If a tree fall in the forest --- does it make any sound?

Discussion in 'Serious Discussion' started by sid_16, Jun 8, 2012.

  1. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    May 6, 2007
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    "If the world is an illusion created by the mind then anything is possible. We are effectively God."

    There is a subtle but important difference.
    And since many of us have Christian values in us, forgive me when I post religious contents.
    We are not god, our real identity is not different to god = the Self.
    Christians say one shall not have images of god.
    This is no order, behind this there is a fact. As soon as one thinks about the Self, one has to create an idea of it. This is the objectifying process of the real subject and is never possible.


    One 'I' idea creates an idea of it, so one will ever exclude something. The Self is 'I' and non 'I' , everything AND nothing.
    Christianity has no further way to say than one shall not have images of god.
    But when I go to Buddhism / Hinduism, THEN they say the 'Self' is the one without the 2nd. NO objects to differentiate, then there cannot be god and humans, who should differentiate them?
    But this is not liked in Christianity since they would have to admit god does not exist. When one isolates this statement it gets a falsified meaning.
    Our real identity is not different to god. (is IMHO a good expression).

    I encountered this 'issue' after I have read some things about Buddhism and came back to some Christian stuff.
    To me ever clear was and is that the essence of the religions must be the same, so it must be the human mind that creates inconsistencies.

    This objectifying process is topic of the entire Adam and Eve story.
    The garden Eden represents the home, his home, the Self. He has created man and woman of HIS likeness.
    So here too: our real identity is not different to god!

    Then they have eaten from the 'malum' (this means fruit tree and 'bad'), the fruit of the forbidden tree.
    From this point they recognized each others as two different individuals and they noticed to be naked.
    To eat this fruit means to turn away from him / the Self and to identify with the body (objects).
    So god had thrown them out of garden eden to live on earth as humans with all the pain and conditions objects in time have. 'God' did that because 'they' have denied him 'the Self' to be their false idea (bodies), they have 'forgotten' who they actually are (him= the Self).

    This is my brief interpretation of the Adam and Eve story of humans and it is just another valid way to express the reality.
    It makes no sense to fight about: the humans from the apes versus the bible story.
    It are two different explanations of one reality.


    "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you”"
    'His' kingdom is within us. When one prays he discards his 'I' idea (false identity), he turns towards the Self. A honest prayer is not different to meditation. One concentrates his mind to a few thoughts only (the prayer and still the idea of 'him). Then the one hands over oneself (the 'I' idea) to 'him'. This devotion to the Self calms the mind and unveils it (the Self=god).

    This is a honest prayer one hands oneself out to god. (The sentence alone is to many of us 'too religious'), but that what is Real needs actually no religion to exist. So I can try to figure a another meaning.

    As already mentioned inconsistencies come from human's mind and not from 'the things' such as Religion, science.
    To wish something from 'god' in a prayer is no honest prayer. The contrary will happen:
    The mind gets not calm, the 'I' idea will be strengthened. And later the one has to notice that his prayers 'wishes' had not been heard, the one denies the existence of god and probably thinks he his cruel.

    OK, I stop here again, sorry for a little off topic, but this seems to be important (to me) to post this subtle difference since god had been addressed at the above quote.
    And my idea in my heart is to unify science and religions. :)
     
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  2. SOCRATE_MMXII

    SOCRATE_MMXII MDL Expert

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    There is a difference between the act of praying and meditation. In the beginning there was no difference, but today, there is: the act of praying is external [the prayer sees GOD outside of him as an external entity]; meditation focuses within.
     
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  3. redroad

    redroad MDL Guru

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    When the veil is lifted there is no way to discern what is you and what is me .. Where we meet is where all traces of self have been surrendered to Self yet we return to our perceived world of separation. The discussion of the experience , sometimes, can take on the characteristics of one who has visited an amusement park and is excited to share with others their experience .. I think that we can agree that the method of how the self became surrendered has very little significance as long as it is experienced .. We all come from such varied experiences of self so something universal is not likely to be embraced universally .. For me, my journey began in a far more selfish way .. I saw an elder in our tribe who was in this world and yet not of it .. My experience was I want what he's got, so my journey began..
     
  4. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    I don't know if we can say that generally. Actually there are no instructions how to pray. It seems to me when watching people praying (temple church) they are withdrawn into theirselves.
    This is also a difference there are many different kind of meditations, but to each there are detailed instructions.
    Well finally there is no barrier between 'outside' and inside', but I'd say since we can find in the bible 'The Kingdom of Heaven is within you' to pray like that is to turn inwards.

    Yes that's right and funny, amusement park. :)
    When I was 20 and (had to) go to church I recognized some euphoria in the eyes of some, but I could not understand why.
    It's fascinating that each of us has his own story and they have a great variety. Anyway the experience itself needs no words.

    I met a group of people for meditation some years ago to practice. And to those who have experienced what happens when the mind is still they also struggle with words and finally stopped to talk about, but everyone who has experienced the same already knew what they wanted to say.
    Amusement park with rollercoaster. :) Can be sometimes shocking. The moment when a split second the 'I' idea is out of mind the first time. To fall into a sort of limbo.
    It's also fascinating that the most intimate topic to discuss is the Self. Anyway it's to all the same and actually the most unspectacularly 'thing' that exists. It is the mind that creates the amusement park after.
     
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  5. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

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  6. SOCRATE_MMXII

    SOCRATE_MMXII MDL Expert

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    #126 SOCRATE_MMXII, Jun 24, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2012
    A good inspirational movie
    Jay Weiner - Infinity The ultimate Journey Beyound Death


    OK, but we have to remember that Nassim explains physics for all of us. The thing that his off by a few figures is pointless. In the big picture he's right.

    Ponder this: in school we don't study sacred anatomy, numbers, golden number, sacred physics or how to know ourselves?
    No. We study s**tty math and physics: why is the apple falling? 'Cause gravity! I mean who the heck cares why the apple is falling? What's that going to help me with? Nothing. In history we learn about massacres and s**t called "great revolutions" and for what? Just to feed the troll - that's our EGO.
     
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  7. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

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    In your opinion he is right his theories are downright ridiculous.
     
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  8. redroad

    redroad MDL Guru

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    #128 redroad, Jun 26, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 20, 2017
    I thought this fit here

     
  9. bludgard

    bludgard MDL Member

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    aa long as it doesn't fall on my head; who gives a fr***? lol

    :cool:
     
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  10. neomatrix

    neomatrix MDL Junior Member

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    Off Course, it will, anything that will touch any surface will make a sound.
     
  11. burfadel

    burfadel MDL EXE>MSP/CAB

    Aug 19, 2009
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    If nobody is there, it still makes a sound, its just you aren't there for your ears to convert the vibrational energy into something your brain can interpret. It's exactly the same as 'is there light if nobody is there to see it', of course there is! but again, what you see as light is just your brains interpretation of the EM. It's the same with colour, colour is just an interpretation of specific frequencies. You could more-so argue that there is no such thing as colour than the argument of does a tree make a sound if nobody is there to hear it :)
     
  12. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    The entire issue depends on if the 'complete process of hearing' requires someone that hears. ;)
    If not, then one could think anything is happen somewhere. But what is special then when a tree is falling?
    "It's exactly the same as 'is there light if nobody is there to see it', of course there is!"
    How do you know? :D I mean who is witness of it when there is nobody? There is no witness, so one could also say there is no light.

    I don't know if your light is on in your room atm, because I cannot see your room. How should I make a statement about?

    I guess it's how the people think perception works.

    Idea 1:
    Lets say we have a movie. A movie contains fixed contents, fixed actions and fixed dialogs.
    So if one watches the movie one time, the one knows the movie and its contents.
    Let's say in the movie there is that falling tree. So I heard a sound when I watched the movie.

    So when one is asking now does this tree in the move make a sound when it falls, everybody can say yes.
    Everybody can because when have watched the movie the first time there had been someone perceived the sound one time already.

    This is the way most think perception works. We have a independent defined world outside (movie) which is not dependent to the one perceiving it. On the film role there is each frame of the movie as a fixed and unchangeable content.

    Idea2:
    And we know 3d games. 3d games contain graphical data which are processed by the GPU to create a 3d world.
    The data itself however does not contain one frame of any scene.
    The PC system represents a human the screen the place where perception happens.

    So when one loads and starts the game the PC system creates a world, lets say we have an ego perspective game.
    So one sees now the part of the game world which is just created by the pc system.
    Remember: The scene or view you are watching now is NO content of the existing data. It has just been created by the PC system.
    So behind 'of you' there is no PC world that exists. When you turn around with the mouse THEN the PC system creates the world behind of you and that what had been in front before does not exist anymore.
    So when the PC world does have the program routine of a falling tree in it that makes a sound, it doesn't not exist to you, because the condition of perception does not happen (cause and effect and one who is perceiving it). Anyway the event is a part of the PC game.

    So you would have to move though the PC world until you come to the falling tree. At that moment and not before it can make a sound, because you are there now creating it.

    I myself know the mind (which is here the entire PC WITH the PC game data) creates the world when perceiving it. The seer is me.
    The mind consists of the PC AND the data (world). I know that because I know the world is within us. Why do I know that? Where else should something be but in the mind? Outside of it?!

    So how works perception? Movie like or 3d game like? :D
    The first way says yes there is a sound, the second no there is no particular sound of that particular tree.
     
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  13. OCP

    OCP MDL Novice

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    #133 OCP, Feb 20, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 20, 2017
    Yes it does

     
  14. Myrrh

    Myrrh MDL Expert

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    Wow, a lot of posts on such a basic topic. I did not read them all, but the answer is as simple and self-evident as Mr Schrödinger's cat.
     
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  15. Mutagen

    Mutagen MDL Addicted

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    Is there a "least significant thread" contest I missed?