has our world changed, after snowden?

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by nodnar, Feb 17, 2015.

  1. xXBlackWidowXx

    xXBlackWidowXx MDL Junior Member

    May 21, 2015
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    I stand for what my country was built on, the US Constitution. There are groups out there that claim that the Constitution is a "living breathing" document. This is completely wrong. The US constitution cannot be violated by any politician. They are trying to take away the rights of the US people.

    Just today a Oregon Bureau of Labor and Industries commissioner said that a christian couple who owns a bakery and refuses to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple because of their religious beliefs can no longer talk about their religious beliefs. This is in direct conflict with the 1st Amendment, Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression.

    http://dailysignal.com/2015/07/06/sorry-slate-oregon-did-put-a-gag-order-on-those-christian-bakers/

    This kind of thing is what is going on in the US and happen everyday that need to be addressed.
     
  2. Michaela Joy

    Michaela Joy MDL Crazy Lady

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    #162 Michaela Joy, Jul 7, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2015
    To me, that's just using religious beliefs to cover up the fact that you're a bigot and a homophobe.

    I was born and raised Catholic, and I find the actions of those stupid people to be offensive.

    "Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged"

    That's what Christ said.

    The Constitution does -NOT- say anything about Gays and Lesbians being able to marry.

    About the Constitution: For -many- years, the Constitution was considered to be for White males only. Women and blacks, and Chinese share a dubious honor;They were, and in some places still are considered Chattel. So now, Gays and Lesbians are the new Whipping Boys (girls), taking the heat off of Women.
    You've -GOT- to be kidding to post that...Right? :laie:

    :MJ
     
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  3. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

    Feb 13, 2011
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    Two things:
    1) It's discrimination based on sexual orientation that the bakery people committed! If it had gone to court I'm sure the couple could have gotten a bigger payout. That is exactly what should have happened, rather that having all these nut jobs running around claiming the Freedom of Speech violation !
    2) Also you rightly have Freedom of Speech thru the First Amendment. However anyone has the right to not listen to you or be disturbed or harmed by you ! There are a whole list of clauses as you can see here. Freedom of Speech doesn't mean you have the right to go out and become a law breaking a**h*** This is what happens when you loosely interpret the law.

    Also the Second Amendment gives you the right to bear arms, but it also doesn't give you the right to go out and shoot people.
     
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  4. nodnar

    nodnar MDL Expert

    Oct 15, 2011
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    guns? how far we can get off topic?

    ach, paranoiacs.. `the constitution`.. it gives any us scatterbrain the right to own a gun..
    and there are more than 200 million of them..
    and they store them in such a manner that a three year old can shoot his parents, completely
    by accident, it was in the news, recently.. there is no excuse for for scatterbrains to own
    a gun. the gun lobby just wants to sell the hardware, and never mind who gets killed..
    they spend millions of marketing dollars to keep it up. well, now, imho, such a right for
    scatterbrains does not belong in a law of any civilized nation, at all. do you hear me?
    i said civilized.. think it over...
    i thank god, that here in holland owning a gun is strictly a nono.. because guns kill people,
    you know.. and it is always a scatterbrain who pulls the trigger.. just my two cents.
    that is what they are made for..
    bye the bye,, mods, i think it is about time that this thread be closed,..
    if only to prevent nausea on my part.. so how about it?
     
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  5. xXBlackWidowXx

    xXBlackWidowXx MDL Junior Member

    May 21, 2015
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    #165 xXBlackWidowXx, Jul 8, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2015
    You have no clue what you are talking about.

    Unlike race, gender, age, ethnicity or religion, sexual orientation is not a protected characteristic under current federal civil rights law.

    1st Amendment:
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    According to their beliefs in their religion, homosexuality is a sin and they shouldn't be forced to be accomplices to it.

    So by that logic, we should just throw out the Constitution and become the PC world that can say nothing without being labeled a homophobe or a racist or a bigot or some other politcally correct term that will be politically incorrect to say sooner or later.

    And Christ did not say, "Judge not lest ye be judged". That is a very common misconception. The actual verse in the bible is, "Matt 7:1 Judge not that ye be not judged." Big difference.

    Using only Matt 7:1 is entirely incomplete. This verse is not speaking to not judging at all, it is speaking to not judging unfairly or any other cheap and selfish way.

    And since we are bringing verse into it, what about;

    Oh, I forgot, it doesn't matter since we are getting rid of the Constitutionally protected rights.

    But I could care less if someone is gay or not as long as they are not pushing it in my face. The way I see it is that they cant procreate, (without the seed or egg from the opposite sex).

    In the end about the people who are having their 1st amendment rights being taken away, the bible says that homosexuality is wrong and it is their belief, so they should not be forced to do anything that goes against their god given, constitutionally protected right.
     
  6. Michaela Joy

    Michaela Joy MDL Crazy Lady

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    #166 Michaela Joy, Jul 8, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 20, 2017
    @nodnar: I think you're right. Time to end this stupidity.

    @Whatzuname: Bill Burr says it best. I'll let Him speak for me on this one. :)




    :MJ
     
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  7. ServicePack2

    ServicePack2 MDL Novice

    Jul 1, 2015
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    Lol @ Richard Dawkins and his American intelligencia. Is anyone taking this guy seriously?

    He reminds me of an episode of Star Trek. The alien life-form evolved to the point where it no longer needed a body. It was just a big brain floating above the Transporter Room deck of the Enterprise.

    The majority of intelligencia, including American scientists, won't hesitate to manipulate data to fit their political agenda.

    Just what we need - to be ruled by an elite class simultaneously intelligent, dishonest, and morally bankrupt.
    __________________
    Re: Christian bakers

    You would expect something like this to happen in Berkeley.

    I don't know, maybe it's just me, but it seems like the entire West Coast voted to be annexed by The Peoples' Republic of North Korea.
     
  8. Michaela Joy

    Michaela Joy MDL Crazy Lady

    Jul 26, 2012
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    @ServicePack2: We already are...They're called "Businessmen" and 1% of them hold almost 90% of the US wealth.

    :MJ
     
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  9. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    May 6, 2007
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    @nodnar
    I do not close this thread (moderate it). IMHO even sometimes offtopic it unveils a lot. Anyway I am sorry for your thread...
    BTW A few words to guns and weapons. To me one who is carrying a gun is insane at long as one does...

    @xXBlackWidowXx

    **Yen is taking one or two deep breaths**
    "I stand for what my country was built on, the US Constitution."

    You mean stand for = enforce the way you'd interpret it!

    Why do you hang closely on to something static that is old, was created out of a total different historical situation and has only a virtual (thought) value means was an old idea of a bunch of people that time.
    Why do you chain yourself to the static past denying changes...? Don't you think one needs to re-think what is still reasonable these times and what not?

    I think there would be no difference if you or the current authorities -NSA included- would rule the US. I notice of the same attributes. Intolerance, pride, infantilizing....you'd just control different social groups.
    I think the only thing that you don't like at your govt/NSA is that they can control YOU...violate YOUR privacy...

    When being at the same position you'd do just the same...

    "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."
     
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  10. Stewox

    Stewox MDL Junior Member

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    #170 Stewox, Jul 8, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2015
    Actions of one individuals do not arbitrarly render the right's of other responsible gun owners null. Plus that was simply their fault at poor personal security, a rare story pumped by the media, while those that involve guns saving people are largely ignored in the big networks, but local news reports about it all the time.

    Most of the gun crimes are gang bangers shooting each other. Overal gun deaths are pretty small and have fallen 50% in the last 15 years, traffic accidents and medical issues are lightyears ahead, should we ban cars ? Ofcourse not, only guns can be bad, nothing else right, because the public wouldn't go along with it, they will slowly introduce self-driving cars, at first it'll be "experimental", then it'll be trendy, later it will be mandatory. We have the answer, robots are smarter, but if you want your pedestrian detection feature, it's only 99$ per month - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8nnhUCtcO8 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2pwxv8rFkU - but don't worry, perception management will sort the view of google cars into a positivity.

    There is no such thing as second amendment in europe except in Switzerland, so I don't expect people to understand this internationally unless you've been researching this issue for a long time (watching 20min TV news is not research)

    Do you really thank god, or you thank Royal Dutch Shell for ever having to worry about it's grand empire being toppled.
     
  11. xXBlackWidowXx

    xXBlackWidowXx MDL Junior Member

    May 21, 2015
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    #171 xXBlackWidowXx, Jul 9, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 20, 2017
    I think that millions of farmers and ranchers would disagree with this. What are those who raise livestock like chickens supposed to do when a wolf or coyote comes onto his farm/ranch and eats all of his chickens that he depends on to provide for his family? What happens if a bear walks into your backyard? Or a Mountain Lion? Should we just shout go away at them?

    Forget that the US was taken with guns and our history has guns in it from day one, It is a proven fact that democratic controlled states/cities that have very strict gun laws have more gun violence than anywhere else. Look at Chicago over this past 4th of July weekend. They have the strictest gun laws in the nation and they also had the highest shooting/murders over the weekend. 55 shootings and 15 murders. But they have the strictest gun laws so how could this happen? I'll tell you, gun laws are for the law abiding citizens, not criminals who get guns illegally. Criminals don't care about laws, obviously.

    The second amendment wasn't even put there for farmers, it was put there so that if we ever have a tyrannical government we can stop them.



    The US Constitution is where all of our US laws come from. It is what our freedom is guaranteed by. I don't think that it can be interpreted in any other way than it was written. That is what the liberals, democrats and republicans think, that they can just rewrite it to suit their needs and the needs of the corporations and 1% that they serve. There is not one word that I would change in it. Every word in it is as relevant today as it was when it was written.

    Exactly, but it is not just me, they want to control everyone. That is why we have the Constitution and the 2nd Amendment so that that isn't supposed to happen. And this is why we (Americans) need to take our country back from these tyrants.

    Amendment 4: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

    This is exactly what the NSA does everyday to everyone in the world. Americans wouldn't be so pissed off if they were only spying on people outside of the US, because that is their job. Every country does the same thing. The US just happens to do it very well for some reason.

    Those who claim that the US Constitution is a stale old document has no idea what is in it, what it protects us from and the freedoms it gives the American people. I attribute that to a deliberate dumbing down of the people.

    Example; Common core math = 1+1=3. Who in their right mind would believe that? That is what they are pushing on our children, our future.

    Example; the Confederate Battle Flag. What a big joke. look up Mr. HK Edgerton. The whole Civil War "history" is a lie created by the people that won. The Civil War was about taxes, slavery didn't come into the argument until the very end of the war because it was a tactic used by Lincoln who wanted to send all the slaves out of America to Central America. History is written by the victors, be it truth or be it lie. And most Americans don't know anything about the history of the US.
     
  12. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    May 6, 2007
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    Even worse, the EU is still cooperating with them as if nothing happened...:)

    @xXBlackWidowXx

    I don’t think that the named potential dangers are justifying the US gun laws as they are.
    Come on humans have that much intelligence to protect their animals and themselves from bears by other measures….you cannot be serious with those as arguments.

    Also your statistics are no arguments. Guns and weapons are made to kill and/or to do harm, to create suffer. Each further gun that is in hands of human raises the probability of another’s death, harm, suffer. THAT is an argument.

    “The US Constitution is where all of our US laws come from”
    I don’t think all laws are conform to it and without inconsistencies. It is just a theoretical ideal.

    “It is what our freedom is guaranteed by”
    I don’t think that you know what freedom really means reading your posts.

    “Americans wouldn't be so pissed off if they were only spying on people outside of the US, because that is their job.”

    That would be a sign of ignorance.
    Let me try it simple…..
    In the world there are a few theorists, bad guys or whatever one names them. BUT the very most people are no criminals, theorists.
    That means to spy on people always affects (the very major amount) reputable, civilized people, right?

    And that is valid outside of the US and inside!
    And if you are worried about theorists and the day would come you get killed by them then it would highly probable happen in the US (assuming that you live most of your time there).

    To protect you from those freedom taking enemies your govt needs to spy on the entire world. o_O

    At the end..I want to thank you for your reply and I don’t mean that ironic, it is at least an opinion.

    As mentioned already it is not about who is more right…the only thing we’ve in common is that we both say the NSA is wrong….although with totally different backgrounds and arguments.

    I wish you that you get happy with your ideology and idea of life. :)
    One thing I can tell is true that anything that has no real value will unveil as this to you regardless of what I ever said.

    I stop to argue here with respect to nodnar's original topic. :)
     
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  13. ServicePack2

    ServicePack2 MDL Novice

    Jul 1, 2015
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    Well said, Comrade, but (afaik) your ideology has been an abysmal failure everywhere it's been tried.

    Rather than envy people their wealth, material possessions, and their position in life, why not develop a work ethic and emulate them?

    Just out of curiosity, to what percentage of a successful businessman's income do you feel entitled?
     
  14. Michaela Joy

    Michaela Joy MDL Crazy Lady

    Jul 26, 2012
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    @ServicePack2: So you believe that businesses should be allowed to do business without paying -any- taxes?
    Because, despite the repubican party line, this is the reason that the US is in financial ruin, and one of the reasons why the middle class has all but disappeared.

    Personally, I don't envy -anyone-. I'm retired. I have enough income to say phuque off to the lot of you.

    And why is it that people like you are so quick to cast aspersions and lay blame on others for their own folly. Do you personally know me? Have I said this to you directly?

    You have the audacity to defend the assholes who have driven the US economy into the ground and created this mess that we're in?!?

    Just out of curiosity...

    :MJ
     
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  15. xXBlackWidowXx

    xXBlackWidowXx MDL Junior Member

    May 21, 2015
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    By this logic, you cannot only take the guns away. You have to get rid of guns, swords, knives, fireworks, baseball bats, tazers, hammers, screwdrivers, etc, etc, because they all have the potential to harm and even kill. Then you will have to get rid of anything that a person can pick up and hit or throw at another person because it has the potential to kill/harm. Then you have to do that to every person in every country in the entire world. This is how it works. If you take away the guns, there will be something to replace it, and then you'll have to ban that as well, and then something will replace that........

    The 2nd Amendment is in our Constitution to protect us from a tyrannical government as much as it is to protect us from the bad elements in our society. You cannot take the guns away from law abiding citizens. That will leave the criminals to be the only ones that have them and where does that leave us? Right where Chicago was over the 4th of July weekend.

    You go push that gun grabbing rhetoric on the Mexican cartels, the gangs in LA, Chicago, NY, etc, ISIS, the people bringing guns into this country illegally, and on and on. And when you get all the criminals to give up all their guns, only then can you push that gun grabbing rhetoric on me, a law abiding responsible gun owner who has never shot another human being or even thought about it in the 40+ years that I have been around guns.

    The dirty truth is that here in the US you are more likely to die from being misdiagnosed and wrongly medicated in a hospital than you are from a gun.

    So do you throw out the whole crate just because of one rotten apple? My opinion would be an eye for a eye, if you murder someone then you should succumb to the same that they had, be it a gun or a knife or whatever.

    You are pretty close to correct since obama has written over 100 executive orders (this is more than all other presidents combined), and secret presidential directives, and is negotiating secret deals with other nations. Again, this is one of the things that need to be stopped.

    And I know what freedom is. Freedom is me walking around with my AR-15 slung over my shoulder and my Glock .40 on my side, it is being able to say anything I want (short of a few things that would be considered threatening) without being thrown in or under a jail, it's being able to choose how many children that I can have, it's not having my government telling me what I can or cant do (within the law), it's being able to choose what religion I choose to believe or not believe in, it's being able to drive anywhere in this once great country without question.

    All these things are in jeopardy right now, and I have the freedom to stand up against it and fight for my rights and the right to do so.

    Sorry, I don't quite understand what you are trying to say here.

    I mean no to disrespect anyone including nodnar or his thread, but the title of the thread is "has our world changed, after snowden?" which is a very politically charged question that has as many layers as a rose has pedals.

    What it has changed is not a whole lot except that snowden has exposed that the NSA/US government is infringing on the 4th Amendment of the US Constitution (among many others) by collecting personal information (meta data & the very phone conversations) on every American citizen (and supposedly as many other people from other nations as they can).

    I cannot speak for the world as I am not a worldly traveler, but I have traveled may miles across the US. I can only speak of what is going on in the US. I would expect that if someone from another country were to chime in then it would be directly related to their respective homeland.

    I know that these posts are long and probably tl;dr, but I believe in my country and the Constitution. Now if we could get rid of the crooked politicians and stay the hell out of everyone elses business then I think that we would all be better off.
     
  16. Michaela Joy

    Michaela Joy MDL Crazy Lady

    Jul 26, 2012
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    I couldn't agree more. We also need to restructure our Tax codes, enact Tort reform, and start taking economic steps that will both create jobs and offer a sensible minimum wage.

    :MJ
     
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  17. nodnar

    nodnar MDL Expert

    Oct 15, 2011
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    well, yen, so far so good.
    i am perfectly happy with what you do or do not choose to moderate.
    and i understand that one cannot moderate blunt stupidity..
    so i will just vote with my feet, walk out, and leave the stage
    to those who feel that the us constitution is the world`s constitution.. ;)
    just i leave with a gnawing feeling that this thread ran away from me.. ;)
     
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  18. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    I have chosen so, because I do not want to censor different opinions even though they are hard to comprehend. :)

    My reply just to clarify what I have already posted...

    "By this logic, you cannot only take the guns away."
    The logic relies on the fact that weapons have no other purpose than to kill/harm/create suffer and fear!
    The logic that you apply is unreasonable. The world is full of objects that can potentially harm, but their common purpose is another. Take 2 kg of salt and you die. Salt is usually used to have our streets free from ice/snow and for cooking...:rolleyes: and is also essential for our body...


    Freedom.
    What I mean is that freedom is independent from everything and requires nothing. It is based on self awareness which is seldom but growing.

    "Sorry, I don't quite understand what you are trying to say here."
    Ignorance. To condemn when one spies on the own nation while being neutral even saying it is their job when one spies on others. It implies that one's nation don't have potential 'bad boys' while the others might have.

    The event of assault, where is it most feared? In the own country. This is used as argument to spy there where the citizens to be protected live, in the own country....
    The actual issue is not seen due to ignorance. They justify to spy on all while only very few might be theorists. This applies also outside the US. One sacrifices the right of all of privacy and other democratic means for a potential harm by a few which is artificially held alive through propaganda.
    With this they keep their power and the right to suppress/control others alive.
    That has nothing to do with what they say they protect, it has nothing to do with freedom!

    "Now if we could get rid of the crooked politicians and stay the hell out of everyone elses business then I think that we would all be better off."

    It is an illusion to think one could convince them otherwise. One can be a perfect example by living another way of life.
    With enforcing there is no chance.
     
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  19. xXBlackWidowXx

    xXBlackWidowXx MDL Junior Member

    May 21, 2015
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    So guns cannot be used to hunt? Hunting has been practiced since man was created. Guns are just another tool in a long line of successors that is used to get the job done. Granted you are using it to kill another creature, but you are also feeding yourself and possibly others. Or should we all just eat the McDonalds GMO crap? Or pay the ridiculous prices for organic food at the grocery store?

    "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." -Thomas Jefferson

    The US only fears attack from within for 2 reasons; 1 The citizens do not like what the government is doing and are going to revolt, for which they (the government and politicians) should be very afraid. 2 They let every criminal into our country from all over the world and when they gather and commit crimes, oh don't worry we wont deport you anymore. And when they do end up deporting them it's only a matter of time until they enter the country illegally, again and again.

    So stop the NSA from spying on everyone and shut them down all together. Does that mean that China is going to stop spying on anyone? It seems to me that you are very biased against America and what we believe in. Take the guns, but everything else is ok. Stop the NSA but 3PLA is ok. Do you think that the entire world is going to stop spying on each other just because the US doesn't do it? No, because there are evil people that are going to do evil things. If you think otherwise then you are completely delusional. Not that I condone evil people or what they do, but with no evil there is no good. Yin and yang. So since there is always going to be evil in the world, I would like to know that there is a good that is keeping an eye on it.

    That is infringing on my freedom to chose the way I wish to live my life. Why should I have to change what I want to do because someone else says that "This way is better"? When I am perfectly happy with the way I do things. I'm not doing anything against the law, and I am not hurting anyone else.
     
  20. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    Weapons are not completely forbidden here. One can use some of them for sports and to hunt. But there are strict requirements and one needs to train before one is allowed to use them.

    One should not forget about the psychology of carrying a gun. It also creates an illusionary idea of superiority.

    I am not biased against the US, please do not generalize, there are many different people who live in the US. Also here at MDL are many people from the US which are friends also I have some in my private life. :)
    When you read my posts closely I always try to show up a global mechanism in humans that is IMHO responsible.

    However you are right at one point. I think to have recognized that capitalism has reached a point in the US which is not healthy...I have described it as The more I have the more I am which is completely illusionary.

    I can nothing say about the Chinese. It are US authorities who are violating my privacy collecting data. It are US lawyers and companies who are requesting takedowns at MDL and it are US authorities who seize foreign servers. It are US tech products / operating systems on the market who have backdoors to spy. (Bold because not generalized ;))
    The more (data) I have got the more I am...:rolleyes:and with those data I can make even more money. Speculation on the right shares by collecting private consumer data...guess why whatsapp has been sold for 14 billion!

    "One can be a perfect example by living another way of life."
    I guess you have misunderstood this.
    When one recognizes that something is wrong, then it is the better way to live it different (to change oneself), better than to enforce the own way with violence (to try to change others with violence).
    As example. When I know that "the more I have the more I am" is illusionary, then I live this way. I do not force others to do the same. I live the 'idea' and communicate that by living it.
    That doesn't work through a forum, though. Here some words about are needed. :)
     
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