My arguments do not disqualify what you say. And like I said situation in Germany is quite different.! We are even decreasing medical capacities here. (emergency beds/places and the like!). Raising values DO indicate raising infections IF you consider the proportionality to test rates. And in GB it is raising. The error rate has nothing to do. Those which are relatively uncertain are either way... And you say GB does not increase test capacities, so raising numbers anyway does indicate higher infection rate, yes. The coldhearted parts is...... I know that some suffer really and die by it. But how significant is it? (By significance I mean attracts attention compared to other life threatening 'events' in human life). It is not any different to the flu. And a special focus on it makes only sense when its significance would prevail! Stats are cruel, but sorry they are suitable to evaluate potential risk quite rationally. I do not want to get COVID-19, but when I get it.....hey...I expect nothing but a heavy flu at worst case. And yes complications are not excluded....This expectation is rational and not influenced by fear. I am no god that would have any powers to keep flu and corona away from us. We have to and are getting used by it. It is not the first wave of infections. People die.....and people who actually would not have to are dying anyway. Consider all those who die of starvation. And our 'individual impact' Gorski's and Yen's is not in any way different because I have a different opinion than you...or different because you seem to have more empathy for those who are dying... Your opinion does not save more lives than my opinion. It is opinion. Our impact on corona relies on how we behave in the society when we physically meet others..! Edit: I have practical experiences when I was 26... I once felt worse and worse day by day....my urine got brown..got fever, anorexia, stomach ache....nose bleeding. I was sent to medical isolation station. They said I probably got a strange virus. They took lots of blood samples.....said I have to wait until results are there. Could not sleep at all, felt really bad. The idea that I can die by it was already present in my mind... Then one night 'all-clear' signal! Had 'only' the Epstein-Barr virus and a heavy form of outbreak of symptoms with hepatic progress... ..after 5 weeks I could go work again. Long term effects on spleen took 6 months (size raised by 24%, swollen)...blood values were off 2 more years...erythrocytes (spleen) out of shape.
Yes, we can and we probably will, if these trends continue. @Yen, when I see this: "I do not want to get COVID-19, but when I get it.....hey...I expect nothing but a heavy flu at worst case. And yes complications are not excluded....This expectation is rational and not influenced by fear." I cringe! That is not the worst case scenario!!! You have completely blocked out the worst case scenario. That is NOT rational! And it is obviously a little dogma you probably got from your religious/"spiritual" leanings? It is obvious to me that you read nothing of my responses above or you did not take any of it on board, you do not understand it, you can't empathise with it and you surely are not thinking straight, if you are not afraid that maybe you could be one of 20%... After all, it is playing Russian roulette with your life/health. I am not that... "brave"... or careless, FTM... So, I refer you both to my earlier replies. All your "complaints" are negated there - not thanx to me but thanx to the front line workers, doctors, nurses, scientists, testing facilities etc. - information gathered in such a way is easily "wiping the floor" with your allegedly "concerned thinking".... Unless you are going to get a job in nursing etc. I don't really think your words can be takes seriously, quite frankly....
TED TURNER el fundador de CNN NEWS y perteneciente al club BILDELBERG, suelta con tranquilidad y prepotencia cuál es la idea de la Élite Mundial: Reducir la población mundial en un 85% Deben quedar tan solo 2 mil millones de personas y reducir la natalidad permitiendo tener solo 1 o 2 hijos y así durante 100 años al menos. Recordemos que CNN NEWS pertenece a TIME WARNER, de la cual, sus mayores accionistas son una vez más la familia ROTHSCHILD a través de sus bancos, fondos de inversión e incluso laboratorios. (También pertenecientes al club Bilderberg) y dominantes absolutos del mundo.. Casual o causalmente: CNN fue el primer canal de noticias por cable en dar la noticia de los Ataques del 11 de Septiembre en New York. La presentadora Carol Lin de CNN Headline News irrumpió un comercial a las 8:49 a.m. (hora del Este) para reportar en vivo de lo sucedido. Fue, tiempo después de este ataque, que esta familia de banqueros (Rothschild) se infiltraron, invadieron y se hicieron con los bancos centrales de Afganistán, Libia, Sudán e Iran, controlando así los bancos centrales de básicamente todo el mundo, Ya controlaban el resto.. Tan solo les falta controlar los bancos de Corea del Norte, Irak y Cuba, Prácticamente el mundo entero está en sus manos.. Y como nota, añado, que son los dueños de la patente de las PCR a través de ROCHE.. Y de multitud de laboratorios que están elaborando la vacuna.. Entre otras miles de corporaciones.. Cuando sucede algo , siempre hay que preguntarse: Quien gana con ello? Y vos estás esperando la vacuna ??? Despierta!!
BOLIVIA, CDS Primer municipio libre de COVID-19 gracias al dióxido de cloro. La COVID-19 ha sido controlada en el municipio de más de 35.000 habitantes gracias al uso del dióxido de cloro. Dra. Carla Carola Claure emprendió una lucha sin cuartel contra el COVID-19 en San José de Chiquitos (Bolivia). No hay duda la sustancia CDS ha funcionado Sin esperar a que fuese aprobado su uso por el congreso boliviano, la doctora se sirvió del edicto promulgado por su alcalde D. Germain Caballero para hacer honor a su Juramento Hipocrático: Salvar vidas. La tensión de principios de agosto, cuando la doctora presentaba su primer informe a la prensa, con todo tipo de detalles clínicos, hoy se ve recompensada; se quedan sin pacientes en la sala Covid, tan sólo quedan dos y serán dados de alta en breve. Aquí pueden recordar su experiencia. Mientras tanto, el alcalde Germain Caballero está siendo reclamado por multitud de municipios próximos y médicos de varios países para compartir la experiencia. No hay duda, necesitamos que se permitan ya los ensayos clínicos para el dióxido de cloro Es incomprensible que, viendo la evolución de la enfermedad en Bolivia, todavía los medios de comunicación españoles nos oculten esta información. En España, mientras televisiones y radios bien pagadas por el Gobierno, nos distraen con las cifras de contagiados que no enfermos, la sociedad civil de muchos países hermanos de América se están organizando para presionar a sus políticos, que cada vez tienen más difícil seguir los dictados de la GPMB (y todo lo que hay detrás), para que se permitan la realización de ensayos clínicos para esta barata y libre molécula. Sirva como ejemplo la sentada organizada en Argentina este próximo sábado 26 de septiembre, a la que nos animan para que sigamos su ejemplo en las plazas de nuestras naciones. https://ugena.eu/primer-municipio-libre-de-covid-19-gracias-al-dioxido-de-cloro/ Now, considering the anecdotic and clinical evidence of an entire town, tell me, rub in my face, put your boot on my throat, there is not an ongoing conspiracy vs chlorine dioxide hence humanity.
Honestly? You want saying me the worst scenario is that I die from it? OK. Yes. But what is different then to other things like driving a car? Maybe I die by car accident, maybe not. I posted that Epstein-Barr thing as an edit because I know very well (=empathy for those with the same 'destiny') what it means to get hit hard by a virus, being young and out of the wild. I could not be 'prepared' by reading statistics at all. Whenever I post you deny empathy of myself for another group of people. This time they are the nurses and medical personal... one of my best friend IS paramedic! And you reason it because I feel not the same fear /potential danger about COVID-19 than you. If I'd claim for agreement of anyone here I would disrespect the individual right for an own categorisation. That is by far not my purpose. It doesn't matter if you take me seriously. I have to ask myself :" Am I honest to myself with that statement? Or do I blow smoke on myself? Do I have fear and try to ignore/hide it? Do I underestimate the potential danger?" It has nothing to do with being brave at all. Being brave means to be strong towards a certain danger. But the real danger is uncertain and exists as an image obtained by derivations of probabilities and reports / cases about until it becomes true for one's own. And I do differentiate pretty well. My dad has got cancer. I take special care when I meet him! So I do differentiate when I meet other persons. I made this statement solely related to myself. To be responsible in my real life, to be aware of my actions in present yes belongs to 'my spirituality'. I try to enjoy the present, though. Regardless of COVID-19. Russian roulette? If I'd play it, everybody plays it (has to)! Corona is real and as dangerous as it is regardless of my thoughts about. 20% ? Do you want to be afraid of COVID-19 on purpose or is your mind already dominated by fear? 80% of humans get no symptoms at all or only mild ones such as 'common cold'. If your 20% are right then 20% of those 20% get severe progresses or whatever you mean. Its 4% of humans then. To be worried about to belong to those 4 % who will get hit hard is of no use. If it would be 20% it can be you. If it would be 0.1% it can be you. If it would be 0.000001% it can be you! It literally means: 4 out of hundred will encounter a severe progress. Nothing more, nothing less. COVID-19 is real and the idea about it has absolutely no influence on how a real infection would turn out. But it affects psychological condition of 'pre-COVID-19' life. AKA personal mental condition during pandemia. Since COVID-19 can turn out deadly it is of course related to spiritual meanings / belief. Anything related to fear of death is. You are not unaffected as well. I would pay very attention of your argument if I would endanger others life because of a careless behaviour of myself. But I am not like that. BTW: When does one play that Russian Roulette at all? Smoking cigarettes? Taking Aspirin? Drinking alcohol? Being one of the first getting vaccinated? When you are old and probably with pre-illnesses a flu can end your life. And COVID-19 also can. We're are in the middle of a pandemia. Lives are in danger, I do not rotate the turret nor do I pull the trigger. I have no info that would COVID-19 make me categorize 'worse' as a flu. And since I have no reason to get vaccinated against flu I'll have no to take the new one against COVID-19. But that opinion can change. I stay informed... Edit: BTW me on 14/03/20 already: (No one of your imaginary leaders or gurus have appeared there.) And please think about the role of the media. They are shaping how COVID-19 appears in our mind. Or make the mental experiment ....what would be COVID-19 without consuming any media. Only info man by man personally only. Can you without getting an emotion or opinion about my 'purpose' why I might have posted that? Purely experimental..
Anyone can answer my next question. What in this world could stop people discussing a dilemma such as @Yen and @gorski are doing?
It's actually not about resolving a dilemma. It's about 2 people and how they reflect the pandemia. For the reader it's perhaps something there where one can find oneself being understood....at the one or the other poster. or both.. For myself I find out how another one uses the data and makes own conclusions. I 'hear' other ideas.. I discuss that in real life as well. When you have 5 persons you get 5 ideas on how to handle it best and what's the actual danger.. But here I can understand in detail how one -gorski- is thinking. Or try to understand it lol... I do it out of interest and yea well.....getting soon back to post new scientific data as I did first...never had a pandemic before lol. learning something new...
I see here a dilemma: To accept institutionalized pseudoscientific recommendations or to follow well reasoned and scientifically discussed policies. Hint to answer my question above: bring to an end this virus and the pandemic.
OK, let's cut to the chase, for the umpteenth time... Let's "leave no stone unturned", right?!? Seriously? I mean, REALLY, @Yen? Jesus Marx wept... You have really taken leave of all your senses... OK, I'll treat you like an 8-year old child now because they pose questions like this one. Lucky you I am a teacher by profession... Here it is (are you really paying attention this time? - focus properly, Yen).... An oncoming vehicle one can avoid, since one can see/hear it, one is well aware of what is going to happen if.... We can all choose not to step before the oncoming vehicles, especially the speeding kind... On the other hand, no Human can "see" virus coming. Scientists and doctors etc. have THE DUTY to tell us about a virus coming and what to do, based on the principle "Do no harm"! Our "choice" is no choice at all, unless we are well informed, if not properly and fully educated on the issues and we start thinking critically, not just "right here and right now", like rats are doing trying to get to the cheese - but strategically, like Humans can, long term, even across generations. In other words, not just spatial but also temporal intelligence has to be put to good use! We do have it, we have that potential, unlike animals! Now, start thinking about it, don't let it fly over your head yet again, @Yen... I am sure you can do it if you exorcise the "good" Buddhist in you! Go on, try and you will see that you do have the capacity to understand this and then take it on board seriously! Just shut out the "good" Buddhist in you, at least for the duration of this mental exercise... You really need to go back and read the links I posted, as to what the virus can do to a Human Being. Then pause. Think. Seriously. If after that you come out and say "Never mind, let's go back to making money" - I simply can not take you seriously any more... Because such "thinking" bears no sign of empathy, no long-term thinking, no seriousness, as you do NOT understand the impact that your carelessness - translated into a Public Health Policy!!! - would actually do, what level of harm, to untold number of people!!! Because this is what you are NOW saying: "it is only 20% who will be affected". (Btw, we do NOT know this for sure, as we do not know the long term impact the virus might have even on the very young - and some populations, like in Florida, have been infected to the tune of one third of school children!!!) What you do not say OPENLY is "Why should the rest of us suffer because of them"? At this point I cringe, my head in my hands in disbelief!!!! At that point I am thinking "He is actually patting himself on the back claiming he is "empathetic", FCOL?!?!?! That's the underlying "argument". Not just yours, of course. You "picked it up". From the jolly "scientists", conservatives, from some who are religiously inclined towards "suffering", from populists organising such "protests", I mean, FFS, you even share such an "enlightened" stance with antivaxers and anti-immigrant right-wingers and so on and on, i.e. the worst kinds of populists.... Just so there is no misunderstanding! This is the context. Whatever lies behind their stance - things like eugenics, "we need a cull of Humanity, there are too many of us" and so on, any manner of nastiest sh&te one can imagine... Here the expediency presented by the virus "forces us" to quickly "forget" that there are other ways, that we have other options, even if we agree that we should carefully reduce our numbers and our impact on Mother Earth, that we can do that by a simple fact that we are mortal, that Capitalism is spreading and that it has the same effect everywhere (reproduction rate of less than 2 kids per family), that we can educate, we can invest in family planning.... Simply put: it is working everywhere around the world, if not as fast as the eugenicists want it but we are reducing our growth rate and we shall soon see a decline in numbers.... However, even if you are ready to put yourself on the line, Yen and co. - I am not! My kids are young, they need me. And I extend this stance to ALL HUMANS, regardless of differences. I want ALL to survive this pandemic!!! And here we differ! ERGO!!! All else being equal... You can NOT claim BOTH such "exalted" ideas ("eugenics is good for Earth", i.e. "let's go out and die in large numbers", i.e. "let's overwhelm the public health services, let's drive the medical staff to mental health difficulties, let's drive them out of the profession, others will step in, who cares" etc. etc.) AND in the same breath want to present yourself as "EMPATHETIC"! Such a stance has NO Humanity, no empathy and no long term strategy contained in it. This is the kind of DOUBLESPEAK I expect from the worst kind of Stalinist, Nazis, Eugenicists, populists, the kind of Huxley or Orwellian "Negative Utopia" double-speak that makes me cringe, @Yen!!! But NOT from you!!!! Not from allegedly empathetic and enlightened Scientists!!! I just can not believe you bought into it wholesale!!!! The main reason for it is: we DO have a VIABLE ALTERNATIVE!!! It's not as if we can not even imagine a different (real) strategy, as if we are not Humanity, with both the capacity to think long term, creatively and as if we already have not done so before!!! It is NOT as if we can not save Human Lives by waiting for medicine, for vaccine, for better science and tech, saving the good doctors and nurses and everybody in the front lines, as well as a lot of Humans who would have otherwise perished or at least suffered tremendously by "long Covid" and so on!!!! As if we are somehow pushed to do what you NOW want by DIVINE LAWS - and not because the billionaire bosses want to make even more money. We have put huge amounts of money forward to save the financial system but Human "capital" is so plentiful and unimportant (in fact "a burden") that we can not afford not to waste it in vast numbers because the billionaires and millionaires are losing money or as they euphemistically call it "businesses are suffering" (as if "businesses" do not have a component called "Human Capital" as well)... That is the context of such "thinking", this is the imperative "informing" such "thinking", its tactics. "Strategy" for such a "thinking" is a dirty word... The dilemma "health or wealth" is quite clearly no dilemma at all for such "Humanists" who want us to "just go on as before", just "carry on", as a terrible British comedy film series would have it... Except, this is much more tragic than comedic... Shame on all of you who.... Arrgghhhh!!!! Whatever!!! If only some of you did not "insist" how "empathetic" you are.... What a load of old cobblers...
Let's be honest. Instead of 1M species to go extinct, only single species needs to go extinct ... humans. Sadly this virus will not do it...
Alright, nobody answered. The answer is: a cure. Ergo chlorine dioxide is the cure. Pure and simple. No side effects. Easy to produce. Best of all, CHEAP. BAM!
You did not get why I mentioned 'car accident'. I took it as an example of 'events that can turn out deadly' (I drive every day) and so the worst case there is always that one could die by it. It is the general worst case per se of anything. Why should I pay special attention to COVID-19 in this regard, then? Yes the worst case is that one can die by it but is it no unique characteristic. I have no idea why I should differentiate probabilities to die by car accident or by COVID-19. You know the meaning of the term "accident" and that they happen actually every second on earth? Your post sounds like that 'what you can see and hear can be avoided'. What I do is to pay attention that I do not get involved in car accidents. Driving with care. And the same I do concerning COVID-19. I apply personal measures (especially social distancing) not to get infected and not to spread the virus. I take special care of the 'high risk groups'. It seems to me that you want to say that my opinion is responsible that COVID-19 has got its attributes it has actually got by nature. (The symptoms). My role in this pandemia is solely dependent on how I behave in real social life, though. Yes, I totally agree. No. I read your 20%, related it to the fact that 80% seem to have only mild symptoms. There is no *only* which I should have posted. Can I please just objectively pick up a number you have posted and objectively post what they mean? And can different people then subjectively relate them to another sickness like flu? By that I do not downplay COVID-19 at all. A real flu is a serious disease! You want something that is already not possible anymore. People have died from it. Do you really think that I 'want' that people die? As mentioned our role relies on how we behave in social life. To 'want' something that imaginary points on empathy to others does not turn into real empathy as long as one does not actively take care to apply own measures on behaviour that really saves lives. And here I am with you. I take care! And I do anything that I don't get infected / spread the virus. Anyway I can have my own categorisation of how it would turn out when I should get it. Perhaps I am utterly wrong. Perhaps not... This is far off. Sorry. You try to put me somewhere I would have never any affinity to and moreover it's not reasoned by any post I made.
@Yen you fell into a pink ball game and trust me, you are not one of the players. With all due respect. Geez