How much do you know about your drinking water?

Discussion in 'Serious Discussion' started by Michaela Joy, Sep 30, 2016.

  1. JFKI

    JFKI MDL Expert

    Oct 25, 2015
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    Used to be a highly industrial area, not so much anymore.

    Frankly my nose is garbage. Too many years of working too close to degreasers.
    After a few refills of that propur though it does smell like pool water.

    So you are telling me to boil my filtered water so I can make coffee in a keurig ? :laie:
    Ain't happening.
     
  2. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    #242 Yen, Aug 23, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2017
    Erm no lol.
    I wanted to say at least. I correct that..:)
    When you use properly filtered water for cooking and drinking all the time it doesn't matter.

    Boiling it 'open' has the advantage that it removes what makes you headache (I still think its chlorine although the analyses report makes one surmise that there must have been such industry around)
    And it's a process that always works (no filter that can become exhausted) and one that can have no microbiological issues.
     
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  3. Michaela Joy

    Michaela Joy MDL Crazy Lady

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    @Yen: If JFKI was a mechanic, then he was exposed to many petroleum compounds, some of which are carcinogenic.

    Perhaps he developed a sensitivity to them. I've seen this with cleaning products.
     
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  4. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    #244 Yen, Aug 23, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2017
    Maybe. I don't know if there are known cases. The amounts of VOCs are small, although noticeable. He could smell chlorine from the filter so I suppose its concentration is far higher.
    A known sensitive reaction is eczema / skin response.

    I know that Nitrobenzene (and other arenes) are carcinogenic and / or teratogenic, halogenated solvents are not much better and actually people get headache when inhaling organic solvents. I know that MEK causes headache when inhaled, I know that from own experience.

    Later I try to get access to our database concerning VOCs / organic solvents...I want to know which ones are most harmful...

    Headache can be a sensitive reaction of course. There are people who get headache when the weather situation changes...probably air pressure.
     
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  5. Michaela Joy

    Michaela Joy MDL Crazy Lady

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    @Yen: I've had experience with MEK (2-Butanone).

    Here's an article showing how it's a precursor which "helps" a human absorb other organic toxins.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2078137/

    From that article:

    "The acute health effects of organic solvents reflect their central nervous system effects and include headache, dizziness, and light‐headedness progressing to unconsciousness, seizures,
    and death. Eye, nose, and throat irritation may also occur with exposure to solvent mixtures"

    Some of the most frightening compounds are the organo-metalic compounds (dimethylcadmium,dimethylmercury, methyl and dimethylbromide)
    As much as 2 drops on your skin is a death sentence, with death taking place over the span of 2 to 3 months, sometimes less.

    There are very few places where these chemicals are used in industry; sometimes they appear as by products of organic reactions, depending on what you're doing.

    Phosphorus is also used to make some of the most toxic chemicals on the planet. Organo-phosphates can be lethal.
    Sarin is a prime example of both phosphorus and fluorine working together to become lethal.

    Most of us know about it because it's been used in just about every movie plot imaginable.

    But most people do not know about Phosphine or Aluminum phosphide. Or chlorine trifluoride.

    Here's a video that will give you nightmares.
     
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  6. JFKI

    JFKI MDL Expert

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    #246 JFKI, Aug 23, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2017
    That reminds me of when I worked as a trailer mechanic for a modular housing company.
    The trailers needed painting and I got the task of sandblasting them prior to the paint.
    The compressor was old and had been rebuilt several times, anyway I was blasting away when a streak of black started running down the inside of my air fed hood.
    What had happened was the hydraulic oil in the air screw super heated, and I was about 100 feet downstream of it.
    The next day I had a hard time breathing and asked the foreman if there was anything other than sandblasting for me to do, he said no, and I got back in my car and went home and started researching. I knew the company owner was cheap and I also knew that the hydraulic tank was filled with aviation hydraulic oil because the company had a surplus they needed to get rid of cheap. Guess what one of the main components of aviation hydraulic fluid is... Organophosphates.

    I asked the safety guy for help, 2 days later I was fired... On my birthday no less.
     
  7. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    :eek: Good to know we have some "good s**t" when aliens come to conquer Earth...:rolleyes:
     
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  8. ancestor(v)

    ancestor(v) Admin
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    My two cents... yes, some chemicals are very toxic, but you wouldn't encounter them under normal conditions. Where should they come from?
    Phosphides are used e.g. as rodentizides. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_phosphide#Rodenticide

    Chlorine trifluoride is so reactive, you wouldn't encounter it too long under normal circumstances ;)

    Some organophosphates are just untoxic whilst others are highly toxic. The Germans had some insecticide which could be used as a chemical warfare agent right away: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parathion
    Luckily these highly toxic compounds are banned today. OK, volunteering as a paramedic, I've seen one fatal ingestion of an organophosphate by a professional gardener. It was intentional though, committing suicide. He drank about half a bottle of an organophosphate concentrate, calculating from the concentration given on the bottle we estimated he ingested a maximum of 200 g active ingredient, which of course is fatal.

    The lethal dose can be used to estimate how much of a toxin is actually toxic, i.e. lethal.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethal_dose

    But enough of the deadly stuff... even if a lethal dose isn't reached, this doesn't mean things won't be harmful.

    I'd try to check three things when it comes to contamination:

    1) Can the analysis be reproduced? Will another lab find the same results, at least in orders of magnitude?
    2) Are the neighbours affected as well? Or is just your water contaminated?
    3) If there are some specific compounds you can try have your blood examined, e.g.
    http://www.nmslabs.com/tests/Chlorobenzene--Blood/1110B
     
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  9. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    I know organophosphates in relation to the so called aerotoxic syndrome also originating from hydraulic oils there (aeroplane).
    There are a lot of (off topic) horror stories.

    Ancestor(v) posted a valid point.
    Before making efforts on water analyses and probable costs for it, at acute symptoms such as headache when drinking just a few cups of unfiltered water it would be more reasonable to get a blood analyses and talks to neighbours if they encounter similar symptoms etc...also a test for chlorine as a probable cause can be reasonable.
     
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  10. JFKI

    JFKI MDL Expert

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    Not really water related, but if someone wants an interesting read of how organophosphates, and infrasound (aircraft taking off, etc.) unofficially played a role in the Mad Cow and Creutzfeldt/Jacobs epidemic...
    https://web.archive.org/web/20060206054344/http://markpurdey.com

    That is just one starting point of many.

    PS. Mark Purdey is now deceased and his website has gone bye bye except for the wayback machine.
     
  11. Michaela Joy

    Michaela Joy MDL Crazy Lady

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    What must be looked at is the fact that these chemicals do not break down easily. And when they do, often times they become two or more toxic chemicals.
    These chemicals end up in the water or soil, which ends up polluting the eco-system. the genetic damage alone is ongoing, often for decades.

    Chlorine trifluoride is used as a cleaning agent in semiconductor manufacture. Phosphine is used as doping agent in that same industry.

    So they're more common place than you may think.

    We New Yorkers have seen more than our fair share of toxic superfund sites. Between toxic chemicals and radiation, I wonder how any of us have survived at all.
    The reason I mention this at all, is because of the common medium of transport; our drinking water.

    There have been independent studies that show that toxic metal levels are 13 times the norm in NYC drinking water.

    @JFKI: The problem of bovine spongiform disease is mitigated two-fold.

    1 ) Do not mix cow brains with other parts of the cow.

    -and-

    2 ) Do not feed your cattle feed mixed with meat byproducts.
     
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  12. JFKI

    JFKI MDL Expert

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    Yes, but Mark Purdey went a few steps further and postulated that the initial cause was a mix of organophosphates, Magnesium or Manganese I forget which, and infrasound which initially caused the folding of the prions.
    He actually traveled the world and found clusters of CWD in locations which had all three of these elements.

    By doing so he was labeled a crackpot by governments and the scientific community.
    Personally I think his work, which is documented somewhere on his website, has merit.

    However this is going a bit off topic so I will stop there.
     
  13. Michaela Joy

    Michaela Joy MDL Crazy Lady

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    @JFKI: None of this is really off topic, because the runoff ends up in our water.
    The latent effects of this slop is what's causing these problems.
     
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  14. JFKI

    JFKI MDL Expert

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  15. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    #255 Yen, Aug 24, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2017
    We should be careful when it comes to a single person's 'intention' and then read carefully.
    Some tend to search for 'arguments' against the establishment. But that comes with own bias because we have an idea already what we want, we want something 'against' the establishment!


    Organophosphates played a role in his hypothesis. Purdey himself had assumptions only.

    There is absolutely no evidence that Phosmet or derivatives have caused BSE.
    Purdey then modified his hypothesis by naming another additional condition like high manganese and low copper yield of the soil....
    Purdey did not deliver any practical biochemical research, though.
    He frequently spoke of might.... or is capable of...


    This bit disqualifies him much, though.
    Manganese +IV is very unstable in human body and silver only exists as silver I and II (there is no silver III and IV!!!) not to mention the relation as a pathogen

    I mean when I try to go against the ‘establishment’ then I cannot afford to have major lack of knowledge at simple science!


    Today people assume that organophosphates as a factor (used that time to fight the botfly) probably can have a benefit for an infection and / or shortens ICP of prions diseases
    Purdey later assumed relations to Alzheimer's disease.

    Our workgroup had been involved in Alzheimer's disease research from 1988-2002.
    Until today it is not clear what triggers it.
    The time when I had been involved the NMDA (N-methyl-D-aspartate) receptor and then the Aluminium Ions played a role.
    The Phase IV compound I had synthesized had actions on the NMDA receptor.


    Chlorine trifluoride and Phosphine are not present somewhere in nature due to their high reactivity. What can matter are their products, though.
     
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  16. Michaela Joy

    Michaela Joy MDL Crazy Lady

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    I remember hearing about that study. It caused a big scare about aluminum cookware and its' possible connection to Alzheimers disease.

    To this day I refuse to use aluminum cookware.

    @Yen,Ancestor(v): I'm certainly not worried about an acute exposure. You'd never survive a ClF3 exposure, because it burns just about everything. Not to mention the HF that's produced as it breaks down.
    What I'm concerned with is long term exposure to any man made chemical, and the effects it has on physiology.

    We can't eliminate it completely; we live in a technology oriented society. But we can take steps to protect ourselves.
    The first place we start is with the things we put into our bodies. Food and water.

    If you live in a place where you can grow your own food, then you can be very sure of what you're eating.
    Otherwise, you have to take what's available based on what you can afford.

    The same thing holds true with water. The municipalities will follow state and federal guidelines with respect to water purity.
    If you want more purity, you have to take steps to do it yourself.

    @ancestor(v): I have the utmost respect and admiration for you. On eastern Long Island, just about all Fire and EMS are volunteers.

    Some of the finest people I've ever met.
     
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  17. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    #257 Yen, Aug 24, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2017
    Aluminium attracted at least 2 different times negative attention.
    In the 90s related to Alzheimer and recently breast cancer....

    The former (panic) came from a published study of creating plaque where own body Aluminium is involved.

    The latter led to a boom of 'new' antiperspirants without Aluminiumchlorohydrate. I have seen at some it has been replaced by Zirconiumchlorohydrate which is actually more 'unknown'...
    The 'assumption' came from the fact that breast cancers (lumps) are frequently located towards the armpits :rolleyes:....

    Be careful when some 'news' are coming from food chemistry. Acrylamide is another one to panic people.

    Anyway I also would not use Aluminium there where other materials are even 'better'...cookware...when Aluminium and acidic food come together Aluminium becomes Al3+ which is soluble in water. The stronger the acid the more.
     
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  18. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    This!!!

    https://www.theguardian.com/environ...erm=242454&subid=20906735&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2

     
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  19. Michaela Joy

    Michaela Joy MDL Crazy Lady

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    @gorski: And now with the hurricanes that are hitting the US, the water quality is going to be much worse.

    Thusly why I've been saying how important it is to get a good water filter.
     
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  20. Femfatale

    Femfatale MDL Novice

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