@BlackWidow: After stripping away all of the irrelevant issues in your post, I found your reply. And that's all you needed to say. Have a nice day... :MJ
Well, I guess that you have been defeated. Not by me but by the government and politicians that you choose to not stand up to. Snowden has given us one of the keys to the many locks that the government has on us and you refuse to use it.
If you want to see it like that, it's fine by me. So, you take the key and use it. Maybe You could work for Jessie Ventura. Just one question though...What do I win if I "stand up" to the US government, as you put it. Do I win a trip to Gitmo? Having my bank accounts seized? Being placed on the no fly list of every US airport? I'm sorry...I just have to laugh. You and Stewox are both classic examples of how ignorant people are manipulated by Social and political engineering by being led to believe that they have the answers that could fix the worlds' problems. Did it ever dawn on you and the rest of you oafish ilk that you might very well have been manipulated by the CIA? Did you ever stop to think that Snowdens' actions may very well have been a plan orchestrated by the CIA to spy on the Russians? I'm not sayin'...I'm just sayin' iz all. :MJ P.S. Your avatar pic looks a lot like a pic posted by Skaendo.
Well, I don't think that Jessie Ventura has very much left to stand on. While he is a liberty and freedom loving American, I think that his time has passed and that is too bad. Freedom isn't enough? Isn't that what you signed on for when you entered the armed forces? Those things happen to innocent people everyday. Maybe people don't go to Gitmo everyday, but look up "civil asset forfeiture" and how the government seizes money from business owners who they claim are "structuring". And if you don't have your "national ID" with a tracking chip and your entire life history on it in the next few years, you wont be able to fly anywhere. So I'm the ignorant one because I look into things for myself and choose not to be duped by the government controlled main stream media that is going down the drain? I don't claim to have the answers, but I will stand up for my rights and the Constitution.
Not everything of course but a lot of the internet contains worthless babble (generally speaking) and what I mean worthless I mean to the grand solution, once you know the playbook it's simple and doesn't require much further to debate about other than to do action. I rarely listen to political debates locally since they are extremely primitive and ofcourse inside the left-right paradigm in which they run in circles and never get to the bottom of the issue, so you have many parties which are different flavor of the same thing. My experiences with forums in political topics are mixed but generally you have a few camps of stagnant people, that is, no matter what kind of story is being discussed, none of the participants will ever improve their established understanding, so the debate would never move anywhere since they cannot move out of their hardcoded comfort zone. The kind of discussion that what I'm saying would be pointless is this when politicans debate the economy, but nobody of them understands it how it works, nobody knows what the problem is, what's the point talking about solutions, so the debate is very non-cooperative and confrontational, creates drama (to feed the public for false perception of "something being done") if one of them understands how it works There would be much less worthless debates in the world if people were talking about politics like they talk about the weather, who can deny today is sunny or raining or 35,3 degrees ? Truth doesn't have sides. Explaining that and getting to the understanding however takes a lot of research, explanations, reading, analysis, all that is worthwhile, you ask, you cooperate with others, share, and it works with non-political topics, and because of the stress and effort needed for political discussion majority of population tunes out of it completely which obviously doesn't work in the long-run, ignorance is not bliss that's the biggest pack of garbage ever. These people might be happier in the short-run, but they will have no compass, they will be ones that will go ballistic and will have a rough awakening later, but, loaded with chemical agents they'll probably just roll over and love their servitude and not even realize it. In order to get to good information you need to put a lot of initial effort into finding the first bits, and it's really hard (personal life story) you have to I just happen to be someone who was too curious and banged my head against the wall doing it, I paid the initial price, I didn't had experience, I crashed in too hard, wake for long hours, zombie during the day, so I made a lot of mistakes, but I did it, I was in a distress, there was injustice done to me, I had other family issues, I wasn't a macho guy, and I was always mellow and wouldn't hurt a fly, I should be more manly but I guess everything I had to go through being like I was got me here and I wouldn't want to change anything. The general public while it has it's own petty issues is actually very "happy" but it's also a psychological illusion their mind does to make them cope, so they do all kinds of things that "make them happy, so they escape the reality, they appear happy but they are very ignorant, they will go into fights and argue around things that normally shouldn't be a problem at all. - entertainment (maintaining false "happy" illusion, timekiller purposes) - drunk/drug partying (culturally sanctioned self-harm and degenerate behavior for bragging, socializing and belonging-to-a-group purposes) - shopping run (waste money you don't have (loan) on things you don't need) - etc... (already a long post) All these things evenutally fade and reality tries to rush in like water into a submarine, so they need to keep doing it, they need to keep buying those waxing, silicon and water skin care products that do absolutely nothing and only damage skins natural healing capabilities, they need to keep buying those toxic sun screen creams that are a collosal dupe, they need to watch more and more movies and more music, to keep their mind occupied, with rubbish. But it's not really them, it's the system, it's the weaponized marketing. Finding bad information is very easy, all you have to do is to sit down like a couch potato and turn on the TV. All this in mind, the general public will not have the "time" (remember, everything they do is pointless), energy, attention span, nerves, to focus their mind in search of some good information that will help them in long-term, they don't even know how it will help them, it's so tricky, because in order to understand it you have to research it, but if you don't understand it, you don't see any point researching it. And this is complex so I won't go deeper into this, why and how and what is that makes it a positive outcome, it's subconscious half the time. The extreme cases are like totally isolated, they were set in front of the TV from their birth, all they know is celebrities, all they care about is when a celeb will tweet them back or follow them, a stroll around the nuclear californian beach, gee what a nice goody from japan, around to the malls and that's it, that's all some people know out of all there is out there. Most people I knew, they were so "manly" being mean and bullies, arrogant and full of themselfs, most of them have no idea about how world works, most of them follow the herd, the most "manly" man in the classroom, a macho like he was never had a girlfriend because he trolled them until they cried and laughed about it how "stupid" they were, what does he do, drinks, smokes and drives car drunk, then breaks his girlfrend's whole apartment and floor and has to pay around 1000 bucks for it, that's just one small example of these petty couple issues with the population, this is BS, I rather not have anyone around me at all than to deal with this or to listen to such worthless stories, there are more pressing matters to attend to, like stopping the technotronic era from exterminating this race, if not physically, but mentally, what's the point living like a slave, driving your stupid google car that goes on rails only where they allow it to drive. ---- Allright, in the middle through that post I wanted to better explain where exactly I get the "pointless discussion" from, so I decided to do an infographic to save me writting more text and should be much easier to understand. All that just to get to that point, you'll see it underlined at the bottom of the image. Sorry for big resolution otherwise it wouldn't be readeable.
well, stewox, i just spent the last half hour or so trying to read your post.it takes some time to relate it to my post you quoted. my post was short and clear enough. your post is an off-topic collection of subjective opinions and personal experiences. but i am a very patient person, so i read it all. I even managed to distill the essence of it. it is this; if you don't understand it, you don't see any point researching it. you could have saved yourself [ and me!] all the rest of it. have a nice day.
@nodnar: I'd like to modulate my original answer slightly, in light of new evidence. The world HAS changed because of Snowden. But not for the better. More and more, the lunatic fringe has started spouting about how "crimes" are being committed, how "they" are after your guns, and how the Constitution is being eroded. To Stweox and blackwidow: If You have proof that a crime is being committed, then take you proof to the supreme court and let the law do its' job. Apart from that, your rantings are meaningless, and are liken to a baby crying for something it can't have. The "olden" days are gone...get used to it. :MJ P.S. I still have my suspicions about the two of you. Call me paranoid, but I wouldn't be surprised if both of you were another member here on a vendetta, because a thread was removed. Because it looks like the both of your "personas" seem hell-bent on exacting vengeance against me. Not that I care, mind you. I have very thick skin. If that's so, you are one pathetic human being. Hell I'm not even going to suggest that you stop. Eventually, you'll trip up and show yourself, in which case, the ban-hammer will come down on you. And I'll be there, laughing at you.
You did had a point I crashed into this thread hard, I admit that, but after the last post I got to the point so that's all about that. I apologize I did not acknowledge this earlier. So if you still don't get it, i'll say it directly now, discussing this and ignoring everything else won't help much, so while you're correct I'm not being on the topic, this isn't really a big question, infact it's probably the most low priority topic when you want to talk about NSA and Snowden, that's why I had to explain the whole "magic circle" thing where you have public and politics asking themselfs the wrong kinds of question, they discussing this that will never get them anywhere, that's all. Now, there's nothing wrong for you guys to discuss this, it's perfectly fine, infact it technically is better than nothing, you're already miles ahead of the celebrity worshippers who would never enter into this field of discussion to begin with, it's free speech, fire away I'm not holding you guys back at all, eventually you got to decide if you do one thing over and over to death or you would want to figure out another approach. Practically, for all it's good, it may not actually be good if people get stuck in this focused mindset, that's what the system is about, focus, they're trying to focus on some celebrities being pregnant and all the rubbish, in around one topic and focus on that topic very strictly, if you challenge the established dogmas (they call it science) they will always try to keep it in that topic, since they can't debate you on the larger field, they don't understand it, or they know it but they're evil and will try to hide it (because they profit from it), the system is designed to make you focus on a dot, for example the medical system has a thousand different names for what they call "diseases" (term popularly implies germ theory) which are not random, not caused by germs, not genetic and certainly not irrepairable (except late stage cancer). They are mostly symptoms (not causes) of malfunctions caused from long-term suffocation, starvation and toxification of the cells that make your body, each "disease" they claim "needs" it's completely different "medicine" (poison) and a procedure and all the "science" behind it, "oh we have discovered the gene that makes alzheimers disease", it's just a load of bull, they don't tell you about epigenetics, the genes adapt to the environment, the environment is the food and resources and poisons, all established pharmaceutical drugs are treated as poison by the body, have absolutely zero nutritional and healing value, they are only symptom management agents, they hide and mask the symptoms, eventually you're still going to have other symptoms show up, or worse yet, none and you're just going to drop to the ground one day, high-blood pressure, diabetes, dementia, skin rashes, osteoporosis, these are ALL symptoms, of reversible malfunctions caused by chemical imbalances, the germ theory is a total fabrication, even if you have real viruses, parasites, germs, your body would be able to defeat it IF you have proper chemical balance, that's what nutrition does, defends the body, and you'd never need a vaccine in most cases (except bioweapons). But they trick you into taking chemicals that your body has no idea about, the body doesn't recognize them and it cannot effectively manage them, it treats them as invadors and tries to clean them out. And if everyone on the planet had good chemical balance, the multi-trillon dollar chemical>pharmaceutical>skincare industry would cruble beneath the stones in a matter of days. It's ALL marketing. What are you going to applying to your skin in the summer or already if you were on the sea side, i have some hot heat this week around here, but I don't do sun screens, I go out at 10-11 AM and hang around on the sun for 15-20 mins, that's around where the UVB's are strongest, UVB's activate certain cholesterols in your skin which turn into Vitamin D3 (a version of cholesterol), so the Sun is one and only major source of Vitamin D3, if you don't have it, you get all those unnecessary "diseases" (malfunctions), the UVB rays are only significant around 10AM to 3PM so why the heck would I avoid these hours and go out on the sun after 4 PM to only damage my skin with UVA which are present all day round with UVB's d , to get the same amount of UVB you'd had to stay on the sun longer thus getting more of the unnecessary UVA, and the shocker, 20 mins of full body exposure per day is enough (for white skin, blacker skin need much more), after that it only more damaging. Plus all the women you see with their chopsticks and botox and all the cosmetics, it's all 80-90% water, 5-10% wax, 2-5% silicons, preservatives, emulsifying agents, a miniscule amount of good zinc oxide, but in those low amounts it doesn't really make a difference, they know it, they're laughing all the way to the bank, I mean, if you go shopping and you find a cream that says "moisturizer", just replace that with throwing yourself under a 10 minute shower and you'll be better off. See where I'm getting at, skincare and cosmetics is a giant thing, millions discuss it every day around the internet, they will never ever solve anything, they think they're helping their skin, it's all an illusion, it doesn't work, it's 50 year old crude chemical industry technology, stuff like silicon is so cheap since it's mass byproduct and does absolutely nothing since it's inert, it just sits on the skin, so these girls put it on the skin and because it feels soft and squishy they think it's working. There are only a few things that can help the skin topically, no sorry, hyaluronic acid only helps internally (eating it, but not the cream), that includes injections, so: omega 6 fatty acids, fatty Vitamin C (tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate), zinc oxide, and Vitamin A (Retinol) and that is pretty much it, that's all that will help your skin topically, and it's not even practical for most people, fatty Vitamin C is very expensive, you're better off eating the ordinary cheaper Ascorbic Acid. What I was talking about up there is only visible when you research things as a whole, when you connect the dots, it is impossible to do that otherwise, it is what you call troubleshooting, and you're not suppose to stop or get stuck, your computer might freeze regularly, if you look only at the CPU, you'll never figure out it was the PSU, and even if you're better than a gossip magazine reader, and you look at the whole computer, you still won't find the problem if it was the electric company's fault. So, that's about it, probably ended up longer, I just used that as an example, on one hand doesn't everyone in any discussion fork into others, but nobody ever mentions getting back to it. There's one other thing, if I explain a side story inside a post being on topic (in connection to the posts before) I'm not actually de-railing, since when I finish, I close off getting back to the topic, but because the side stories just take long to explain because there's a lot of information, they get bigger because it's never a good practise to just half-bake it, either I explain the whole thing or I don't do it at all, if I wouldn't explain the whole side story then you'd had to post more posts replying to those side stories re-explaining and finishing them, so the response also matters, wasn't I just talking how people focus on the dots, if you don't focus on a side story in my post then the perception of a derailment would diminish, and where people understand a lot of general things, there's no need to explain side stuff. I don't think it was necessary to make me a new thread and try to pull you guys in just saying that, I summarized it as much as possible, and any other details i'll answer on PM, that's what they're for. Ofcourse stuff like this is only for a few posts, I have no intention to go on, hope it helped and my advice is just that you guys got to ask yourself many number of questions, not just this one, for most people, didn't change much, they had all their personals on clouds and social devices, they keep living like they were, infact the revelation might make a chilling effect so they would actually be hesitant to be politically outspoken, that's the negative effect, but overall it's good, and that's pretty much it about this, you guys need to move on into doing something about it. Snowden had the documents and hard proof so that's when the general public turns their brain on, not everyone, the general public doesn't understand circumstantial evidence much anyway, you just can't prove it to them as good as hard evidence (which is ofcourse scarse, the enemy controls or destroys it) - It did a lot of good, but is that going to be enough, focusing on educating people is a far better use of effort and time rather than to wonder all day if it did anything or not, not actually pointing to anyone in this thread, just saying. So, re-railment I guess.
On topic Four ways Edward Snowden changed the world – and why the fight's not over Privacy as last line of defense: Snowden’s revelations changed the world in 2013 How the NSA Spying Programs Have Changed Since Snowden The Snowden Effect: 8 Things That Happened Only Because Of The NSA Leaks
The supreme court is now corrupt and rewriting laws to suit its own needs and views. Look up how they dealt with a case involving obamacare. Direct quote from "chief justice" “Under all the usual rules of interpretation, in short, the government should lose this case. But normal rules of interpretation seem always to yield to the overriding principle of the present court: The Affordable Care Act must be saved.” So what did they do? They rewrote the law to suit themselves and save themselves from being unconstitutional. Now if your thinking that the supreme court has no power to rewrite laws, you are correct. That is supposed to be handled by congress. But that is no longer true now. The supreme court has been compromised and no longer can be trusted to follow the laws that are in place since they can just change them. But what are most of the people in the US worried about? Tranny Jenner, The Confederate Battle Flag and Gay and Lesbian rights. That's called "Bread and Circus". What about this president that writes laws and forces them upon us with executive orders, and 19 secret directives that change laws. A completely unconstitutional "trade treaty" that is going to move more jobs out of the US, and has much more in it than just "trade", like immigration, slavery and yes, gun rights? What about these islamic militants that are out to murder every christian? What about criminal illegal aliens that have been deported multiple times and still come here and commit murder, rape and other crimes? I have nothing against you personally Michaela Joy, Im sorry if I came off that way. I have no idea what you are talking about with a thread being removed. I am tired of this government serving corporations and not the people. These tyrants need to be stopped. It takes more than just 1 or 2 people to fix the situation that we are in. Your rights and freedoms are under attack. 'We the people' need to stop being lazy, and so connected to our precious devices and useless "social media" and stand up and fight for our rights.
And what has changed since Snowden leaked everything he did? Nothing. The courts have said that the NSA can still bulk collect everyones data. June 30, 2015: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/01/u...nsa-can-resume-bulk-data-collection.html?_r=0
@R29k That's all great and nice, I just think the problem is if this was enough, did the public made a big enough response, are they keeping up the pressure, or it's just going to be something normal a few years later.
Snowden made it clear the NSA and its enabler, the Federal Government, consider "We, the People" to be the enemy. "We, the People" - not to be confused with the entitlement-minded who would never vote to slap the hand providing free stuff. As the current regime paves the way to one-party rule with its open border policy, the entitlement-minded will become a permanent majority. At that point, America will flat-line from sea to shining sea and the grand experiment in democracy will be over.
It's the people that pay the salaries of everyone in government including the CIA! If you don't like them then remove them! You have two options: 1) You can make demands at election time, this is something that I have NEVER seen in the US. The electorate in the USA is so stupid that they sit there watching polls on TV about who did well at the debates. Then there is the majority that don't give a crap about policy or I sometimes wonder if their iq is so low that they don't even understand policy. 2) If they don't hear you let them see you. Go on the streets and make it clear what you want done. The problem is you have made corporate america into this God like entity that seem untouchable. They are not even close to untouchable, and there are way more of you than them. Money can only buy votes if you're incredibly stupid !
"People are stupid and dangerous in large numbers" In the USA, candidates are chosen by the Electoral College, a group of elitist a$$holes who think they know what's best for us. They choose the two piles of s**t that we have to choose from. So, Americans generally are forced to choose the lesser of two evils. The only way that the American people can be allowed to choose fairly is if we disband the Electoral College altogether. And yes, we have a wide spread of intellectual levels in the US. On one end, there are some incredibly brilliant people. On the other end, there are those whose IQ is somewhere between a tree and frozen yogurt. Somewhere in between, there's the average American, wondering what the hell just happened. You can spot those poor souls easily; they have a look on their faces like they've just been raped by a Unicorn. And then there's the Senior Citizens. A group of which I am a proud member. We have said it time and time again. This country is going to pot, and the young people are asleep at the wheel. They're too busy misusing the technology that some of us invented for their convenience and enjoyment. Oh We have. We have written our congressmen, signed petitions, and actually protested about their actions. The result is that it only got worse. As far as I can see, there are two reasons: 1 ) There's simply no staying power in the American masses with regards to changing our political future for the better. Many of us know -exactly- what's going on, but can / will act as long as it does not interrupt their favorite Thursday night TV show. You would not believe the moaning and anger when a State-of-the-Union address cuts into one of their shows. 2 ) The 'Apathy' syndrome. This one has two culprits in its' perpetration: A ) The Media, which is bought by big-business for the sake of furthering their political agenda. The people are bombarded with this bulls**t day after day after day. The result: They learn to ignore it. They prioritize their problems. What's more important right now. Feeding my family or trying to solve a problem that, in all actuality, was created by the laziness and greed of a few Americans. B ) Loud-Mouthed Political 'Animals' who go around screaming their heads off to an already disgusted group of people who, eventually ignore them and write them off as annoying, harassing lunatics. Do you think that preaching to the choir is helping? Don't you think We already know what you're screaming about? I ask two questions of them which ends up setting these people off even more, literally inciting them to a level of frothing rage that can actually be comical at times.(e.g. This thread...Q.E.D.) At the very least, it makes them look completely nutty. Here they are: A ) What do you propose to do about it? B ) Do you have a plan? This incites them because, deep down inside, they know that the American people are too wrapped up in their own problems or are too apathetic to actually do anything about it. They know that, even if they had a fool-proof plan, there would be too few people to join in, and it would ultimately fail. Some lunatics have even gone as far as resorting to violence to try to get their point across. This is what the constant whining about the political problems of the USA eventually spawns: Some nut case who thinks it's alright to send anthrax to the government, or blow up a federal building with a day care center in it. So. I will reiterate to you; Either come up with a plan that doesn't involve violence and / or weaponry, find someone who has such a plan and help them, or just shut the phuque up and keep your arrogance to yourself. Nothing personal to the two loonies who have hijacked this thread. :MJ
We've reached a truly remarkable situation: a grotesque mismatch between the American intelligencia and the American electorate. A philosophical opinion about the nature of the universe which is held by the vast majority of top American scientists, and probably the majority of the intelligencia generally, is so abhorrent to the American electorate that no candidate for popular election dare affirm it in public. If I'm right, this means that high office in the greatest country in the world is barred to the very people best qualified to hold it: the intelligencia, unless they are prepared to lie about their beliefs. To put it bluntly American political opportunities are heavily loaded against those who are simultaneously intelligent and honest. Richard Dawkins on militant atheism, (February 2002) From this video
@R29k: No one could have said it better. And you have presented proof. We have something called "The separation of Church and State" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state But, the religious beliefs of many politicians are melded together in their stances on political issues. That's because they represent a group of religious constituents. So the lines can get blurred. And the church plays on this. They tell their congregation to vote for or against a specific issue because "it goes against GOD or goes against Christ's teachings". :MJ
Michaela Joy, Your post (#155) is so elegantly stated that Im having a hard time understanding why you are not doing something more to try and save this country from what is going on. Even if it is just letting people know what you have seen and exposing the lies and deceit that is going on. The younger generation, aka the millennials need to be woken up out of their technological trance, get their faces out of facebook and twitter and see that they are heading for a world that big brother controls every aspect of their being. At this point this is what Im doing, I am trying to make people see that there is corruption in our political system right up to the highest position. And what they can do about it is vote them out, and vote with their dollars against the evil corporations like monsanto. But that is an entire other story since the TPP will make it against the law to sue monsanto, and make it against the law to label gmo foods. But Im afraid that this country is headed for another civil war since the government does do their business over the barrel of a gun. I really hope that it doesnt come to that but with the world economies crumbling the way that they are, including the US economy, it is a very likely scenario. Why else would the government be militarizing the police and doing large scale military training off bases in urban areas?
Stewox and xXBlackWidowXx. A question: What distinguishes you from those of who you say they need to stand up, to fight for their rights, to do something against it? Are you really convinced that this would be a way which could change something? What I can see here is just more verbal ego and the intellectual ability to conclude relations. This is and never was a point to convince ‘the other one’ or even to bring insight. More intellectual intelligence does not mean more power to convince. And ‘more’ is relative. How should such a fight be in detail? The entire construct of the social class (where the cause sits) who could become political successor is suffering from the same misidentifications. One is electing the lesser of two evils while anything becomes more evil after 4 more years. Just the same way you are arguing that they are wrong they will argue that they are doing it right (in their point of view). They will come with the same intellectual intelligence. They would try to convince you with ‘reasonable arguments’. When you have the chance to get enough insight then you recognize that right and wrong have no real value and hence are not arguable like you try in your excessive posts. It is all about one's identification with things, ones 'values'. The reason why they behave like they do and your reason is in essence the same. They are different points of views. You defend your identifications. The only differences are their identifications. Additionally the emotional undertone motivated by a sort of angriness against a representative (to make her responsible) of the country who is in negative focus makes clear that you are actually taking the same right as ‘they’ do….to defend their/your ideals. It is the same like to revolt against local laws, police, your government. The problem is they have enough ‘adherents’ and are powerful enough to convince you ‘otherwise’, ever had trouble with authorities because you did what you thought is right?! No? The illusionary power: The more I have (under control) the more I am. The more I can conclude the more I am right. Since one is identified with things one is vulnerable by the loss of them. There are competitors who are recognized as enemies. We need to know what they are doing, we need to spy on them, to protect what we have (are) = our things. We need to know in advance what’s going on to have advantage over others. This mechanism is active in any ego. In the collective US ego and in yours. One with awareness can just recognize that this is progressed in the US most. Finally observations and the facts neutrally. -The infrastructure of the internet -The intent to intervene in other countries matters. -The domination of US IT products and companies and their market politics - More than 14 billion for whatsapp -The stories which became public through media and also through Snowden -The stories of ‘my’ government and their behavior to the US -The DMCA issues against MDL and the behavior of US authorities, lawyers. The seizure of foreign servers by US homeland security.
These are just a few of the many pearls of wisdom that I've picked up in my life. I have applied them to my own life, myself, and my way of thinking. I have to say, they have served me well. I have gained the respect and admiration of many, and have made many friends. That's why I don't try to tell people what they already know. They tell me. They know, but there is just no good way of slaying this dragon with creating civil war. The collateral damage would be terrible. And the outcome would not be what "we the people" wanted it to be. Oh, there's another saying: Careful for what you wish, for you might get it. :The ubiquitous Crazy Lady. @Yen: As usual, you are the voice of reason and wisdom.