Easy: You take the recent proportionality of means at COVID-19 as basic and do apply the same proportionality to other pathogens / viruses / bacteria that are floating around. In detail: You develop a test for the pathogens and do the same amount of testing. You create dashboards for it so that people can stare on the numbers of 'infections'. You would get the same shocking dynamics when a raise is rolling. But what is 'the difference'? Total number of infections and fatality rate. That's the reason why it would make no sense to record the numbers of infections of rhinoviruses, to apply measures such as lockdowns and to isolate people. Rhinoviruses are simply not that fatal, but very very infectious. (Almost every adult on earth had multiple infections already). But now we -humankind- have other pathogens as well. I have picked up pneumonia. Applying the same proportionality of means to it it would 'create' an 'impression' that is far more frightening than COVID-19. You would have numbers exceeding those of COVID-19 by far. 500000 sick people (not infected people) each year 35000 deaths (3-5% mortality rate). COVID-19: 373167 infections (not sick people) / 9836 deaths. I took those for Germany. And please don't say pneumonia is more harmless. You die a wretched death by choking. What I said now is that we have to care again about the proportionality of the means. This means COVID-19 has to be integrated and returned to 'common' proportionalities. When a new virus is spreading and you cannot make an opinion about fatality you also cannot know which means are appropriate. You have to do anything against it. And test what you can..... But know since we know more about COVID-19 and the fatality rate it is among 'common' pathogens that causes more or less fatalities. We need to return now back to proper diagnostics and give up mass testing. It is not reasoned anymore! My condolences to those who are abused as guinea pig 'voluntarily'....assuming you are talking about mRNA based vaccine. It's bold that such a new kind of agent can already be tested at humans without to have gathered enough results at animal testing... It should alarm you. I know what you have posted about Grünenthal / Thalidomide. There is a valid scientific concern I have posted already (how CD4+/CD8+ cells recognize corona viruses and fight / kill them)....before I did know that I had another opinion about human trials and the sense of mRNA based vaccines and my spirit of research dominated...but not today anymore...
As you should. The numbers are rising, not falling. Worldwide! Reality check for Yen. On top of that, we are not testing enough so the real numbers are bound to be higher, probably much higher. It seems we can get reinfected and the second time around one might NOT get off so easily... Many people did not go to a hospital, did not report it. That means silly straightforward statistics alone is inadequate to address the issues!!! Medical staff are also getting infected and dying in many cases. Many are at least emotionally too tired to continue. And what is Yen advocating? No restrictions, i.e. worse run on the hospital's, ever more infected, debilitated or dead people... The mind boggles, the soul shudders... The fact we have other diseases which may or may not be worse in terms of death rate is quite silly. "Oh, we are not doing the same for y, so why are we doing it for X?" Seriously? FCOL!!! Instead of strengthening our efforts in both directions he wants to do the opposite... Where is QAnon to bitch about a nasty conspiracy when there is a good reason for it...?!?!?
You still don't get that the numbers you are relying on distort the impression of the pandemic even because the test rate is that high! We here have 20 million tests already, but a positive rate of 1.9% only. At flu 17/18 we had a positive rate of 40% and a few 1000 nds tests only. Proper diagnostic here! And besides of that. The more you test the more are counted as COVID-19 deaths. In other words: COVID-19 has no other chance to appear 'that dangerous' when applying such a high rate of random tests, any other infection would behave the same way! Where is your rational mind? Our society cannot stand the measures we recently apply to COVID-19 that long time as I assume it would last. They are based on an irrational high test rate far off from proper diagnostics. That is result of my evaluation. And I am not alone. It hurts any understanding of proper science. Can I do please, without to be considered as corona denier?!? And :"Why don't we apply the same proportionality of means at pneumonia?" Is a valid question. The topic here is a superlative: A pandemic. So it should affect superlatives. Pneumonia is more dangerous and unconsidered. Why? And what would we do if a 'real' dangerous virus is spreading? Such as MERS and Ebola? I don't want to do the opposite. I want to do the same, based on reason. I think we sooner or later have to return to the same way of diagnostics. Diagnostic which is conform to proper science! BTW: I have to stop to do my internship in the lab with my young people. At the entire class there is one COVID-19 positive. The entire class has been sent to quarantine. I did a voluntary COVID-19 test. I am negative, but I am now jobless in this regard... Will return to the research lab tomorrow. Continuing my work there. Internship has been interrupted. Keep you updated.
Yes, as per usual, anything that doesn't fit your newly found dogma - you ignore... And the numbers keep rising and rising... Never mind...
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/hea...ronavirus/coronavirus-disease-2019-vs-the-flu Lie. This is the supreme lie they have successfully crafted to condemn all humanity to a lockdown. Damn be their souls and their ancestors and their offspring.
Indeed! I keep posting these facts but... The numbers I have found recently indicated greater than 5 times (COVID over flu) mortality in the USofA and 3 times in the UK... Obviously these were conservative estimates by comparison with what you found - but "who cares for numbers and facts" attitude is so much easier when you have an axe to grind or some kind of little dogma (for comfort, like a favourite blanket without which a kid can not fall asleep...)... A Hungarian doctor who insisted on washing hands before dealing with women giving birth was driven to suicide by the "who gives a damn" brigade, laughing in his face, even though he reduced mortality to almost zero, for instance... The numbers are relentlessly going up but some here decided that's all irrelevant, as is severe suffering of so many around the world - because their understanding of testing and methodology is "flawed"... Jesus Marx wept! It can not be "perfect" but that does not invalidate so much suffering around the globe - and yet....
These are no facts! This is the only sentence you have to read there, says all. "COVID-19: Complications including long-term damage to the lungs, heart, kidneys, brain and other organs is possible after a severe case of COVID-19." Speaking of long term when there is no long term available? Ridiculous! And also ridiculous to say COVID-19 is more dangerous. You compare to flu which can be vaccinated to get at least a protection of ~30%. I have already illustrated what's the main difference in diagnostics. We never had such a high test rate at flu. And still here 10000 versus 25000 mortality rate compared to 17/18. And also to compare a certain virus SARS-Cov2 to a general sickness clearly indicates poor science and a bad source posted. Flu is a collective of many different kind of viruses (influenza A,B,C categorisations) When our workgroup publishes own scientific works in such journals we have to stand validations and we usually pass after first revision. It is tedious to explain the very basics of proper differentiation based on scientific knowledge. And I mainly post from scientific journals with best reputation. Your clearly soak up reports that are demonizing COVID-19. Something is wrong with your rational mind. Almost seems like being paralyzed.....
@Yen, the numbers are actually much worse! But you do NOT know them! And you have the arrogance to behave as if you do!!! Look here: https://www.theguardian.com/comment...itain-nhs-corporate-executives-test-and-trace - this is how you fight the libertarian mantra, this is a real critical approach, as opposed to your clueless libertarian "gurus"...
Is it? This morning a lady phoned into LBC radio programme, she got C-19 at an airport, where 7 flights from Wuhan arrived on 22nd of December 2019. She is still ill, can't find the right words, she is constantly exhausted, her symptoms are changing constantly, she can't go back to work, she is left alone, even her family, listening to the likes of your gurus, has abandoned her - and she was some kind of an executive, not exactly the kind who would not want to go back to her exciting career, high earnings, good quality lifestyle... So, that's long term to me. Covid-19 caused! Worse still, in some people this might only get worse with another infection. Call this not C-19 related... The R29 link also speaks of C-19 lingering nature - but you ignore it. In fact, you ignore EVERYTHING that doesn't fit your newly found dogma! It is getting tiresome to have to post ever more evidence when you are so bloody stubbornly turned to being a believer, rather than an inquiring scientist, fuelling others here posting utter rubbish!!! Oh, you mean that estimates of 3 -5 time greater mortality of C-19 than flu has been lost on you (the article R29 posted was actually much less "generous" - 10 times it states) - or are you now getting into a really silly tantrum, like a child who lost his toy due to being too vehement while playing with his new hypothesis and now wants others to undo what he has done? As in, we should bow to your superior capacity of ignoring evidence, just so your gurus (and you with them) could be "right"? Nice... All that despite evidence to the contrary, numbers rising everywhere... You mainly report from somebody else's brain, when it comes to C-19! Their understanding of statistics is marred by their general world-view and not having a clue as to how their understanding should be transposed into Public Health Policy which is based on "Do no harm"!!! Says a man who is demonising people who report factually just how dire the situation is... WTF?!? Something is wrong with your scientific credentials! Either you understand that science must be open to constantly emerging, new evidence or you are not a scientist but a theologian!!! https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...0000-excess-deaths-in-us-spain-nears-1m-cases Here is yet another example of BS "mindset" that allowed for C-19 measures to be removed so they could have a tourist season (economy is much more important that health or even life itself!!!) and then... Moreover... They are all wrong, they are all inventing things, eh?!? Just how much "faith" in your gurus do you have to be able to block out all this evidence?!? What will it take for you, how many deaths, nasty reports, suffering will it take for you to actually start thinking and feeling at the same time and question your gurus' understanding and interpreting of obviously PARTIAL STATISTICS?!?
Evidence? You are simply posting what's going on. All of those rules are mainly enacted per edict by suspending the constitution. And all the rules are lacking any base of evidence. They are applied without to really know their effectivity. This fact more dangerous than COVID-19 itself. I would not even put 'evidence' in my mouth at the NBER study saying.."Lockdowns and Mask Mandates Do Not Lead to Reduced COVID Transmission Rates or Deaths, New Study Suggests" (https://www.aier.org/article/lockdo...nsmission-rates-or-deaths-new-study-suggests/) And which number is greater: 10000 or 25000? Sorry to say flu17/18 caused still 2.5 times more victims here. And when you point to certain bad situations at hospitals and exhausted personal, then please relate it to other high seasons and go figure if their recent conditions are extraordinary COVID related and not reasoned by bad public health politics before. Caused by the responsible 'trained ones' you do glorify as people who know their job.
Questions at all ---- > Instead of endless verbal acrobatics in downward spirals why not get your positions clear ? Instead of talking about what is and how you see it and complaining . Tell us what you want ? How would you deal with the situation ? What precations ? Enforcement ? Lockdowns ? Curfews ? Punishments ? Essential workers ? ...... In as few words as possible please
You already know each position of everyone here. Come on you can even make a summary, read old posts.
@Yen, yes, "what''s actually going on" IS evidence! Only a religious dogmatic would claim otherwise... Makes you think.... or not... probably not in your case.... But you were not like that always, so such a weird experience.... For starters, you should make certain distinctions between political side of the phenomenon and the medical side of things, so the 2 sides of things do not pollute each other... First one needs to understand what's REALLY going on medically and scientifically and then what can/should be done about it... You are polluting the first with the second, while raising some valid questions. But your methodology sucks!!!
I don't know. To my understanding it's reality what's going on, not evidence. My concerns are huge, that's why I have the need to talk about. Since I live here we never had such a politics which is dangerous and far off from reason. If that isn't stopping not the virus will kill us, our politics will kill us. The real illness is pathological fear which is undermining democracy. The politicians do not act with reason, their idea is scaremongering. Speaking of methodology. Have they ever tried to make the efforts to validate their base of arguing (AKA numbers of infections)? No! It's like you want to know how many people do weigh more than 100 kilograms BUT your scale is neither calibrated nor validated! Anyway you force them above 100 kg to lose weight! If they want or not! AND based on such values you enact rules which are suspending constitution! Are you really aware of such a mess and what it means to all those representing serious science????? They have defined artificial thresholds for different states of lockdowns. Here in Germany it's the number of infections per week and per 100000 citizens. They have introduced an 'unit' without any scientific relations. No! Out of the wild! And they ignore any scientific criticism! They even put us to a group called corona deniers! This pathological fear is much more infectious than COVID-19. The people let lock them in, they accept further lock downs. They cry for a draconian hand which will save them. Therefore they are willing to sacrifice freedom. Have a look at New Zealand. The nation with massive lockdowns. Jacinda Ardern and their historical election victory. The people there still seem to think when they sacrifice their freedom they can save their soul from the virus. They vehemently defend their identity with a scared ego, rational arguing could kill it. That's the reason why they ignore it and turn to news which feeds the identity with a scared ego. They sell their idea as social and caring idea, but in fact they are solely ego related. They don't want to give up their pathological fear. And they want to present an illusion of political strength against the pandemic. Almost every politician here in Europe sufferes from it. They still don't have forums where different professionals can discuss different approaches. The RKI has the monopoly on wisdom. When politicians turn to the public they always do the same. They say: If we do not this or that ...then anything gets far worse. Have a look at the numbers! Do you want to be the one responsible for a raise? But any rule enacted is lacking of evidence-base. If you compare nations such as France with a more serious lockdown to Sweden you can notice that IF a raise is rolling a lockdown does nothing. NBER study suggest that, too. This is NOT the way of sovereign politics! This is helplessness of one that cannot think clearly anymore. It is dangerous! Things get distorted. Facts are torn apart out of context and out of relations. I simply want that they return to reason. I want political and open forums where different pros can discuss and find a consensus for the next months, years where we can live WITH COVID-19. I want that politicians stop their scaremongering by focussing the people on numbers of infections which say nothing about illness. I want that they are open to scientific criticism. I want that they validate their strategy and by that the way to categorize COVID-19. The general media shares fault, too. They support that tearing apart and putting out of contexts. For instance the shocking pictures Italy, New York....not informing that their capacities were almost exhausted before already and at each high seasons of viral infections the same situation mostly reasoned by bad health politics before....and so on. This is NO proper journalism, this is sensationalism. Shame on you! What we see here 'what's going on...the reality' is the psychodynamic of pathological fear. Inaccessible to reasonable debates and criticism. Unable for self-reflection. Germany should know from history what such a dynamics is able to do...especially at periods when the constitution was partly suspended.
Thank you Yen . I agree . >You already know each position of everyone here. Come on you can even make a summary, read old posts. Yes ....... and thats why i asked ........ because its obvious that not everyone taking part in this ' discussion ' is doing that ....... and ..... IF they made their positions clear they couldnt keep changing them ?
OK, let's not beat about the bush - this is what "freedom loving" people do at the extreme end, which ANYONE can instantly see: "#JusticeforBellyMujunga 0:00 / 0:52 Bell Ribeiro-Addy MP Shared with: Public Belly Mujinga died from #COVID19 just days after being sent out to work without PPE and spat at by a man claiming to have the virus. Nobody has been held accountable. Her family deserves answers. We need a public inquiry to find out what happened and why #JusticeforBellyMujinga" But there are tons of such people at a lower end of the scale, which you do not see so obviously, essentially doing the same thing. I mentioned a couple who were caught licking their hands and touching everything in a UK store, who were seen, reported and arrested. Many simply do the same thing but "under the desk", as it were, from not wearing a mask, to visiting people, going out drinking and behaving appallingly after that, going into public transport like that and so on... The consequences are very similar, if not the same! @Yen, we overcame such basically scholastic, feudal, pre-modern image of the world with Italian Renaissance: when the world had to fit a theory/dogma, rather than theory figuring out what the hell is really going on, so G. Brunos and Galileos of this world led the charge which overturned such "authoritative, natural, hierarchical structures" and such "adequate understanding of things"... FCOL, man... Now, now, @Yen, let's not bastardise this situation!!! Let's put things in its proper context! During WWII killing "others" in Germany and other places was systemic! Nazis were killing in the streets! Mass killings in death camps specially made for mass killing purpose! You are forgetting that old Germans, who lived under and supported the Nazis were not exactly very ashamed of what they have done. The subsequent generations asked "What were you doing then, Papa?" That generation repented and they genuinely were ashamed of what was done, they really made a turn! But the two overlapped! And as in any other society, UK & USofA included(!!!), not all repented!!! Some groups continued with their prejudices and authoritarian inclinations and values, as we see today, not only the really far right groups but now even the parliamentary right-wing parties. Not only in Germany, sadly! But get this: the real problem is, you are advocating the same garbage as they are! You know what I am talking about: such groups got in bed with and went to the streets even, with the nastiest part of the German polity... I would call THAT worrying! How can you not see that?!? Trump, Bolsonaro, BoJo, Orban and others are all on the same page, bleating the same thing as your gurus!!! They are actually THE REAL ENEMIES of HUMAN RIGHTS! Their long term strategy is obvious to anyone - except to you now... Seriously?!? You have no idea what you are talking about, as explained above! The real enemies of democracy are the populists you are in bed with on this, @Yen! Some politicians! As mentioned above! And you are blowing wind into their sales, the opposite from what needs doing!!! Nonsense! And of course, it's not me, just like you didn't do the opposite!!! Once again: you have the rest of the progressive scientific community against you, let's not BS each other here!!! While Tesla might have been in the minority of one on many issues and he won in the end - your clueless "scientific gurus" and Trump, Bolsonazi and the rest of them ARE NO TESLA!!!! Get off that high horse, you do not belong there!!! Again, you talk without seeing the forest for the trees! While the methodology worldwide is not uniform and consistent - the sheer numbers and reports of the illness are OVERWHELMING!!! But your gurus and their political "aiders and abetters" are playing some kind of puritans now, playing dumb, as if they can't see the very obvious, overwhelming weight of evidence all around us!!! We do not need to be scientists to see WTF is going on with that disease, Yen!!! We can hear from sufferers first hand, we can see the sheer numbers, we are learning ever more about it - but you choose to ignore all that, on the altar of what exactly? "Ach, we the scientific puritans are not satisfied with the purity of data collected and yes, we are drowning in deaths but the purity of data is contaminated and...." Yeah, swell!!! Tell it to the doctors and nurses DYING in the front lines of this war, Yen!!! Have you no empathy for their plight? For their sheer horror of every day work, day in, day out, for many months now - have you any idea how they feel and what they are going through, risking their very lives for all of us?!? AND YOU WANT TO MAKE IT EVEN MORE DIFFICULT FOR THEM AND FOR ALL OF US?!?!?!? Jesus Marx wept!!! BS!!! Again, you are mixing two levels of the problem! Now you are showing what I saw long ago and you may not see it even now - libertarian BS is under this! Facts! In a number of countries the power of decision making process was indeed contaminated by quick passing of powers to various "crisis headquarters", not including Parliaments, you are right. Some of these have behaved in an unprincipled and not exactly progressive manner! On the other hand, in some other countries the transference of power was done lawfully - so, from Parliament to a narrow group of people, not necessarily "experts", with certain limits in place. Neither is an automatic guarantee that we got a proper strategy and tactic in place! For instance, in Hungary Parliament legally gave Orban the extra powers - but until he sees fit to return them to the MPs. So, not exactly OK! In other places with not exactly democratic governments in place, they preserved the lives and health of their citizens really well! Not that I would not oppose the totalitarian or authoritarian regimes in general. But on this issue they did the right thing! So, there are no black/whites in this case and one must use one's critical powers to understand what is actually going on here, under the surface, whereby the mere formal criteria simply does not suffice!!! We must evaluate all aspects of what actually is being done in any place, i.e. what are the best practices!!! Seriously? Only your gurus and you are the sole arbiters of what is "appropriate" in this case? Wow! I thought it's better to err on the side of caution, that it is imperative in all matters of health to behave from "Do no harm" principles - but it seems you have "better" ideas... And quite honestly, it seems to me YOU and YOUR GURUS are IMPERVIOUS TO CRITICISM!!! All the nasty numbers and horror stories of the people affected do nothing to you and your gurus! And you are the "aggrieved party" - not the people affected by the C-19 and related problems?!? WOW! Well, there's a surprise... You mean, like Bolsonaro, Trump and all those guys? I mean, they are C-19 deniers...(Here comes Yen...) "Nah, can't be... they are all good boys who would do exactly as".... oh, well, exactly as you want them to do... Oh, wait: they are doing as you want politicians to act! AND LOOK AT THEIR RESULTS!!!! Sorry, who did you say is not accepting criticism, despite the disastrous results BY COMPARISON to countries which REALLY CONTAINED C-19?!? @Yen, at this point even my semi-literate aunt would understand things, raise her hand and say "OK, I f*&%ed up, I am sorry!" But I bet everything I have - you will not!!! Because EVIDENCE CLEARLY SHOWN HERE WILL MEAN NOTHING TO YOUR DOGMA!!! I really wish you would start "listening" to young and fit people who either died and talked about their illness or are still seriously ill with "long Covid", @Yen... But you are obviously not... No, @Yen, let's see what is actually happening in Brazil, USofA, UK and similar places where they espoused your gurus' advice and compare to, say, Vietnam, Kerala, Cuba, yes also NZ, South Korea and so on... See any differences? Unless... You feel that there is salvation in suffering, that suffering is good for us, that we should really die in large numbers, in pain and horror, gasping for air.... So, I know where I stand, @Yen! Fully! But you are LOST!!! CLUELESS!!! Yes, your little belief system, your dogma is nicely showing here... Seriously screwed as it is! It's OK to have an "ego", people! Concretely, it's OK to want to survive and be illness free! I DARE ANY SCIENTIST TO GO INTO A PUBLIC ARENA WITH SUCH STORY AND SEEK TO "LEAD" EVERYBODY, WITH ALL THE CONSEQUENCES THAT THIS WILL INEVITABLY LEAD TO!!! (Jesus, Yen, have you gone completely doo-lally?!?) Yes, Yen, that is their job, to serve their public! FCOL!!! Well, having seen your reasoning here I feel for them, if they have to waste their precious time on such "wisdom"... Thank god some politicians in the world do know what they are doing! As opposed to your gurus, Yen!