Eh what? Which approach is more dictatorial? The UK's or the Swedish? And who are the pawns? The Swedish citizens? No quite the opposite. They are treated as mature and responsible citizens who are able to think on their own! And pardon who has a greater death rate of those 2? 41683 vs 5842 (0.0625% vs 0.0571%) Please keep out that 'directional' right/left fuss! It's sad enough those right wing idiots have destroyed the demo in Berlin. Do you think the Swedish do not want to save lives at first place? They are following another strategy, that's all. And they are BETTER with that than the UK!!! You equate "to tighten the measures, introduce laws, enforced by police.... One step short of another lock-down!" with saving lives. But it's even that that's being on trial! As being said you are not able to conclude yet about the Swedish way. The pandemia is still in full progress. Why should I agree with another lockdown when the statistics here do clearly prove that it had no significant influence on infection rate? Get back to rational arguments but for now your statement that they have FAILED is pure irrational emotion...they have lost less lives than the UK has lost...
Me at 4/4/2020:...... It still applies... I am the same as I was on April...It's always about the 'right measures'...and a process of learning... The difference to now is that that time I thought we (Germany) are doing it perfectly right and I found the Swedish way 'dared'... Today I say they do it right and the lockdown of Germany was of no use. (But we could not know it better that time therefore it was no fault)...but we should learn by that...
@Yen you seem to be for me a decent man and a honorable scientist (I didn't know you were until recent days lol ). Glad to know you are looking forward the truth, supported by science. Someday you'll find the truth about chlorine dioxide as well.
I don't have a doctor grade. I started as chemical laboratory assistant before the bachelor/master 'system' came to Germany. Internationally my 'grade' is comparable to chemical engineer. It took me 8 semesters more to get there...(The lab assistant were 3 years 'dual system' means school and company)... I am still a man of praxis actively in a pharmaceutical lab every day... and I actively train young people in a lab..once a year (10 weeks internships). BTW If somebody wants to get into details and wants to know what's 'Yen's' issues with the numbers from RKI feel free to read this. https://www.bi-scout.com/die-datenkrise-des-robert-koch-instituts Unfortunately not in English, don't know how usable a goggle translation would be...but this author Klaus Lindinger has made all the efforts and illustrates what I only briefly mentioned (Statistics).... The title is "Data crisis of the RKI"
Yeah, Swedes want to change their experiment as obviously ineffective and costly(!!! in Human lives), as opposed to their neighbours - and you now want... Achhh.... The UK also has to get away from "voluntary" and "self-regulatory" towards legislation and law enforcement - but you want to go down their old path.... And on and on... Sorry but...
This is what it boils down to: https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/...oronavirus-deaths-statistics-us-canada-europe 100.000 lives difference...
One more pearl: https://sirota.substack.com/p/bob-woodward-aided-trumps-crime-against Knew. Repressed. Aided and abetted. Shameful!!! Deadly!!!
La Paz, Bolivia Government promulgates law for use of chlorine dioxide. Thousands of people must be nuts, collectively, to put that into their bodies. Funnily no one has died or get sick being on years using it. Lol https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=463406154549868
Such a comparison of numbers is useless (it only illustrates that Canada and US are different but NOT the reason why). If your idea is to reason the difference with different politics then you have a hard job to do. It can be easily disqualified by different factors of societies. (population density, average age, medical capacities, medical condition of individuals, amount of super spreaders)... When you want to compare nations by success of measures then you have to observe the process of both nations in a diagram related to TIME and day of applied measure. When you spot a decline -of whatever factor you have chosen- WHICH can be related to the particular political measure, then you can speak of a success. And if you miss that decline at the other, second nation then you can say the first did it better... Trump has downplayed the corona crises and is anything else except a good politician. But I am sorry one is rather disqualifying oneself by trying to reason it by a simple comparison of death rates, a value which is itself NOT defined precisely and vague, yes even its definition and ways of how to count them has changed within certain nations during the pandemia...and besides of that the rate is related to many other factors... Before we try to find a responsible one, a person, we should get first what at all is possible to have an influence on the corona pandemia. With scientific evidence is social distancing and disinfection/'washing hands' of human contact surfaces. Distancing also means to isolate people of the same infection path. It is reasonable. You need to have conditions where a virus cannot jump from one individual to another. A distance of one individual to another, avoiding handshakes and the like. Just here a diagram which makes me conclude the lockdown in Germany was of no use. (Just to make clear my idea is not emotional)... Effective reproduction R = How many humans get infected by ONE infected person in average. 1= amount of infected people remains the same, infection is stagnating. <1 amount of infected people is decreasing >1 amount of infected people is increasing. 9/3/20 First event (grey box) Cancelling of huge events in different federal states. Anything above 1000 people is not allowed anymore. 23/3/20 Second event (orange box) : Lockdown has taken place. März=March Schwankungsbreite = range of variation So now interpret it yourself and get which measure did help in Germany and which not!
Nonsense! You keep avoiding the obvious all the time, ignoring facts that do not fit the dogma! For a scientist, this is inexcusable! https://twitter.com/danbloom1/status/1304401175060586496?s=19 This will show several things: Science doesn't deal in absolutes, like your guru. Therefore, the interpretation of data is not uniform. R value is put between 1 - 1.7 in 3 different studies. The cases are soaring and you want to do the opposite of what is logically and Humanly needed, following your guru's "lead"! The mind boggles sometimes...
International ALERT MESSAGE Of Health Professionals To Governments & Citizens Of The WORLD https://www.change.org/p/government...ssionals-to-governments-citizens-of-the-world
Coming back to your idea the forum could have been hacked. Are you the old gorski? The one who would be interested to find out which political measure had an influence on the pandemia? (This is a national thing, it differs from nation to nation). The one who explicitly would investigate if it really is justifiable to go again for a measure such as lockdown which is in conflict with any constitution either way and really should be only applied in emergency situations? The one who recognizes that a massive measure such as lockdown MUST come along with proof that it had a positive influence on the pandemia, before we can ever speak again about it? No? We are talking about a measure which OVERRULES the constitution. Put that leader stuff aside, please. I used the data coming from the holy RKI themselves! The real leaders here are the politicians who would not hesitate to apply again a measure which already had no impact on the pandemia at all. The virus was already 'inside Germany' the lockdown too late, the pandemia already under control. Previous measures such as restriction of events were responsible for that control, though. ALL the political measures have been applied related to statistics, yes even have been reasoned by statistics! Where have you been, gorski? Can we 'lower' already? Do we have to tighten? How will be our capacities? How is the virus? THIS belongs to statistics! Science does not deal in absolutes but a pandemia is defined! A pandemia gets its figure by statistics! And R is plain rational. A pandemia is under control when R is 1 or even below 1! This is common sense and even the nature of a pandemia. Can't you or do you not want to see that that what is "logically and Humanly needed" has to be measures that turn the pandemia to the positive / averts damages / saves life? (And not those leaving pandemia related values unaffected, but with lots of economical and Human-life concerning side effects)... "Things are getting worse (btw from where do you know that it is that way ..? Statistics! Right!)" Politicians used statistics all the time to justify their political measures. And after it the very same statistic should be 'suddenly' insufficient to indicate / prove that the measures changed nothing at all? That is not what's logically and Humanly needed! Either you take values for granted and reason your measures by it (as the politicians did) or you don't use them at all. But once taken for granted and as reason for a certain measure you have to 'meter' your successes by them as well. Otherwise you would apply double-standards. You take a statistical value for granted = making you saying it's getting worse. OK. Anything fine so far. But at the same time you would ignore that the measure which you would apply again had even NO influence on very same values at all! Why should it behave differently now? Gut-feeling? I guess not...it would be simply irrational.
@Yen very good this post of yours thanks for the brilliant elucidation of the facts that has afflicted the whole world
Put it in simpler words: - Humans throughout it's existence on this planet has always dealt with illnesses, and viruses of course. - Never ever before the entire planet was put in lockdown. - Never ever before forced use of masks which suffocate people. - And we survived and thrive. - On top of all this, we have institutionalized modern medicine, specialized herbs and non mainstream chemicals (chlorine dioxide) to deal with any pathogen.
I just want to add. What I wrote is related to Germany. Each nation is different due to factors I have mentioned already. But IMHO if one wants to make an opinion about a certain nation (maybe the own) progresses reflected in statistics should be related to applied measures. By that one can recognize what was useful and should be kept as being useful in mind, that's all. Also research on this locally how the virus spread is important. Generally it seems to turn out that to interrupt an infection chain 'at the end' (there where the virus would jump from individual to individual) is most useful, though.
How on Earth can there be an ESSENTIAL difference between Scandinavian countries?!? The differences there, though, are stark, depending on the public health policy taken. Even the infamous Swedish architect has now given up on his "baby" - publicly... Even he would now try to save as many lives as possible if knew now what he didn't back then, having opened up to learning from such horrible, deadly mistakes, as was his "strategy"... But many people here are NOT so open to learning from such horrible, deadly mistakes, as was his "strategy"... Because of a "conspiracy"... to save lives and not produce surplus value for billionaires and millionaires... Swell!!! @Yen, it would have been a fair question, had I not agreed that there are legitimate Qs about who makes the policy, how, under which conditions, how it can be improved, so old and vulnerable people are not unduly affected etc. But I have said openly that these are good Qs, so your "complaint" is not a valid one, knocking on an open door. The main issue being: do NOT jumble it all up and try to talk/think about all of them at the same time, as most people, you included, can not make the good, sound conclusions from such an attempt, as I demonstrated heftily in this discussion, given the fact all of such "contributions" openly and wildly evade any such serious problems quite mercilessly....
My 'complaint' was actually a defence. I do not feed a 'dogma' nor do I follow 'a leader'...'unscientifically'... I just wanted to make clear that if you take a certain statistic as reason for a measure then you should use that statistic again to have a look if it had an influence. This is common sense. By restrictions you 'moderate' the pandemia, the level of endemic infection. ATM we have only one way, though: self-recovery. The major reason to moderate the pandemia is to keep R below 1 AND too take care that the medical capacities get never exhausted. This is BTW the official announced goal that had been announced by our govt to justify their actions. So when I spot a measure, AKA lockdown Germany and neither the capacities where in danger at all at any time (not before and not after) and R was already below 1 then I must conclude that the lockdown was useless. This is no dogma.
You changed your position after listening to a "guru" who can't think for love or money - lets be clear about it. Your "strategy" is his strategy. And it is DEAD WRONG! Because it would cost tons of lives needlessly! End of...