I don't know. To my understanding it's reality what's going on, not evidence. My concerns are huge, that's why I have the need to talk about. Since I live here we never had such a politics which is dangerous and far off from reason. If that isn't stopping not the virus will kill us, our politics will kill us. The real illness is pathological fear which is undermining democracy. The politicians do not act with reason, their idea is scaremongering. Speaking of methodology. Have they ever tried to make the efforts to validate their base of arguing (AKA numbers of infections)? No! It's like you want to know how many people do weigh more than 100 kilograms BUT your scale is neither calibrated nor validated! Anyway you force them above 100 kg to lose weight! If they want or not! AND based on such values you enact rules which are suspending constitution! Are you really aware of such a mess and what it means to all those representing serious science????? They have defined artificial thresholds for different states of lockdowns. Here in Germany it's the number of infections per week and per 100000 citizens. They have introduced an 'unit' without any scientific relations. No! Out of the wild! And they ignore any scientific criticism! They even put us to a group called corona deniers! This pathological fear is much more infectious than COVID-19. The people let lock them in, they accept further lock downs. They cry for a draconian hand which will save them. Therefore they are willing to sacrifice freedom. Have a look at New Zealand. The nation with massive lockdowns. Jacinda Ardern and their historical election victory. The people there still seem to think when they sacrifice their freedom they can save their soul from the virus. They vehemently defend their identity with a scared ego, rational arguing could kill it. That's the reason why they ignore it and turn to news which feeds the identity with a scared ego. They sell their idea as social and caring idea, but in fact they are solely ego related. They don't want to give up their pathological fear. And they want to present an illusion of political strength against the pandemic. Almost every politician here in Europe sufferes from it. They still don't have forums where different professionals can discuss different approaches. The RKI has the monopoly on wisdom. When politicians turn to the public they always do the same. They say: If we do not this or that ...then anything gets far worse. Have a look at the numbers! Do you want to be the one responsible for a raise? But any rule enacted is lacking of evidence-base. If you compare nations such as France with a more serious lockdown to Sweden you can notice that IF a raise is rolling a lockdown does nothing. NBER study suggest that, too. This is NOT the way of sovereign politics! This is helplessness of one that cannot think clearly anymore. It is dangerous! Things get distorted. Facts are torn apart out of context and out of relations. I simply want that they return to reason. I want political and open forums where different pros can discuss and find a consensus for the next months, years where we can live WITH COVID-19. I want that politicians stop their scaremongering by focussing the people on numbers of infections which say nothing about illness. I want that they are open to scientific criticism. I want that they validate their strategy and by that the way to categorize COVID-19. The general media shares fault, too. They support that tearing apart and putting out of contexts. For instance the shocking pictures Italy, New York....not informing that their capacities were almost exhausted before already and at each high seasons of viral infections the same situation mostly reasoned by bad health politics before....and so on. This is NO proper journalism, this is sensationalism. Shame on you! What we see here 'what's going on...the reality' is the psychodynamic of pathological fear. Inaccessible to reasonable debates and criticism. Unable for self-reflection. Germany should know from history what such a dynamics is able to do...especially at periods when the constitution was partly suspended.
Thank you Yen . I agree . >You already know each position of everyone here. Come on you can even make a summary, read old posts. Yes ....... and thats why i asked ........ because its obvious that not everyone taking part in this ' discussion ' is doing that ....... and ..... IF they made their positions clear they couldnt keep changing them ?
OK, let's not beat about the bush - this is what "freedom loving" people do at the extreme end, which ANYONE can instantly see: "#JusticeforBellyMujunga 0:00 / 0:52 Bell Ribeiro-Addy MP Shared with: Public Belly Mujinga died from #COVID19 just days after being sent out to work without PPE and spat at by a man claiming to have the virus. Nobody has been held accountable. Her family deserves answers. We need a public inquiry to find out what happened and why #JusticeforBellyMujinga" But there are tons of such people at a lower end of the scale, which you do not see so obviously, essentially doing the same thing. I mentioned a couple who were caught licking their hands and touching everything in a UK store, who were seen, reported and arrested. Many simply do the same thing but "under the desk", as it were, from not wearing a mask, to visiting people, going out drinking and behaving appallingly after that, going into public transport like that and so on... The consequences are very similar, if not the same! @Yen, we overcame such basically scholastic, feudal, pre-modern image of the world with Italian Renaissance: when the world had to fit a theory/dogma, rather than theory figuring out what the hell is really going on, so G. Brunos and Galileos of this world led the charge which overturned such "authoritative, natural, hierarchical structures" and such "adequate understanding of things"... FCOL, man... Now, now, @Yen, let's not bastardise this situation!!! Let's put things in its proper context! During WWII killing "others" in Germany and other places was systemic! Nazis were killing in the streets! Mass killings in death camps specially made for mass killing purpose! You are forgetting that old Germans, who lived under and supported the Nazis were not exactly very ashamed of what they have done. The subsequent generations asked "What were you doing then, Papa?" That generation repented and they genuinely were ashamed of what was done, they really made a turn! But the two overlapped! And as in any other society, UK & USofA included(!!!), not all repented!!! Some groups continued with their prejudices and authoritarian inclinations and values, as we see today, not only the really far right groups but now even the parliamentary right-wing parties. Not only in Germany, sadly! But get this: the real problem is, you are advocating the same garbage as they are! You know what I am talking about: such groups got in bed with and went to the streets even, with the nastiest part of the German polity... I would call THAT worrying! How can you not see that?!? Trump, Bolsonaro, BoJo, Orban and others are all on the same page, bleating the same thing as your gurus!!! They are actually THE REAL ENEMIES of HUMAN RIGHTS! Their long term strategy is obvious to anyone - except to you now... Seriously?!? You have no idea what you are talking about, as explained above! The real enemies of democracy are the populists you are in bed with on this, @Yen! Some politicians! As mentioned above! And you are blowing wind into their sales, the opposite from what needs doing!!! Nonsense! And of course, it's not me, just like you didn't do the opposite!!! Once again: you have the rest of the progressive scientific community against you, let's not BS each other here!!! While Tesla might have been in the minority of one on many issues and he won in the end - your clueless "scientific gurus" and Trump, Bolsonazi and the rest of them ARE NO TESLA!!!! Get off that high horse, you do not belong there!!! Again, you talk without seeing the forest for the trees! While the methodology worldwide is not uniform and consistent - the sheer numbers and reports of the illness are OVERWHELMING!!! But your gurus and their political "aiders and abetters" are playing some kind of puritans now, playing dumb, as if they can't see the very obvious, overwhelming weight of evidence all around us!!! We do not need to be scientists to see WTF is going on with that disease, Yen!!! We can hear from sufferers first hand, we can see the sheer numbers, we are learning ever more about it - but you choose to ignore all that, on the altar of what exactly? "Ach, we the scientific puritans are not satisfied with the purity of data collected and yes, we are drowning in deaths but the purity of data is contaminated and...." Yeah, swell!!! Tell it to the doctors and nurses DYING in the front lines of this war, Yen!!! Have you no empathy for their plight? For their sheer horror of every day work, day in, day out, for many months now - have you any idea how they feel and what they are going through, risking their very lives for all of us?!? AND YOU WANT TO MAKE IT EVEN MORE DIFFICULT FOR THEM AND FOR ALL OF US?!?!?!? Jesus Marx wept!!! BS!!! Again, you are mixing two levels of the problem! Now you are showing what I saw long ago and you may not see it even now - libertarian BS is under this! Facts! In a number of countries the power of decision making process was indeed contaminated by quick passing of powers to various "crisis headquarters", not including Parliaments, you are right. Some of these have behaved in an unprincipled and not exactly progressive manner! On the other hand, in some other countries the transference of power was done lawfully - so, from Parliament to a narrow group of people, not necessarily "experts", with certain limits in place. Neither is an automatic guarantee that we got a proper strategy and tactic in place! For instance, in Hungary Parliament legally gave Orban the extra powers - but until he sees fit to return them to the MPs. So, not exactly OK! In other places with not exactly democratic governments in place, they preserved the lives and health of their citizens really well! Not that I would not oppose the totalitarian or authoritarian regimes in general. But on this issue they did the right thing! So, there are no black/whites in this case and one must use one's critical powers to understand what is actually going on here, under the surface, whereby the mere formal criteria simply does not suffice!!! We must evaluate all aspects of what actually is being done in any place, i.e. what are the best practices!!! Seriously? Only your gurus and you are the sole arbiters of what is "appropriate" in this case? Wow! I thought it's better to err on the side of caution, that it is imperative in all matters of health to behave from "Do no harm" principles - but it seems you have "better" ideas... And quite honestly, it seems to me YOU and YOUR GURUS are IMPERVIOUS TO CRITICISM!!! All the nasty numbers and horror stories of the people affected do nothing to you and your gurus! And you are the "aggrieved party" - not the people affected by the C-19 and related problems?!? WOW! Well, there's a surprise... You mean, like Bolsonaro, Trump and all those guys? I mean, they are C-19 deniers...(Here comes Yen...) "Nah, can't be... they are all good boys who would do exactly as".... oh, well, exactly as you want them to do... Oh, wait: they are doing as you want politicians to act! AND LOOK AT THEIR RESULTS!!!! Sorry, who did you say is not accepting criticism, despite the disastrous results BY COMPARISON to countries which REALLY CONTAINED C-19?!? @Yen, at this point even my semi-literate aunt would understand things, raise her hand and say "OK, I f*&%ed up, I am sorry!" But I bet everything I have - you will not!!! Because EVIDENCE CLEARLY SHOWN HERE WILL MEAN NOTHING TO YOUR DOGMA!!! I really wish you would start "listening" to young and fit people who either died and talked about their illness or are still seriously ill with "long Covid", @Yen... But you are obviously not... No, @Yen, let's see what is actually happening in Brazil, USofA, UK and similar places where they espoused your gurus' advice and compare to, say, Vietnam, Kerala, Cuba, yes also NZ, South Korea and so on... See any differences? Unless... You feel that there is salvation in suffering, that suffering is good for us, that we should really die in large numbers, in pain and horror, gasping for air.... So, I know where I stand, @Yen! Fully! But you are LOST!!! CLUELESS!!! Yes, your little belief system, your dogma is nicely showing here... Seriously screwed as it is! It's OK to have an "ego", people! Concretely, it's OK to want to survive and be illness free! I DARE ANY SCIENTIST TO GO INTO A PUBLIC ARENA WITH SUCH STORY AND SEEK TO "LEAD" EVERYBODY, WITH ALL THE CONSEQUENCES THAT THIS WILL INEVITABLY LEAD TO!!! (Jesus, Yen, have you gone completely doo-lally?!?) Yes, Yen, that is their job, to serve their public! FCOL!!! Well, having seen your reasoning here I feel for them, if they have to waste their precious time on such "wisdom"... Thank god some politicians in the world do know what they are doing! As opposed to your gurus, Yen!
Mr.X ...... I asked because each persons ' position ' is clear to me . Yen is trying to be correct . Your deliberately talking stupid crap and gorski keeps changing his position . For yen it means something because hes german and we've been here before and we dont want to go back to that again . Again . Again . You havent got the brains to understand what your saying and doing and gorski overestimates his intelligence and is treating this ' discussion' as if its a verbal acrobatics competition . Gorski talks about useing force and then calls other people nazi !? An antiintellectual argumentation that dissapears up its own arse . In end effect this thread is no different than the two you posted ....... and if people made their ' positions ' clear there would be less chance for game playing . Yen did what i asked and made his position clear . The press is a worse problem than corona . For example we see an ' election ' in the us thats being decided by CNN and the world press throwing s**t at trump 24 / 7 . s**t sticks = it doesnt matter what he says and does they twist it for their own means . The whole of the world poly-tricks IS a ken and barby game show where evil people make speaches , lie , cheat and fill their pockets with cash ....... and psychomanic morons vote for them ......... because they've been indoctrinated in schools and lied to all their ' lives ' by the infotainment press . Poly-trickers are up to their necks in blind actionism = Trying to keep control and be seen to be in control . ........ and just printing money . That cant go on without very big problems . Theres a very thin line between poly-trickers useing the means that a country has to keep that country safe and to stop social unrest and rioting ......... and useing those means to keep themselves and the system that they profit from in control ........ and keep the slaves working for them ........ wich if continued can only go in the direction of the worst possible orwellian nightmare . If it goes on it proves that all the economic theorys and strategys that we've had are all wrong . Printing more money makes the value of each currency unit smaller and somewhere sometime someone will have to pay ....... either in cash or by loosing ' everything ' . Wich is just a continuation of class strugle where the cards are marked and the capitalists always ' win ' ....... and we always loose and pay . And noone is talking about where we go from here . Yen ...... Thank you . I agree .
"Gorski talks about useing force and then calls other people nazi !? An antiintellectual argumentation that dissapears up its own arse." Oh, FFS!!! Read with a bit of understanding... Ever heard of "state", "police", "military"? Any idea what would happen if we didn't have the "state"? Well, a little challenge for you: look above at my rather obvious examples and stop... Arrghhh!!! Deal with those examples or have the decency to just shut up, for once, Jeezusss.... (Seriously?!? I mean, the word fail me... This kinda comment is just plain crass... Wake up, man!!!) Btw, I am talking about strategy, if you actually look up a little bit, when you're not on drugs or something similar... We are in need of medicines/drugs (anti-virals) or vaccines! We need to "buy time", until our science and medicine do their job! We are Human Beings, FFS, not animals!!! Speaking of "herd immunity" is for idiots and/or eugenicists, as many proper scientists have warned, not once! READ A LITTLE BIT!!!
Again verbal acrobatics ...... two empty populistic posts void of facts . I never argued for or against a ' state ' or legitimate control . >Any idea what would happen if we didn't have the "state"? We would be free ? You mix terminology that you dont understand . Today there is no state or if there is there shouldnt be one . ' Democracy ' was suposed to get rid of that and replace it by representation = for the people by the people . State is a remnant of kings , popes , diktators , ju ju priest and partys . Its divide and rule where we are subjects and ' the state ' are our rulers . > when you're not on drugs Fascho . Your trying to disqualify me and what i'm saying by insinuating that i've taken ' drugs ' and therfore me and my words cant be taken seriously . Attacking me personaly and ignoring what i said . I havent taken any ' drugs ' . >or something similar... Fascho . Your insinuating that i am mentaly ill and therfore me and my words cant be taken seriously . >We are Human Beings, FFS, not animals Duhhhhh !!!
The fact you concur with @Yen 's position doesn't make mine stupid. Not convinced? Just look who's writing style make use of tons of dots between lines denoting low iq and poor scholarship in addition. You tagging me as stupid moron for using chlorine dioxide doesn't make you smarter but just ignorant and to the eyes of many doctors and scientists, you're a little clueless guy.
>The fact you concur with @Yen 's position doesn't make mine stupid. I agree with that >Just look who's writing style make use of tons of dots between lines denoting low iq and poor scholarship in addition.
True heroes, true gurus, true patriots not s**tty c**ts full of cowardice. https://acu2020.org/english-versions/
AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine trial Brazil volunteer dies, trial to continue https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN2762N2
Compared to.. Everything is proceeding HERE in Brazil as expected. Only one DEATH so far! What a farce. But wait It'll be our cure. Natural herd immunity, nah. It's unethical. (reaching it happens anyway, especially now...) I never stated that I want to be one that wants to join the party. I am no politician. 'Only' Besides of that I am quite real. The number of fatalities do not raise to the same amount. Thank god, but it's as expected. Probably due to seroprevalence of ~80% Means the relative percentage is getting lower and lower approximating the real value which is still unknown.. But the psycho dynamic of fear leaves it unconsidered. The raise is rolling over Europe despite of different measures and restrictions. All powers need to be concentrated to have enough medical capacities. Anything else is secondary. When you test 10 times more than on April you need to have 10 times more of infections to reach the same degree of the first wave. But the psycho dynamic of fear leaves it unconsidered.
Ladies and gentlemen presenting the first scientific study for chlorine dioxide in vivo... In vivo? Yes, in vivo In vivo evaluation of the antiviral effect of ClO2 in chicken embryos inoculated with avian infectious bronchitis coronavirus https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.10.13.336768v1 BOOM!
I remembered when I lived in India a case where a man took a laxative from a doctor. Most Indians use Ayurveda doctors instead of hospital doctors. So I learned that according to Ayurveda there are more than 600 types of laxative for a person, depending on the constitution of a person, what kind of dosha vata a person has. And the doctor clearly selects from 600 varieties only the medicine that suits the patient. Moreover, these medicines are herbal infusions and without any chemistry. So this is where I'm heading? For each person there is a separate medicine, we are all different, if one fits, then the other will be death! Ps: I'm not an Indian - we just fly to India every year for a two-month vacation.
Interesting data. Thanks. Thing is chlorine dioxide has proven success in every and each case with zero yes zero iatrogenic damage or deaths. Nice isn't it?
Yen, you are totally out of order! The top scientists are showing quite clearly that herd immunity is only to be used when it comes to having a vaccine and giving it to close to everybody. To allow everybody to be exposed to the virus that we just started studying and we know that many will die - is unethical! What the hell is your problem with that? Do we have an alternative? Yes, we do - find a vaccine and/or anti-viral drugs. How? Well, volunteers is one way (probably after initial experiments with animals, at least sometimes)! Not with a gun to their heads! They do know what they are getting themselves into! At least in the West, they do! But if you decide everybody is to go back to work, because this is the only way, we "must get herd immunity" - if you decide that with power of the state behind you, then you are using FORCE!!! A lot of force! Which is what libertarians are doing, as I demonstrated on Koch's example! They are using their corporate power, the money they have, to influence the legislators to do their bidding! Now, who is quite obviously farcical here? Or if you wish: who is a hypocrite here? Pointing a finger at others for something you would do!!! FCOL, THINK BEFORE YOU WRITE NONSENSE!!!
The reason I posted that link is not to show that one infection is worse that the other, it is to show similarities. People in here seem to take one part of the data and magnify it to ridiculous levels to suit their own cause, which seems to be sensationalism. I think covid19is overblown, yes it's deadly but so is the flu. It magnifies certain respiratory complications , which the flu can do as well. The one alarming thing I find is the organ damage. I also think this discussion is bordering on the realms of Trump stupidity at times. I wish people would stick to the facts and stop being overdramatic, the media is doing a great job at being overdramatic already!
Example of media lunacy. https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/06/health/flu-covid-19-deaths-comparison-trnd/index.html What purpose does it serve to compare the death rates of a new infection and compare it to an old infection that has been around for hundreds of years? But even in that case, the WHO estimates that around 290 000 to 650 000 people die from the flu worldwide every year! https://www.health.com/condition/cold-flu-sinus/how-many-people-die-of-the-flu-every-year Why isn't the media making graphs and tracking the flu? it's because there is no money in it! Flu won't sell as well as covid-19 the new and relatively unknown media darling. My word of advice would be to stop idolizing politicians and the media, they are part and parcel of the same human disease, corruption!
Three is an interesting read here: https://biogeekery.wordpress.com/2013/02/25/human-resistance-to-infectious-diseases/
The answer is simple and you know it! There is a lot of media funding as propaganda for Covid19 Only in Shvei was seen from a budget of 2 million for 1 month of advertising covid19 All advertising is funded from your taxes.