If God is Omniscient then Human is not free.

Discussion in 'Serious Discussion' started by sid_16, Apr 9, 2013.

?

Free will doesn't exist If God is omniscient.

  1. If yes, why?

    34 vote(s)
    45.9%
  2. If no, then how?

    40 vote(s)
    54.1%
  1. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    You have my arguments here but you said you're not interested, ergo what would be the point?
     
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  2. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

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  3. parafer

    parafer MDL Member

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    The whole God-and-Universe semantic, I think, makes it hard to formulate an answer that isn't equally ambivalent as the question.

    If God is seen as the Ineffable or one Substance, then what we would consider the universe or the phenomenal/manifest would rather be an outflow of God, and indeed God Him/Her/Itself. As such, any concept such as free or bound pertains to the one substance only, and the phenomenal or manifest being of relative nature only (and therefore has an ephemeral quality). Free and bound in this sense are relative concepts or realities, too. And if the apparent God-and-man division is entertained, then what is referred to as "God" by "man" must be the innermost or nucleus of that man. Meaning, that certain life-forms or relative constructs could be where the root-consciousness or being referred to as "God" would manifest. Aka the mystical or transcendental or psychedelic experience. Since what has come down in transcendental traditions seems to indicate that the state of man wherein one is not aware of his nucleus, is, by definition, a bound (not a free) state, leads to the conclusion that what people mostly refer to as "free will" is actually a very whimsical and conditioned state of being. So perhaps the perspective should be that one can't know true freedom unless freed from conditioning; i.e., waking up out of the state of relativity or awareness of the one substance/state that informs all form/relativity.

    The phrasing was interesting: "If God is omniscient, there can be no free will of man." So, omniscience (knowing all) precludes free will of man is the posit. Perhaps omniscience is the state of freedom. And perhaps we/man should not conclude that he cannot attain this freedom and/or omniscience. If man cannot be omniscient, could he be free? Because not knowing what conditions you, how could you be free?

    Don't attack the philosophizing, because I didn't open this can of worms :D
     
  4. sid_16

    sid_16 MDL Giveaway Organiser

    Oct 15, 2011
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    "
    Free will doesn't exist If God is omniscient"
    The endless loop, God gave us freewill but God knows all so your will is already known eliminating the "free" part. :D
     
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  5. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

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    The there is the, God knows all so why does it want prayers? You're all powerful, all knowing etc... and you want prayers and subservience? Dictator, sociopath, psychopath etc would apply to that God!
     
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  6. case-sensitive

    case-sensitive MDL Expert

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    When people talk about GOD they're usualy talking about the semitic god jehova / allah ......... and the semitic ' religeon ' with its three main branches = christianity , judeism and islam .

    Their religeon is that their god doesnt like them , has rejected them and dissowned them .

    They sinned by stealing the apple = capitalism ........ so he threw them out of the garden of eden .

    Then they still didnt change so he sent the flood to wipe them out .

    That didnt work and then cain murdered able ........... and their god told them to go their way .

    = acording to their own ' religeon ' they're godless sinners ........ and their god has rejected them .


    From another direction ......... they say that god made humanity in his own image = Hes also a massmurdering , lieing , cheating , thief ? ......... or hes a trouble making troll ? ...... = Did he do it deliberately ? or did he make a mistake .?

    = IF free will does exist god is an arsehole ............ or ........... IF free will doesnt exist god is an arsehole ?

    = either he made us and made a BIG mistake because he made as copys of him and we're arseholes ............ or he deliberately made us arseholes because hes an arsehole .

    = Was it an acident or is he incompetent ?

    = Hes an incompetent arsehole .
     
  7. Mr.X

    Mr.X MDL Guru

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    Wrong. God does not want or need your subservience. Prayer is a mechanism to acquire HUMILITY and obfuscate arrogance, then a lot of good things come.
     
  8. case-sensitive

    case-sensitive MDL Expert

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    But what an ego wanker ........... god is such a looser .......... he has to create unfree slaves to worship him !?!?
     
  9. Mr.X

    Mr.X MDL Guru

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    No. You are an abortion of God's creation so no humility or anything can make you worthy of this existence :)
     
  10. andy.tay70

    andy.tay70 MDL Junior Member

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    I too believe in Cheesus crust
     
  11. case-sensitive

    case-sensitive MDL Expert

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    Prayers !!! = Thats like little kids making lists of things that they want for christmas ?
     
  12. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    Why would a God have a "need" (to create anything at all), if s/he is a perfect Being?

    Need = incompleteness, imperfection, some kind of lack, hence a "want"...

    It's hard with literalists...:rolleyes::D:p:D
     
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  13. Mr.X

    Mr.X MDL Guru

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    I need a pizza and beer
     
  14. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    Yes, OK - but God being "needy"?!?
     
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  15. case-sensitive

    case-sensitive MDL Expert

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    >Yes, OK - but God being "needy"?!?

    maybe he just likes piza and beer ?
     
  16. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    Pearls before.....
     
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  17. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

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    It`s funny how God in the Bible created everything but then throws the blame for suffering on the devil. You created the bloody devil and suffering! Didn't you debug your code properly? Then you have the apologists trying to explain the flawed concept!
    Humans !!! *shakes head and walks away
     
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  18. andy.tay70

    andy.tay70 MDL Junior Member

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    If God was real would he really sit back and let his children kill each other?
    Total gnat fart.
     
  19. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    #2259 Yen, Sep 24, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2021
    In this context maybe consider...From 'where' does come something that is new? Real creativity. Or is there nothing really 'new' at all?
    Or....how absolute becomes relative. Or a 'part' of something infinite /eternal becomes finite...with a start and end in progressive time.

    You 'find' the same paradox...there can be free will and the absolute =GOD=the totality from 'whom' everything emerges. The issue is maybe a human imagination totality=omniscience.
    Omniscience already relies on duality. 'Someone' (who knows) 'anything'

    For me there is no contradiction.
    There can be something really new AND the totality of GOD.
    It was, is and will be AND can be really new, because it hasn't appeared (yet) in any time.
     
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  20. case-sensitive

    case-sensitive MDL Expert

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    @ Thread

    If if if = If you dont know something you invent fantasy ' arguments ' ......... and then make stupid staements about how your fantasy ' answers ' substantiate your fantasy argument .

    The whole thread is proof of ignorance .

    >Free will doesn't exist If God is omniscient"

    For that statement to be true / relevant GOD must exist ........ and that god must be how you imagine him .

    World history is dominated by scum ( ' priests ' / poly-trickers ) telling the slaves that god gave them power and that the slaves have to do what they say and give them money .

    Dont waste time being frightened and running away from your ignorance ......... and just be ?

    Seriously ....... what does it matter ?

    GOD is a conspiracy theory for dumb people .