Coronavirus | Discussion

Discussion in 'Serious Discussion' started by luzea, Feb 28, 2020.

  1. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
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    @Yen: you just can not, for the life of you, understand the ABC of this problem - HOW MANY LIVES AND/OR HUMAN WELL-BEING (= BAD HEALTH) WILL THIS COST, IF YOUR "UNDERSTANDING" BECOMES PUBLIC HEALTH POLICY?!?

    Behind the numbers are Human Beings, their lives, their health, their destinies and your "Public Health Policy" would adversely affect countless people! In fact, this is what is going on in most places!!!

    BUT IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE LIKE THAT!!! As we can see quite clearly, from some of my posts!!!

    So, YOU ARE NOT "OBJECTIVE"!!!!
     
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  2. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
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    Leading "libertarian" wan*ers - dangerous people!!!

    Seriously, you should at least CRITICALLY inform yourself from different sources, FCOL....
     
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  3. Mr.X

    Mr.X MDL Guru

    Jul 14, 2013
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  4. Tiger-1

    Tiger-1 MDL Guru

    Oct 18, 2014
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    :rolleyes:
     
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  5. Mr.X

    Mr.X MDL Guru

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    #1225 Mr.X, Oct 14, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2020
    hey bro you look kinda silly with those rolling eyes. roflao
    What do you mean?

    You do that almost every post I do lately.

    Understand, not everybody thinks or have the same opinions about anything in life. It's good to vent your concerns so you don't explode at night in your bed...
     
  6. Tiger-1

    Tiger-1 MDL Guru

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    is simple friend, i am not possessed yet by any psychotic abnormality ok ;)
     
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  7. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    I try to post it from another perspective...maybe you can get me 'better' now.

    What if there won't be a vaccine that is able to protect humans 100%? (And reading the scientific works I also posted here makes me assuming that). Besides of that not everybody wants to get vaccinated.

    I expect one that comes with its own 'statistics'. Means something like: It creates an antibody level of X which is able to absorb a special amount of viral load Y at the first month after vaccination. This level X is decreasing soon to X2. By that the body can absorb a far lesser amount of viral load. And so on... And the vaccine has an own statistic of probable side effects Z.

    The next conclusion is: If you get a viral load that does exceed you current capacity of anti-body you get sick either way. You probably (at best) get a nearly 100% protection because the initial amount of anti-body is that high that a 'common' viral load will be easily absorbed completely. But that relationship is always changing to less protective abilities.

    The 'other thing' that happens is that people get sick by COVID-19. By that 'the second instance' the t cells get involved. And thank god they have a long time memory and they have learned already. (Without that fact COVID-19 would be really really dangerous)!

    As final conclusion a potential vaccination just adds another countermeasure with own statistics to delay reaching natural herd immunity and nation by nation has its own factor of delay depending on applied measures and available vaccines and their potential.

    Since the applied restrictions always come with huge impact on economy we cannot afford to repeat the same amount of restrictions all the time.

    The pandemic on its way will probably attract attention by peaks from time to time until it naturally vanishes in the background. But a 'vaccination day' would not determine its end.

    What makes you sure that this evaluation is wrong?

    (As being said. I do not advocate a health policy I try to evaluate)...
     
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  8. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
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    No, Yen, we do not function on "what if we can't" - that defeatism never led anywhere good!!! We are not animals, we are Human Beings, with creativity, imagination, Science, Technology, Politics, Ethics and so on....

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...tm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&CMP=GTUK_email

    Covid-19 may cause sudden and permanent hearing loss, experts have found, adding that such problems need early detection and urgent treatment.

    The coronavirus has been found to affect the body in myriad ways, from a loss of taste and smell to organ damage.

    Now doctors have reported fresh evidence that Covid could also affect hearing.

    Writing in the journal BMJ Case Reports, experts at University College London report the case of a 45-year-old man with asthma who was admitted to intensive care with Covid, ventilated, and given drugs including the antiviral remdesivir and intravenous steroids.

    A week after leaving intensive care he developed a ringing sound – tinnitus – and then hearing loss in his left ear.

    The team say none of the medications the man was given would be expected to cause damage to his hearing, while he had no problems with his ear canals or ear drums. Further investigation showed no sign of autoimmune problems, while he did not have flu or HIV – conditions previously linked to hearing loss. What’s more, the man had never had hearing problems before.

    Subsequent tests revealed the man had sensorineural hearing loss in his left ear – a situation where the inner ear or the nerve responsible for sound is inflamed or damaged. This was treated with steroids with partial success.

    The case is the first such incident to be reported in the UK, although a small number of similar reports have emerged from other countries.

    Dr Stefania Koumpa, a co-author of the study, said it is not yet known how Covid might cause hearing loss, but there are possible explanations.

    “It is possible that the Sars-Cov-2 virus enters inner ear cells and brings about cell death, and/or causes the body to release inflammatory chemicals called cytokines that can be toxic to the inner ear,” she said. “Steroids likely help by reducing inflammation and therefore production of cytokines.”

    Figure it out, Yen....

    I have asthma - plus I already have tinnitus :p - I am a bit overweight... I have 2 young kids who need me.

    Wanna play dice, wanna play Russian roulette with my life with your policies?
     
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  9. case-sensitive

    case-sensitive MDL Senior Member

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    @ Deep philosophie ---- >

    >Wanna play dice, wanna play Russian roulette with my life with your policies?

    And when it gets worse we come to a point where we cant afford to keep ill people like you alive anymore because your an unafordable cost factor and you take up health service capacity thats needed for essential workers and you cant expect the rest of us to put ourselves at risk by crippling our health systems and economy by keeping all ill people like you alive ? IF it goes on it will come to a point where ill people and old people will be asked to do their duty to the planet and volunteer for euthenasia ........ to take trhe strress offf and protect the rest of us ........ and only realy evil , arogant egoists will refuse to do their patriotic duty ......... and if we cant get enough decent people to do whats right we can still round them up and give them a neck shot .

    BUT ...... anyway ........ i dont understand ? ........ IF 3000 people a day have to die why dont we just round up 3000 useless people every day and give them a neck shot and voila !!! Problem solved and 3000 inocent and usefull people will survive !!!

    :)
     
  10. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    No, of course not.
    But can it be that you are (a bit) focused on negative reports about COVID-19? :p

    Well....I don't have something that I'd consider as pre-illness... no overweight--- my BMI is 22.8.....:p .... OK I do smoke from time to time....:D

    Anyway I try to post positive works. And when I post works about seroprevalence I do not want to propagate herd-immunity. Just saying we are closer to than we thought.
     
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  11. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    Can it get any more "negative" than REAL REPORTS on long Covid or even deaths due to Covid? Ach, these doctors writing obit... sorry, medical reports of... well seriously sick or even dead people.... Just focusing on "negativity" - they should be banned, really.... At least from the media - I mean, how dare they scare the population from going to.... makes us some profits, eh? Well, I never...

    Oh, sorry, what you REALLY mean is we SHOULD PLAY RUSSIAN ROULETTE with our lives by "focusing on rosy Covid stories"?!?!?!?!?!? Well, that's a novel idea, Dr. Yen - always look on the bright side of death.... and f*&% "Do no harm", naturally....

    In fact, as one explains neatly above: it is our patriotic duty not to be a nuisance and die, so others could live the same way as before and NOT having to contribute, as solidarity is soooo passeeeee....

    The lovely eugenics people, such a brilliant club of dearies...
     
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  12. Bat.1

    Bat.1 MDL Expert

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    So You stalking dis thread trying to catch one :dunno: Think one poster caught a dozen just in de last week and him was psychotic enough already :roflmao:
     
  13. Tiger-1

    Tiger-1 MDL Guru

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    baby stop talking s**t sorry ;)
     
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  14. vladnil

    vladnil MDL Member

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    This is the zombie TV generation. These are not people - a simple crowd for whom others decide.
    203111_6921ad01f31700ee2c013816d335c410.jpg
    203111_d7439081018620bba8e98d92f7dc68ac.jpg
     
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  15. case-sensitive

    case-sensitive MDL Senior Member

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    Hey cool !!! What about some holiday snaps ? ...... or pictures of cats ? .......... and an explanation of what you want to say ? Why you posted those pictures ?
     
  16. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    May 6, 2007
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    Either they are fact or they aren't. Are there lots of individuals who don't get any symptoms at all or aren't there?!?

    To associate works about seroprevalence to eugenics is just absurd.

    There is no 'human authority' that would have decided you have got pre-immunity but you (the other one) doesn't.

    It's a research on blood samples to have a look if there is any mechanism of immune defence to COVID-19 already.
    Maybe those have suffered much already from a former infection of a former coronavirus (what they maybe had experienced as a summer flu)!
     
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  17. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    #1237 gorski, Oct 16, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2020
    No, @Yen, you are dead wrong!

    This is not about "research/work" about seroprevalence but about what comes out of its findings!

    One more time, this is about a dangerous policy, a libertarian public health policy, which interprets the numbers informed by their world-view and ideology, where Human Beings are but tools, means to an end, you "calculate them" and you do not bat an eyelid...

    Like so:

    The head of the World Health Organization warned against the idea that herd immunity might be a realistic strategy to stop the pandemic, dismissing such proposals as “simply unethical."

    The head of the World Health Organization warned against the idea that herd immunity might be a realistic strategy to stop the pandemic, dismissing such proposals as “unethical." At a press briefing on Monday, Oct. 12, 2020, WHO director-general Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus said health officials typically aim to achieve herd immunity _ where the entire population is protected from a virus when the majority are immune _ by vaccination. Tedros noted that to obtain herd immunity from measles, for example, about 95% of the population must be vaccinated. (Salvatore Di Nolfi/Keystone via AP, file)

    At a media briefing on Monday, WHO Director-General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus said health officials typically aim to achieve herd immunity by vaccination. Tedros noted that to obtain herd immunity from a highly infectious disease such as measles, for example, about 95% of the population must be immunized.

    “Herd immunity is achieved by protecting people from a virus, not by exposing them to it,”
    he said. Some researchers have argued that allowing COVID-19 to spread in populations that are not obviously vulnerable will help build up herd immunity and is a more realistic way to stop the pandemic, instead of the restrictive lockdowns that have proved economically devastating.

    “Never in the history of public health has herd immunity been used as a strategy for responding to an outbreak,” Tedros said.

    Tedros said that too little was known about immunity to COVID-19 to know if herd immunity is even achievable.

    “We have some clues, but we don’t have the complete picture,” he said, noting that WHO had documented instances of people becoming reinfected with coronavirus after recovering from an initial bout of the virus. Tedros said that while most people appear to develop some kind of immune response, it's unclear how long that lasts or how robust that protection is — and that different people have varying responses.

    “Allowing a dangerous virus that we don’t fully understand to run free is simply unethical," he said.

    WHO estimates less than 10% of the population has any immunity to the coronavirus, meaning the vast majority of the world remains susceptible.
     
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  18. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    How about this:

    "Tim Spector, Professor of Genetic Epidemiology at King’s College London, said little attention was paid to the infected population who were not sick enough to go to hospital during the early days of the crisis - which was 99 per cent of cases.

    He said it turned out that Covid-19 was not just a bad flu, but in many people it behaved more like an autoimmune disease, affecting multiple systems in the body.

    Prof Spector said an app introduced by King’s College London and the health-science company ZOE received data from more than four million people."
     
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  19. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    #1239 gorski, Oct 16, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2020
    The President of the UK's Academy of Medical Scientists, Professor Sir Robert Lechler, has issued a statement demolishing the US sponsored Great Barrington manifesto on 'herd immunity' and infecting the mass of the UK population with #COVID19 https://no_short_urls_allowed/36NzCUb 1/4

    https://acmedsci.ac.uk/more/news/navigating-covid-19-through-the-volume-of-competing-voices

    Navigating COVID-19 through the volume of competing voices
    Friday 9th October 2020

    Our President, Professor Sir Robert Lechler PMedSci, gives his views on the reality behind the perceived ‘scientific divide’ and the increasing volume of the ‘libertarian expert’.

    Earlier this week [Tuesday 6 October] a group of scientists published an open letter, the Great Barrington Declaration, arguing against lockdown policies and for ‘Focused Protection’ of the vulnerable, while allowing for the rest of the population to operate as normal. None of us want to let the virus rule our lives, and I am acutely aware of the detrimental impacts that COVID-19 restrictions have on the nation’s mental health and economy, but this letter does not acknowledge that managing the virus is a near-impossible balancing act. It has gained a worrying amount of prominence and I am concerned about the public perception of what this document calls for. Below I address some of the main ideas put forward in the Declaration, and why they are untenable.

    The idea of selective protection of the elderly and vulnerable is unethical and simply not possible as there is no way to sustainably protect such a large group of people without imposing huge risks to their mental and physical health. Even if this were an option, and we were to shield the vulnerable from infection while letting the virus run through the rest of the population, we must remember that this virus is in no way benign for the young and fit. Yes, the elderly are significantly more likely to get seriously ill from the virus, but we have seen grave impacts across all age groups. We are also seeing an increase in cases of Long Covid, where people are suffering from persistent and enduring symptoms for months after COVID-19 infection, and we just don’t understand enough about this at the moment to even consider ‘Focused Protection’.

    On herd immunity, the current estimate of people who have been infected by the virus in the UK is around 8%. To get to herd immunity we would need around 70% of the population to have been infected with the virus. Not only are we a huge way off this but we now know that immunity to COVID-19 decreases over time, and that people can be re-infected with the virus.

    Our recent report on preparing for a challenging winter* highlighted the increased risk of coronavirus spreading when the weather is colder and people will be spending more time inside, which is likely to favour transmission of the virus. We are not far into autumn and we are already seeing a sharp increase in COVID-19 hospital admissions. When hospital beds and NHS time is taken over by care for COVID-19 patients, where do the heart attacks and cancer screenings go? We cannot stop the care for cancer, cardiac and all other patients, so we must reduce the number of COVID-19 cases to ease pressure on hospitals and allow vital routine care to continue as needed.

    Earlier this year when the Academy connected with older people and those who were asked to shield due to medical conditions, we heard how the pandemic had taken away their control of their lives, their care and their futures. For those in vulnerable groups the prospect of going outside, near people who may not abide by social distancing rules, was a major source of concern. Some wondered whether they might ever take public transport or visit town centres again.

    We cannot lock entire sectors of society away because others want to live their lives ‘as normal’. Neither should we expect younger or healthier people in the population to take a hit for herd immunity, especially when there is so much we are still to discover about the long term effects of COVID-19. We should not be making plans or decisions on how to control its spread behind closed doors in wood-panelled rooms. We must engage with people in the communities most affected to make sure that no decision about them is taken without their input.

    With COVID-19 being the biggest issue our society faces, it is easy for advice from credible experts to become politicised. Scientists bear a strong responsibility here and must work to ensure the public not only have access to the latest reliable evidence, but have been involved in how that evidence was produced. This is particularly true if the views they are sharing could be used to undermine public health measures. Extraordinary claims about COVID-19 measures should only be made with solid evidence and a large amount of certainty.
     
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  20. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    #1240 gorski, Oct 16, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2020
    One more time, let's clear the notions properly:

    "Maria Van Kerkhove, the World Health Organization's technical lead for coronavirus response, said during a media briefing in Geneva last week that "herd immunity" is typically discussed in the context of vaccinations -- not as a response to a pandemic.

    "Normally when we talk about herd immunity, we talk about how much of the population needs to be vaccinated to have immunity to the virus, to the pathogen, so that transmission can no longer take place or it's very difficult for a virus or a pathogen to transmit between people," Van Kerkhove said.

    "If we think about herd immunity in the natural sense of just letting a virus run, it's very dangerous," she said. "That means that many people are infected, many people will need hospitalizations and many people will die."


    I put it to you once again: scientists, sadly, are frequently NOT properly trained in either Logic or Public Health Policy, many are almost autistic, if not sociopathic and can't see Human Beings past the numbers for love or money. They are frequently the most dangerous people, with such tunnel vision!!!
     
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