"De-Americanizing the World" a must, says Chomsky...

Discussion in 'Serious Discussion' started by gorski, Nov 12, 2013.

  1. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
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    De-Americanizing the World Noam Chomsky Truthout, November 5, 2013
    During the latest episode of the Washington farce that has astonished a bemused world, a Chinese commentator wrote that if the United States cannot be a responsible member of the world system, perhaps the world should become "de-Americanized" -- and separate itself from the rogue state that is the reigning military power but is losing credibility in other domains. The Washington debacle's immediate source was the sharp shift to the right among the political class. In the past, the U.S. has sometimes been described sardonically -- but not inaccurately -- as a one-party state: the business party, with two factions called Democrats and Republicans. That is no longer true. The U.S. is still a one-party state, the business party. But it only has one faction: moderate Republicans, now called New Democrats (as the U.S. Congressional coalition styles itself). There is still a Republican organization, but it long ago abandoned any pretense of being a normal parliamentary party. Conservative commentator Norman Ornstein of the American Enterprise Institute describes today's Republicans as "a radical insurgency -- ideologically extreme, scornful of facts and compromise, dismissive of the legitimacy of its political opposition": a serious danger to the society. The party is in lock-step service to the very rich and the corporate sector. Since votes cannot be obtained on that platform, the party has been compelled to mobilize sectors of the society that are extremist by world standards. Crazy is the new norm among Tea Party members and a host of others beyond the mainstream. The Republican establishment and its business sponsors had expected to use them as a battering ram in the neoliberal assault against the population -- to privatize, to deregulate and to limit government, while retaining those parts that serve wealth and power, like the military. The Republican establishment has had some success, but now finds that it can no longer control its base, much to its dismay. The impact on American society thus becomes even more severe. A case in point: the virulent reaction against the Affordable Care Act and the near-shutdown of the government. The Chinese commentator's observation is not entirely novel. In 1999, political analyst Samuel P. Huntington warned that for much of the world, the U.S. is "becoming the rogue superpower," seen as "the single greatest external threat to their societies." A few months into the Bush term, Robert Jervis, president of the American Political Science Association, warned that "In the eyes of much of the world, in fact, the prime rogue state today is the United States." Both Huntington and Jervis warned that such a course is unwise. The consequences for the U.S. could be harmful. In the latest issue of Foreign Affairs, the leading establishment journal, David Kaye reviews one aspect of Washington's departure from the world: rejection of multilateral treaties "as if it were sport." He explains that some treaties are rejected outright, as when the U.S. Senate "voted against the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities in 2012 and the Comprehensive Nuclear-Test-Ban Treaty (CTBT) in 1999." Others are dismissed by inaction, including "such subjects as labor, economic and cultural rights, endangered species, pollution, armed conflict, peacekeeping, nuclear weapons, the law of the sea, and discrimination against women." Rejection of international obligations "has grown so entrenched," Kaye writes, "that foreign governments no longer expect Washington's ratification or its full participation in the institutions treaties create. The world is moving on; laws get made elsewhere, with limited (if any) American involvement." While not new, the practice has indeed become more entrenched in recent years, along with quiet acceptance at home of the doctrine that the U.S. has every right to act as a rogue state. To take a typical example, a few weeks ago U.S. special operations forces snatched a suspect, Abu Anas al-Libi, from the streets of the Libyan capital Tripoli, bringing him to a naval vessel for interrogation without counsel or rights. U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry informed the press that the actions are legal because they comply with American law, eliciting no particular comment. Principles are valid only if they are universal. Reactions would be a bit different, needless to say, if Cuban special forces kidnapped the prominent terrorist Luis Posada Carriles in Miami, bringing him to Cuba for interrogation and trial in accordance with Cuban law. Such actions are restricted to rogue states. More accurately, to the one rogue state that is powerful enough to act with impunity: in recent years, to carry out aggression at will, to terrorize large regions of the world with drone attacks, and much else. And to defy the world in other ways, for example by persisting in its embargo against Cuba despite the long-term opposition of the entire world, apart from Israel, which voted with its protector when the United Nations again condemned the embargo (188-2) in October. Whatever the world may think, U.S. actions are legitimate because we say so. The principle was enunciated by the eminent statesman Dean Acheson in 1962, when he instructed the American Society of International Law that no legal issue arises when the United States responds to a challenge to its "power, position, and prestige." Cuba committed that crime when it beat back a U.S. invasion and then had the audacity to survive an assault designed to bring "the terrors of the earth" to Cuba, in the words of Kennedy adviser and historian Arthur Schlesinger. When the U.S. gained independence, it sought to join the international community of the day. That is why the Declaration of Independence opens by expressing concern for the "decent respect to the opinions of mankind." A crucial element was evolution from a disorderly confederacy to a unified "treaty-worthy nation," in diplomatic historian Eliga H. Gould's phrase, that observed the conventions of the European order. By achieving this status, the new nation also gained the right to act as it wished internally. It could thus proceed to rid itself of the indigenous population and to expand slavery, an institution so "odious" that it could not be tolerated in England, as the distinguished jurist William Murray, Earl of Mansfield, ruled in 1772. Evolving English law was a factor impelling the slave-owning society to escape its reach. Becoming a treaty-worthy nation thus conferred multiple advantages: foreign recognition, and the freedom to act at home without interference. Hegemonic power offers the opportunity to become a rogue state, freely defying international law and norms, while facing increased resistance abroad and contributing to its own decline through self-inflicted wounds.
    [​IMG]

    http://chomsky.info/articles/20131105.htm

    http://www.theguardian.com/books/2001/jan/20/society.politics

    https://www.intellectualrevolution.tv/videos/noam-chomsky-the-conscience-of-america-3

    No, it's not all dry... :D Look at this... :D

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJtHNEDnrnY - Oppan Chomsky Style... :D :D :D
     
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  2. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

    Feb 13, 2011
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    De-Americanize the world and then what Chinesify it so we can start importing milk powder that is really chalk dust. :eek: Yes I watch CCTV a lot and most of their so called commentators are comedians pushing a Chinese agenda much like the Americans have theirs, two sides of the same coin. The US have many lunatics both in and out of government, but so do the Chinese and Russians et al. The difference is that most of US idiots screw ups are broadcast live for all to see. We never really see what the Chinese are doing because of their propaganda wall of bollocks. Here is something for you http://www.thetibetpost.com/en/outl...ral-genocide-in-tibet-crimes-against-humanity
    To be honest I would not trust the US, Chinese, Russians, Europeans Africans or Indians with any responsibility on anything at all, they are all full of crap. Survival of the fittest applies.
     
  3. zen45

    zen45 MDL Senior Member

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    I think the original intent of all country's was to help its people, but the power hungry politician's have their own agenda !! the sad part is it will take a major disaster
    to get the world to realize we need each other and by disaster I mean a major war or comet striking the earth something that takes out half the worlds population
    to finally realize we need each other to survive :(
     
  4. acyuta

    acyuta MDL Expert

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    I would rather live in a free world than in a prosperous or rising economic power such as China where Big Brother is not only watching you but also dictating how you live.

    I live in a democracy and no matter how flawed it is, I shudder to think of life in a dictatorship/authoritarian state. Perhaps people consider food more important than liberty.
     
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  5. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
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    Guys, guys, let's get serious.... This is elementary logic, for crying out loud... What you are doing is the worst Balkanic sh*te one can imagine (and I don't have to, since I am from there :D ): "He who's not with me is against me" - JEEEEEZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!:jumpon:

    In all things Human there are always more than ONLY 2 OPTIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Moreover, being Human means we are able to imagine, construct, make new options!!!!!!!!!!

    In this case, of course, at the very least(!!!), we have the Social Democratic option, the least cr*ppy option on Earth, Scandinavian "style".

    And it's not like we couldn't improve on that one, either!!!

    So, this is pure nonsense: unless US, then China...

    Whatever happened to EU, for starters?!?

    And then, within EU there are options...

    Get your thinking hats out, FFS!!!

    :D :D :D

    P.S. Survival of the fittest?!? :eek:Oh, boy, oh boy, have you been had or what...:rolleyes::p:biggrin::D
     
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  6. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

    Feb 13, 2011
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    @Gorski I mentioned Europe, what makes you think that Europe is any different from USA and China ? Europe is probably worse with all those neo-nazi troglodytes. In an ideal world we have many options, in a plutocracy we have two either we are part of the plutocracy or part of the so called chattel. The world is or will become one big plutocracy. But if you would like all the chattel can start a riot and take over the world economy and run everything ! I personally am waiting on our benefactors from the Pleiades to come take over the Earth so we can be, well chattel or who knows maybe food. We need a hive mind to proceed but that isn't going to happen we are too stupid for that.
     
  7. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
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    Studying it in some depth, especially the Social Democratic model, experiencing it, living it in, its many parts, comparing it with US and East etc.

    That's what makes me "think" that EU is much better than US at the moment...

    But that does NOT mean UNcritical relationship with the object of my study!

    My profession, you see... :)
     
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  8. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    The social democratic model is far better, but theory is not sufficient 'to convince'. It is in direct conflict with the American way of life. Ego related interests, identification with a false idea and objects such as capital and to notice of their impermanence, the own ego is felt the same way. Lack of self-confidence and the need to gain power by control of others are the results.

    The issue is a problem of misidentification. The US acts as a catalyst for the doom of capitalism. They are crossing borders and affect people directly seizing servers (mega upload) and spying on private persons.
    The most effective dangerous state in the world concerning democracy. They directly affect citizens of other countries, the US has no right to say to other people what is right and what is wrong! The Chinese do not affect other's own laws.

    The EU has altogether already much more social values, also due to their longer history. But they are not free of materialistic interests and mimic the US in the regard of ego interests. We are (still) not immune.

    The doom of the socialistic world was not because of a bad (theoretic) value, it was because of the immaturity of the people who had to live it, still identified with values such as capital and money.
    I am not sure if the Swedish are living Social democracy from their heart (maturity) or if they have to because it is ordered and one time the ego aspects will prevail again.

    A de-Americanization can only work if self-identification is drastically changing.
    I guess the dynamics of ego is represented at any capitalistic market. It grows, bloats then it will blow. NO real value behind it, built on fake such as the american dream of life itself.
    de-Americanization cannot be ordered and it does not grow on imperialistic soil. A change in consciousness is needed. More and more 'enlightened' people will initiate it and will create social values which persist. In the world where only materialistic and 'rational' (with own materialistic benefit) values are counting, it will probably take a few more cycles of doom until humans are mature enough to break through this cycle of misidentification.

    To spy
    To control
    To accumulate
    To seize
    To exploit (fracking)
    To war

    People are still not aware what the US are doing and that it is serious, very serious.

    (With US I mean politics and interests of those who 'rule' the country, also their monopolies and lobbyists) :)
     
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  9. CODYQX4

    CODYQX4 MDL Developer

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    You guys would really prefer China to take the USA's place?
     
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  10. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    Which place? And why China and not North-Corea? This is no racing...
    It's like: "How can I prevent to become injured again?" And the answer is: "You should be grateful that you haven't died."
     
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  11. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

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    Rephrase the red bit, The Chinese are not allowed to affect other's own laws. Given opportunity they will all do the same nonsense that the US is doing.
     
  12. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    I don't know. Who is the 'one' who allows or forbids? Pressure from 'outside'? The US are actually (also) not allowed to spy.....they are bold enough to do. So one must also make them to 'not allow'.
    Chinese do spy anyway, they copy patents and inventions (corporate espionage). But private persons of different countries are not boldly spied out. The US went too far.

    I want to make clear that to me the problem is a problem of 'misidentification' with wrong ideals and values, sick self-realization process. It is a generic issue, which grows especially in the US. There it has built political structures and monopolies most. From there it spreads and has good conditions to grow. It grows everywhere where material objects are valued and strength and success are associated with acquired capital only. Solidarity, social and environmental values have a hard time to exist, democracy is affected. The change in consciousness should happen everywhere.
     
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  13. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
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    More than likely, R29K! They are starting to have an impact, that's for sure!

    However, the issues here are far from black/white...

    Most importantly: we can create new options!

    This "either - or" is no option for us!

    Us = Humans, that is.

    Yen, chicken or egg: "A de-Americanization can only work if self-identification is drastically changing."

    Can this happen without changing the way we reproduce the life of the community?

    Which is the basis for the other? What of interaction/dialectics of it all?

    Agreed: both have to change drastically. But that is revolution!

    Imagine "average" Americans reacting to such an idea... :D

    Is there a (middle) way towards it, maybe? Well...

    Meet Social Democratic "reformism" in person... :D

    http://www.esping-andersen.com/

    Especially "Politics against markets", as I have already warned...

    Here's more: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=gosta+esping-andersen+politics+against+markets
     
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  14. timesurfer

    timesurfer MDL Developer

    Nov 22, 2009
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    Subscribed ;)...lol

    p.s. Probably the nicest most honest beings I ever met :shisha:...lol

    Their most memorable communication is thought precedes reality...lol
     
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  15. moon510

    moon510 MDL Junior Member

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    I am sorry to say that Anerica lost all its credibility. The US allowed democracy to be hijacked by too-nig-to-fail corporations, banks and so on. America currently depends on dollar as international exchange currency. So China and other more productive cuntries press for a new international exchange curenncy. Maybe bitcoin is a solution? At least something like that. Really there is no point in trying to solve the debt problem just by printning the dollar without corresponding value in produced goods and services. America is stull the the biggest producer in military industry, and it is in its inrterest to make political crises and wars in other parts of the world just to get some more bucks from selling arms. It's shameful. It seens to me that capitalism is collapsing in the west because some people in banking sector believe that they can make profit out of thin air. The magic of social success is in production of goods. Debt only leads to desaster, or revolution? Capitalism is eroding in some kind of neo-feudalism.
     
  16. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    Yes it means revolution. But inner revolution. I mean how can one change 'the others' appreciation of 'things'?
    How to make someone clear that social aspects are of more 'real' value than to own stuff? The process of change has to be initiated IN each individual, the community with such 'enlightened' will affect others.
    A seldom example is Bill Gates. From where came his change of mind?

    We have 'values' and infrastructures which are constructed out of that miss-identification! Perverted branches of Science, consume, high tech, capital.

    A similar thing happens to 'me'. Originally a purely scientific mind has gained 'something' of no 'countable' and 'concrete' value.....my 'personal' life has gained much more of quality and happiness since then. Social / environmental responsibility is developing, 'real' things are perceived....


    I don't know what is included in 'dialectics'. Until now the greatest teacher of humankind has been suffering.

    But: One can only drastically change the misidentification IF the one honestly wants to get rid of suffering. This driving force will make the one to go after the cause of suffering...to unveil the mechanisms of suffering.
    Only this will change appreciation / identification from impermanent(= cause of suffering) values to more persistent values (which are of more reality, closer at one's real self).

    Distraction by new and new materialistic objects will delay the process of inner revolution. Pure capitalistic societies are doomed IF capital isn't shared / donated / given back voluntarily....but....the contrary is happening, more and more own capital is created at stocks exchanges by inventing more and more artificial products from bankers...one can speculate on the doom of something and if it becomes true one gets money.......how sick is that?

    The US is the origin of such sick new products, it reflects the condition of the entire society there, at stock exchange and finance.
    They are the successors of physics (A-bomb).

    As history shows: IF misidentification with those objects persist then their real attribute which is impermanence will also act in the society itself. Pure identification with impermanent values = Capitalism has its germ of death already included when it was born.....and that cycle is repeating until self-identification moves to 'real' values. Reality is persistent, illusion is tied to time.

    How to show others what is real? The other will recognize the attempt at once as an purely ego related intention, with the goal to realize personal 'benefits'!
    This conclusion is the only one possible because to the other no other mechanism is reasoned, inner transformation has not yet started.
    I mean inner revolution = self transcendence! No other process will change something permanently.


    One can only initiate a inner process in others, but not communicate it verbally to 'convince'. Or am I wrong?
    Or needs a government to enforce social interests to their people to 'cultivate' a social idea? No it has failed already due to lack of maturity. If the root of misidentification is not torn out rank weeds are coming back.
    A peaceful revolution = inner revolution....an revolution from 'outside' causes wars.
     
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  17. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
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    Seriously?:rolleyes::biggrin::D
     
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  18. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    I don't know. :biggrin:

    A representative poll: "Will the US change their behaviour if the Germans would interview Snowden and sign 'papers' that make the US to forbid to spy?" ~84% No they would continue anyway.

    The US authorities present their state as No 1 and 'the greatest' = strong ego. They defend their interests and say no to the EU if they don't want to cooperate.
    There is no consciousness of guilt generally.

    (btw: last week I saw a report about fracking......I 'became sick' watching it....:puke2: )

    And: Fukushima (suffer) made the Germans to create a schedule to switch out nuclear energy. This would not have happened if the 'green idea' has had no place before already...'hasn't had a history in the individuals, a process of change'

    Many US citizens say that the US (government) is doing wrong.

    The change happens IN each individual. An enforced change from another nation by applying pressure to the entire society or government does not work.

    Sweden does it well living their social democracy. This alone will affect others and initiate a 'inner' change.

    Sweden would do it wrong to enforce their idea of social democracy at other EU states.
    There must be the right infrastructures and social democracy does also mean a huge trust into the institution who administers the social revenues.
    Ego interests there are even more harmful to social democracy.

    The dialectical process is stuck in a loop. Humans fail always at the same issue. Wasn't it always suffer that caused a major change in consciousness? And didn't the same cause for suffering came back again and again because there was no real transcendence yet?
    How can values such as sympathy for others develop and persist?

    I mean our goal is (our main job) to identify ourself with things which we will lose anyway later, is this reasonable? To take away suffer (of others and own) cannot be 'lost'. To be social and to show solidarity (solidus in contrary to volatile= capital) cannot 'be lost'.

    I don't know...but I think the US will not change until more and more of their people are changing themselves.
    Until then other nations can be a good example to live their way with more social aspects. But they are not yet cured either.


    To me history shows a revolution from outside does not work. It are more and more individuals changing their idea of oneself. And due to their immediate actions in their social environment they affect the environment!
    The social idea is communicated through individuals by own actions in the immediate environment and affects from there the entire nation.
    To become 'enlightened' you cannot fight darkness. One must bring the light into it....that is what I mean with peaceful revolution...the idea to become violent has gone here.....others probably laugh about and say this will change nothing.....but what has enforcement ever changed in oneself?
    I know it's my way to express things......sorry, lol....:biggrin::)

    gorski, what would be your way (to spread the social idea there)? :)
     
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  19. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

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    It's called Nationalism and the same applies to the Chinese and don't even talk about the Russians, Putin could be Al Capone. The problem is never trust humans with power, humans are flawed, luckily I'm not human! :biggrin:
     
  20. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
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    Where and at which time?
     
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