"De-Americanizing the World" a must, says Chomsky...

Discussion in 'Serious Discussion' started by gorski, Nov 12, 2013.

  1. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

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    The problem Yen is that money doesn't really exist. Where exactly does a bank's value exist, have a read ?
    De-Americanization has more to do with the reduction of America's influences over the money markets. This inevitably will play into the hands of someone else, most likely China or Russia.
     
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  2. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    It is greed! And it is the fact that the more I get the more I am is recognized as truth. It is the claim to have something in return for a seemingly hard work. Work is mostly recognized as burden and that creates the claim to want something in return, so to say as compensation. Why is work recognized as burden? Because work itself does not get back what is expected in life. Fulfillment and true happiness. It temporarily seems that work gets something back, but any 'thing' that comes is actually without any real value, or in other words the value is related to the thing or depends on it.

    Who judges about if something is deserved? Let's say one is working 'hard' and gets money. Who says the amount the one gets is justified? And by doing this hard work who else is involved who makes it possible that you can have your job?
    Charwoman, dustman, workers, CEO in your company....they need money as well. And the more they get the less is left for you. Already here social aspects count. What about insurances? They decrease the profit as well, because they cost money. There are many more keywords such as exploiting the nature, environmental protection.
    Not to speak from the relation of your company to others. Any company is dependent on other companies where people are working as well who need money as well.
    So who can say you deserve how much? Or when can you say it is OK what you earn?


    Enthusiasm can be there but that is not related to the work itself, it is already a 'higher' form of self-awareness and only a few are working with enthusiasm (those have no greed, though).


    You are right. The thread title is DE-americanizing the world, not DE-americanizing the USA. The basic principle I have mentioned is a human issue.
    And yes money has no real value, or in other words, this attribute unveils more an more by printing banknotes. Actually any appearance has no real value.
    Anyway it is related to anything that appears. To keep my body (appearance) alive I need food (appearance) and money (appearance) is related to them. It has a relative value which is illusionary, though.

    One needs money to keep the body alive.

    BUT: All that has nothing to do with peace and happiness and a fulfilled life. The illusion is the incompleteness caused by a false identification. The resulting inferiority complex causes greed. If one takes something it is missing elsewhere, that is the relation of 'things'.
    Only if one deeply knows that one has anything already what is valuable at all, one can handle 'appearance' properly.
    To 'recognize' that one has anything already one needs to start to give, without to want something in return.
    Then real richness unveils.

    Only then a social idea can be born. And the social idea is precursor of enlightenment.
     
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  3. murphy78

    murphy78 MDL DISM Enthusiast

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    In America we have had that communism = bad - stuff shoved down our throats since birth. It's only when we get about 30 years old or so that some of us even take a look around and realize that this propaganda doesn't help out non-rich in any way. America is very short-sighted. The Reagon-economists that came up with this trickle-down economic system were heavily lobbied from the rich people in their time just like the people who were witch-hunting communists were before them.

    You hit it 100% on the head when you mentioned "greed". It's exactly what it is, and it's so bad in our American culture that it's like a religion. You can't just shun the greed or everyone treats you like a filthy hippie.
    I don't know if you live here in the U.S. but it's really bad. I really hope China takes over as number one so people will stop worshiping this failure of an economic system.
     
  4. CODYQX4

    CODYQX4 MDL Developer

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    #84 CODYQX4, Aug 5, 2014
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  5. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

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    :laie: You really must be kidding ! Yes greed is very prevalent in the US and it has become a culture of greed. But that culture has been allowed to grow by the mostly ignorant populace. It can change very quickly if "the people" decide that they want it. But the last piece of your post is hilarious. You want a communist and "greedy" China to take over ? Yes China has greed too it's not limited to the US. Basic human rights are abused in China in the interest of profits. You need to change the world financial system or in effect get rid of it completely.
     
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  6. Ixtili

    Ixtili MDL Novice

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    I don't know if I agree with the idea of "money = truth of/or self". Maybe I'm not grasping the concept 100%.

    In my mind, money is simply a medium of exchange. In my line of work, I can say, "Hey there, I'll fix your car. In exchange I want your dollars to purchase food and other goods for self-preservation or pleasure." In a sort of "money-less" society, I could easily trade my skills for the goods someone is willing to offer. That is, of course, until I engage someone who hasn't got something that I either need, nor want. This is where money comes in as a medium of exchange, so that I can receive compensation on my skills or goods for the purchase of other goods. Mises.org has heaps upon heaps of good info and lectures about what money really is as opposed to this fiat currency the world over uses now.

    The thing about communism that fails is that you still have this power-over structure. The philosophy of it is "From those according to their ability, to those according to their needs". Who does the decision making there? Who decides what you are or aren't capable of? Who decided what you do or do not need? Is it not better for the individual to make these kinds of choices for themselves? Besides, if a person has a great ability to provide for himself, he is arguably not going to appreciate an outside entity coming in, and saying they make enough to support their self, so the decision-maker is going to take their excess and give it to someone who hasn't done any real work for 10 years, thereby elevating them to the same level as the high-achiever, and cutting-down the achiever to the level of the sloth. This can only breed resentment among both parties. Resentment for "those in need" from "those who provide", and resentment for "Those with too much" from "Those who need it more"... does that make sense?

    "Capitalism uncontrolled leads to a bought and sold crony system where Big Business skirts the law and buys politicians outright." Maybe... if there were no politicians to buy out though, and they had to instead pander to their customers, they'd find out real quick what people do or don't want and how much they're willing to pay for it. A truly free, unregulated market has heaps of potential... for growth, and potential for advancing human society. The competition to make bigger and better things while quality goods would see prices begin to drop as better methods or competitors drive prices down.

    I've never felt it was the state's business to meddle in the affairs of businesses, or the lives of men and women simply trying to live. It's coercive by definition, and anywhere that there's a shred of "humanitarian" hand-outs, on the other end is the barrel of a gun extorting the money from someone else who has no need for the program being "funded".
     
  7. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    "The problem is not Capitalism" - my foot!

    You don't get the essence of it, so you wanna do the cosmetics...

    Money, accumulation of "stuff) [wealth] (money or "things" - it matters not) is just the appearance. Capital is the essence!

    The foundation of the world in that case is exploitation and domination. And that just won't do - the foundations are evil and everything else that follows is c@ap!

    P.S. "Anarcho-capitalist" = "wooden iron" type of notion... Capitalism is based on the strength of Capital one accumulates. With it comes authority. Real influence and authority. You can not be both anarchist and capitalist in the same sentence, that's just BS! Free market and all that is based on the authority of Capital. Which is what Anarchism is trying to overcome. Period. This is nonsense from the US... as per usual...:fish:
     
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  8. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    Not really: de-Americanising the world is much more than that, I would say... American way of living is this Hollywood story that never existed. Free markets never existed. Night-watchman state never existed (and you must have a body that will organise the exchange, traffic etc.)! So, it's a lot more than just that aspect of the whole story!!!

    On the level of principles, one must say that in that world Liberty (of ownership [domination of others] and freedom to exploit [Nature, others and one's own body]) is strong but Egality was only ever posited as broad and never really meant equality before the Law (which was always crooked towards the haves against the have nots [i.e. never equal chances in life!]) and Brotherhood (never mind Sisterhood!) was never ever really meant or felt!!!

    It's a cr@p world from the start to finish! Better than Feudalism but that doesn't say much...

    And "Communism" as we have seen it in CCCP or elsewhere - c'mon, who can possibly seriously say that this is what was meant when it was conceived?!? Get serious, FFS...
     
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  9. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    Each culture / country has a collective ego. By studying it one can determine special attributes of it, also what are the things a particular ego is lacking of (determined by the own history of the culture), so to say the collective pain.
    Also it is interesting by studying history how the collective ego tries to compensate the collective pain.

    At the US ego it is significant that it always creates a reason to justify exploitation / patronization. Therefore they constantly need an enemy stereotype.

    The ‘communist’, the Russian was sufficient until the cold war ended.
    It is now the Taliban.
    It is remarkable that the US ego has a huge inferiority complex it’s always lacking of things and feels very vulnerable. The idea to want to appear to be great presumes to feel little. The idea to want to be number one of the world alone indicates this complex.
    One can see that at elections and how they celebrate their president.
    This affects anything there also the media.

    The image they create of China is deluded as well. China has surely a big issue concerning human rights.

    But they have no huge inferiority complex that creates enemies all over the world justifying paranoid spying actions and false reasons to start wars. Having a closer look at the US history it is no way ‘better’ than China. The old enemy stereotype ‘communist’ is still alive at some places in the US.

    BTW: Not to appear as I would only have a look on other countries. When having a look at the Germans (ego and collective pain) one can notice that the way the Germans try to compensate pain is hard work and to be pedantic, lol. Similarities can be found at the Japanese.


    Finally something to the idea to control capitalism.

    It is a major illusion that it ever would work.

    It is an addiction, and an addiction cannot be controlled by addicted people. The addiction is an effect of a pseudo deficit.
    It is a basic human issue. Maturity has to develop in each individual that it can become a collective maturity.

    It is very very simple and nobody needs to study complex matters to get it.

    Only when I know that I have anything that is valuable already I can get over capitalism.
    This is no knowledge that can be grasped by the intellect…and since ‘one’ has anything that is valuable already, one-self, ‘it’ cannot be achieved.

    How many cycles of false identifications are needed until greed stops?
     
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  10. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    You (almost everybody even) can "realise" it all you want but until a different mode of life reproduction is found - Capitalism is still gonna be around to poison our lives, Earth and so on...
     
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  11. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    And now shall we wait for this different mode? :biggrin:

    To me reasonable is to work at oneself, to 'get' individual maturity. The sum 'will' appear as collective maturity.
    It appears to be a progress, but change happens ever now.

    To evaluate the social idea one can try this:
    Try to give to others that what you think you yourself are lacking of without to want something in return, give things you don't need (anymore).....or generally give something to others without to want something in return and have a look what happens. Cultivate such actions in your life and be patient. If the ego cries, try to ignore it, be aware that you try to break an ancient and tight pattern of re-actions.

    If one encounters (ego) resistance, do it anyway, be assured it is hard work. Only then it unveils what it is all about. It will be experienced, it cannot be thought. Ego mechanisms are prevalent, judge, ponder.... and say no. Social aspects as a theoretical idea will fail as long as ego mechanisms have the supremacy. This is clearly shown by history.
    Ego was an important step in evolution of mind, but the next step is to overcome it. This requires an active process.

    I have posted: "This is no knowledge that can be grasped by the intellect..." it cannot as long as the ego prevails.

    IMHO most great thinkers of the social idea have missed to point to this...an essay about social aspects is useless.

    Social aspects mean to kill the ego mechanisms hence there is resistance, reading and writing about does not lead to a change. :)

    When reading this blue bit and you think it is odd, BS or nonsense, be sure your ego is the instance that judges and will create excuses...... ;)

    I know that the terms I am using have different definitions somewhere, but I guess anybody can recognize what I want to express. A social idea needs to be lived.
     
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  12. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    What a load of b@#&%s.... :D :D :D Sounds nice, though...:p

    But who is gonna expose him/herself to that, all the time, knowing s/he has no chance to make an impact of any kind?:rolleyes:
     
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  13. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

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    Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.
    - Anne Isabella Thackeray Ritchie
     
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  14. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    Wrong thread of mine.... :D
     
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  15. nodnar

    nodnar MDL Expert

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    poison his lake and you poison him for a lifetime.. i do not see how deamaricanizing the world can help the victim at all, at the risk of sounding like an over-aged hippie, my problem is just that you need give the things that people need, like stability, peace, etc.. in their lives. so that they can build up their lives. in that sense americans tend to be counter-productive.. yes, just good old greed, i agree.. i would wish to see an attidude where we give people a chance, that is all. if i look at what american hedge funds and what they are doing in argentina, placing an entire nations`future in jeopardy, it leaves me disgusted. but.behind it all it is being sanctioned by a so-called democracy, and its judges. there is no harm in taking a human approach, imho, regardless of worthless ideologies.. just my 2 cents. [ yes, i said worthless, gorski. yen.. ;)]

     
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  16. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    How originates something unimaginable, or something that seems to have no effect at first sight? By doing it!

    The 'world' is no outward phenomenon that is separated from you. One can give stability and peace only when having stability and peace oneself....ego is exactly the opposite, ego is constantly unstable and attacking and plays different roles to attract attention.

    Change yourself or try something, do what you have to do and have a look how the world changes...the world is not absolute. To want to change a culture or a country or the world is absurd.
    This is conform to my life experience. :)
     
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  17. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    Yen, my ego is obviously inifinetly less interesting than your lively and devilish one.... :D :D :D
     
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  18. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    But seemingly interesting and special enough that you had to mention the difference. :D:p:D
     
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  19. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    Oh, no, that's "regrettably"....:p
     
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  20. moon510

    moon510 MDL Junior Member

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