undeniable! Your "guru" has failed you, @Yen!
F*** you all world! I'm self employed! I can't go out to make a living! This f*** lockdown is killing me and my family! We're starving. Food prices are rising. ISP monthly rent has increased since yesterday, damn all the owners and their families! Even if I go out there few buy my service/products. Some say they fear of getting infected from me. Some say their money/savings are less and less every day so first food. We're not dying from the disease but from the broken economy!!! No one help us! S*** this you cu***s ????
Sweden did it best from all European countries. The current death rate which belongs to the higher one is not significant to conclude a bad way. I do not follow a guru. I'm able to calculate on my own and to interpret statistical data. I do chemical analysis almost every day and I am well trained in general statistics. And even if you would take the death rate alone to conclude you have to determine a factor which is appropriate to give information about the 'national' progress of the pandemia. Sweden is naturally ahead (has already a greater level of endemic infection) and the major difference lockdown or not is no significant event on death rate (Italy, Spain and Great Britain are examples therefore). The WHO praised the Swedish way... You can simply say Sweden took suffering in advance to have benefit later. To make a final statement we have to wait years and then to compare. But recent research on mutations indicate that the mutations are weaken the virus and SARS-CoV2 is following its 'brothers' ..other beta corona viruses. There are more and more results about the D614G mutation and about the direction of mutations that it is weaken.... The particular D614G mutation is by far milder and the direction seems to persist. (BTW: Another point that indicates that rational thinking has gone at some people is to say mutation=getting worse) I even would say that I am afraid that all the money that has been put in vaccine development could be a waste that year when it can be safely released.....because then will be no need for it anymore. When the virus weakens then the risk / benefit evaluation of vaccination also changes. The same happened at H1N1 for instance. Short: Let's have a look at Sweden a few years later so we can have a final result.
O.K. I can't stand this bulls**t any longer. If some of those with any intelligence at all, would actually read what WHO stated about the death rates: Read this statement and know that the death rate is based on conjecture, no actual determination. This means that the death rates are a farce, based on "a guess" . I have family members that are nurses in hospitals here in the U.S. They know because hospitals are paid thousands of dollars for each patient they claim as a covid death. It is obvious that the death rates are fudged. 150K people die yearly from Flu and we do not do anything. I truly believe that these death rates for covid are exaggerated beyond what that the normal death rate is for the Flu. This is about the most un-scientific method of de-terminating the actual death rate of Covid 19. I am starting to think that the WHO is a politically based organization, Obviously anything they state is officially skewed, without a solid proof of death rate. I do believe that Covid 19 is a dangerous virus because I do know of people that have died from covid, but the media has gone way beyond of making this more than it really is. Wake up! Know that there is more political advantages into scaring the sheep than reality
So you @Yen are the most qualified person around here to speak and opine about corona data. Let's respect that...
I know this from the very beginning my friend. This plandemic never happened before in human history. Now turns out we have to accept it for the sake of our health and survival. This pandemic is plain raw bs.
It was a political based organization with the honorable goal to provide Health recommendation and assistance to the world population. Now it has been acquired by private corporations to make a buck from people's suffering. Read, Big Pharma, George Soros, Bill Gates, etc. We, the nations, need a new WHO with a real genuine social philosophy
"According to the national health agency, Sweden, a nation of 10.2 million people, has seen 4,542 deaths linked to COVID-19, which is far more than its Nordic neighbors and one of the highest per capita death rates in the world. Denmark has had 580 coronavirus deaths, Finland has seen 320 and Norway has had 237, according to a tally by Johns Hopkins University. “If we were to encounter the same disease again, knowing precisely what we know about it today, I think we would settle on doing something in between what Sweden did and what the rest of the world has done,” Tegnell, considered the architect of the unique Swedish pandemic approach, told SR." But you know better.... despite the obvious numbers showing quite clearly the difference... OKI... The criteria are the same for all, even allowing for variations from hospital to hospital and country to country (Belgium is the only country which counted all Covid-19 related deaths, even in old people's/care homes), overall, generally speaking they are the same for everybody. So, come again? BS? Nice... MrX, I am truly sorry you live in the country that doesn't have proper social security and you and your family are not taken care of - I wish all countries would get to a point of development where this would be guaranteed - but to mix everything in the same pot, the starters, the main dish, salad, dessert and drinks, coffee... - is not very productive....
Statistics itself belongs to maths. And maths besides of physics to the basic natural sciences. Statistics is rational and everybody involved in natural science has studied it. Anything is unified and determined. But the interpretation of data IS related to one's experiences and can become unscientifically 'coloured'.....I know.
Because scientists are humans before scientists, I understand. That color can be as green as in those green american currency bills. Lol
@Yen, statistics also presumes that the one interpreting a set of numbers understands the issues and asks the right kind of questions out of those numbers, that one can actually be sensitive to the issues belying the numbers....
Yes that's right. Sorry just got 'interrupted' by the sad news from Moria... The point also is what's the job of scientists and when the job of the politicians has to 'start'... In this relation I have a bit of a problem that here in Germany the politicians mostly get advised or the interpretation of data by one institute alone. Finally each nation has an own way to deal with national conditions which are unique. I don't know how it turns out in the future. I am no fortune teller. But for now I think the Swedish way should be kept in our eyes. ATM I'd say it is a good way to deal with. But of course I don't know for sure.
You are dead wrong! You can not be more wrong, actually! The UK gov is - yet again - forced to tighten the measures, introduce laws, enforced by police.... One step short of another lock-down! And almost everywhere, to the best of my knowledge, the numbers are rising, so given that the rather civilised and even-keeled, disciplined Swedes have FAILED - what on Earth are you expecting of any other nation???!!!!??? I agree with you that the legal and other questions are extremely important, that there has to be a serious effort to mitigate the measures for carers of elderly parents and kids with special educational needs, the needy and the vulnerable etc. etc. Of course we agree on those issues! But the overall priority must not be lost in all of that! Save lives, while we search for vaccine(s) and drugs to help against the virus!!! Do NOT hide the right-wing agenda under the alleged "dictatorial" approach to the pandemic!!! We must not be used as pawns in other people's rush to get ever richer! We must not be used as pawns in a political struggle for ever more power concentrated in ever fewer hands.
Eh what? Which approach is more dictatorial? The UK's or the Swedish? And who are the pawns? The Swedish citizens? No quite the opposite. They are treated as mature and responsible citizens who are able to think on their own! And pardon who has a greater death rate of those 2? 41683 vs 5842 (0.0625% vs 0.0571%) Please keep out that 'directional' right/left fuss! It's sad enough those right wing idiots have destroyed the demo in Berlin. Do you think the Swedish do not want to save lives at first place? They are following another strategy, that's all. And they are BETTER with that than the UK!!! You equate "to tighten the measures, introduce laws, enforced by police.... One step short of another lock-down!" with saving lives. But it's even that that's being on trial! As being said you are not able to conclude yet about the Swedish way. The pandemia is still in full progress. Why should I agree with another lockdown when the statistics here do clearly prove that it had no significant influence on infection rate? Get back to rational arguments but for now your statement that they have FAILED is pure irrational emotion...they have lost less lives than the UK has lost...
Me at 4/4/2020:...... It still applies... I am the same as I was on April...It's always about the 'right measures'...and a process of learning... The difference to now is that that time I thought we (Germany) are doing it perfectly right and I found the Swedish way 'dared'... Today I say they do it right and the lockdown of Germany was of no use. (But we could not know it better that time therefore it was no fault)...but we should learn by that...