@gorski It is about the proportionality of the means used. And how they are used. Your idea and concerns about victims is absolutely right, that's not the point. And it's about the effectivity of the means: Study: https://www.nber.org/ https://www.aier.org/article/lockdo...nsmission-rates-or-deaths-new-study-suggests/ Do you know streptococcus pneumoniae? It's the bacterial agent that can be reason for pneumonia. Here in Germany (as example) more than 500000 get ill every year, 35000 are dying. If you would now develop a test and would do the same (ab)use of testing and diagnostics and the same great amount of testing you would CREATE a 'pandemic' which is 4 times deadlier than COVID-19. We HAVE agents around us which are causing a far greater impact on mortality. Sad, but true. But now the numbers of COVID-19 are here that people can pick up something to distract and to have something to act out fears.... We need means that put COVID-19 in a right direction to get a proper relation of the sickness. And we need to stay conform to proper science. We need to stop mass testing. We need to protect the vulnerable people and we need to isolate the virulent persons and to track infection paths (the paths of the virulent people). We need to 'integrate' COVID-19 so we can live with it the next months, years. We need to return to proper diagnostic. Somebody gets sick, goes to the doc. The doc uses an approved test as diagnostic means, determines COVID-19 and THEN isolates and reports the person. We need to care of each others and apply rules of proper hygiene. We need to take care of the vulnerable people. Unethical is to pick up something, distort it by abusing diagnostics and to do more harm on people caused by the measures (freedom, social life, psychological impacts, income, job, development of kids, educational system, delayed surgery, occupied resources at health system, battered economy)...while lots more are dying from other pathogens. Unnoticed by media, unreported and uncounted by numbers on dashboards.
There is no "proportionality" in death and illness, man... You bought a libertarian poison wholesale, FCOL. Legitimate issues of caring for those in vulnerable positions is used as a smokescreen behind which they would actually sacrifice all of them in a heartbeat! It's really sad and maddening how so many of you can't see this....
Because you want to sacrifice my right to freedom. I rather die free than frightened by a virus. If you and others want to be terrified go and lockdown yourselves.
No, I would rather lock you down, if you want to infect me and mine... Because I do not want to infect you and yours!!! And I will act in that manner! So, go figure....
If your wearing your mask and doing sozial distancing whats your problem ? So frightened you want to give other people orders ...... allthough you wear a mask and do sozial distancing ? ....... so ...... at least in your theory you cant get infected ? .......... so ...... whats your problem ?
If your wearing your mask and doing sozial distancing whats your problem ? So frightened you want to give other people orders ...... allthough you wear a mask and do sozial distancing ? ....... so ...... at least in your theory you cant get infected ? .......... so ...... whats your problem ?
I have none but I can see how you have several... FCOL, this is ABC, put your thinking cap on, man!!!
What's that for.... a NAZI ideology? And how do you recognize that 'he' would infect you? The potential allone? Denunciation as prophylaxis? When you notice that he's not following the rules? Thank god you have not the powers to lock others down...and if you could I would defend myself in case of need by physical violence. It's unbelievable how far single individuals would go to defend a mass hysteria. I bought nothing. I have reasoned my ideas and posted sources. You would everybody consider as expert that feeds your fears.
I think common sense is that a virus that has an infection period of x time can be stopped by having the infected quarantined for x period of time. How you go about it would be interesting. You can take the China policy and forcibly lockdown everyone. But non communist societies can't do that as effectively. As @Yen said he would resort to violence in that situation, which is pretty much what we're seeing now in some places. So I'm interested in hearing how you can contain a pandemic without stepping on people's freedom !? How do you find the middle ground and not be offended by a store whose policy is mask or no service!? Yes it is your right to choose not to wear a mask, but it's also the right of the employees to not want to serve you for fear of infection. Irrelevant of what the mask can and can't do. There is a quote by Mark Twain that I think can be modified to fit this situation.
Put things into context(!!!) if you want to understand them!!! He wants "complete freedom" to do as he pleases, regardless of anything and anybody. Hence the need for government, to protect us from each other. So, you really do not understand anything when it comes to ABC of politics. Not with this kind of libertarian world-view and ideology, you do not! Combine it with "herd immunity" and one immediately notices the closeness to eugenics with notions leading to "cleansing" of the "greater body", i.e. "herd" (us being nothing but the overseers' livestock) and you are beginning to realise where all this is leading to! But not by me and those who are NOT subscribing to this BS "idea" that stems right out of eugenics theories!!! Those who are advocating "herd immunity" are, perhaps sometimes not even realising what they are talking about! But they are! What, it's too hard to figure out that if he wants to move about without a mask, not respecting elementary rules of conduct in these situations, wanting to behave in any way he wants, whenever and wherever he wants (because he wants not to have to adhere to laws so he can "go out and make money"), he is potentially dangerous to others around him? Have all of you libertarians gone doo-lally?!? You are putting yourself and your family's in jeopardy, too, FFS - not just "everybody else" (who you couldn't care less about, obviously!!!! What the hell is wrong with you lot?! Not even a minimal common sense, let alone Reason!!! I would act as necessary. Example: if I see idiots going to a store and licking their hands and touching everything - I would report them! This happened in the UK, btw! Chew on that a bit. The store had to close down for a whole day, in order to disinfect everything. So much for idiots who take their liberty as far as they want to.... Because the others are "oppressing them"... Never heard that your freedom and your liberties must be tempered by freedom and liberties of others? Jesus Marx wept!!! Some brains, some solidarity, some empathy!!! Your words actually seem like verbal "prophylaxis", to be honest... Actually, it's unbelievable that you lot fell wholesale for an utterly conservative BS ideology and actually a dangerous dogma, when taken literally, as one can easily see here!!! But you are insisting on something that has no grounds whatsoever, on any level! Therefore, it is dangerous!!!! Yes, you did and you have no idea what you are talking about. And that is potentially bad!!! On the other hand, you have tons of reasoned positions that are showing right through your little newly acquired dogma - but you are simply ignoring it all, wholesale. Because, you found a new faith... @Yen, numbers are rising everywhere where strict quarantine is not implemented!!! Hospitals are overwhelmed! Staff are beside themselves! They are exhausted, many are developing emotional problems, they need help from us!!! Many doctors and nurses are actually off duty with infections, sometimes they must close whole wards, send patients elsewhere because of it. Have you EVER EVEN GIVEN THIS A SECOND THOUGHT?!? And I did warn about it here, not once! We have ever more reports about that! Are you going into nursing, will you help? No? Well, then, stop talking rubbish! R must go down by stronger, more stringent measures! We do not have the capacity for a free-for-all behaviour!!!! First, I am not sure what to make of this - grammatically speaking, you made a right old word salad in that sentence... Secondly, I can discern which ideologies lie behind various "theories", unlike you, so I can do it critically, unlike you, since I am trained in precisely that! Perhaps you would do well to start noticing and asking pertinent questions about that! You know, like I ask you when it comes to specific chemistry issues. I listen to you then. Unlike you now!
I posted the option of physical violence to the construct that a single individual would gain powers to lock me down because of his/her 'thought' I could be virulent without to really know it. This is a total theoretical case and not about wearing masks. I never ever was involved in a physical fight in my life, but at this case (when it affects freedom I would 'access' it).... Only somebody who is virulent can infect others. And since nobody can see that, anything else that is negatively assumed is plain denunciation. My grammar is sometimes not the best..sorry about this. Just wanted to mention that you have prejudices against studies that question your idea. And I bet this one I have posted belongs to them as well.
Here it is, once again, your "leading" libertarians and how they hypocritically protect themselves hefitly, while they spend a lot of money trying to force the government to send everybody back to their factories, offices and so on, while they themselves, "out of abundance of caution" bunker down safely!!!! Koch Industries network is your "leading light", whether you know or not and this is how they operate... https://theintercept.com/2020/03/26...mjptg7u5vcSijo-R18YqctnfI1-g6HtSvxI9VydMXUgmM "The Koch network, while pushing for businesses to stay open, is taking the opposite approach for its lobbying apparatus. AFP and its affiliates, including LIBRE Initiative and Concerned Veterans for America, are now working from home. “Out of an abundance of caution and to ensure the health and safety of our activists, staff, and voters, our staff are working from home and are utilizing digital organizing as one way to continue their grassroots engagement,” a spokesperson from AFP told CNBC." Sickening!!!! And you are putting all your eggs in THEIR basket! WTF?!?
>First, I am not sure what to make of this - grammatically speaking, you made a right old word salad in that sentence... Again you useing your ignorance as an argument in a discusion thats over your head . Hes trying to comunicate with you respectfuly and with good manners and you answer with ignorant verbal faschism . Maybe go back to your tutor at university and ask him / her to explain basic philosophy to you ? Morals and ethics ? Objecvtivity ? Neutrality ? Differentiation ?
And twisting my words....I clearly posted proportionality of the means...and I pointed to other infections such as pneumonia. If you'd be conform to what you say, you have to announce more pandemics and do the same to protect the people. At best to lock anything down that no infection can happen at all ...
No I'm not potentially dangerous cause all around me use their muzzle and keep distanced. I never go out not now and before this plandemic to do whatever I want, just my work to get some money for a living. Remember, food stores don't give away food actually they rose prices, and services bills. If I don't get money me and mine are gonna die anyway and for sure. The f virus? Well I'm using a cure so it will never kill us. Go figure.
As I told you, X, your state should be taking better care of you - they are not protecting you properly, that's for sure! Forcing people to go out and expose themselves and others to this risk is nuts and it's dereliction of duty (by the state)! CS - you understand nothing! Yen, what does " proportionality of the means" actually mean? But this time be precise, please! And do not compare completely different things, please! This one is frequently behaving like an autoimmune disease and it's really infectious, deadly or debilitating even to the young and fit, so choose carefully - and let's see then.... One thing is for sure, in that case - you will not be twisting my words, as you just did....