If God is Omniscient then Human is not free.

So what point would it make if you want to hear X and I want to hear Y and we all keep posting about X & Y ? I like coke and not pepsi that's my choice. I find it ridiculous that some people bashed Sid_16 because he posted the thread and had a predisposition to it. He may not have phrased some of his replies properly, but who are you or anyone else to question why he posted the thread? TS had a thread in this same section, don't know if it got deleted, where the reason is so damn obvious (blatant trolling) that I wonder why it was allowed! No one has to agree with spirituality or science and you should feel free to criticize either in a proper way. If you can't handle criticism in a discussion then why even have a discussion?

 

So what your saying is I should have the right to criticize your criticism but where does that get us ? and BTW nobody bashed Sid and by your logic they should be able to speak their mind anyways within the framework of the rules,right?


This is what was said by me nothing more nothing less no need to distort into something it's not .. Why is it you find it necessary to take a persons words out of context ? and then use those words as some sort of crutch to bolster a point your trying to make .. This totally baffles me because in our encounters here on this forum I have come to see you to be an intelligent and sometimes thoughtful person minus the snark .. The question is why do you insist I present Coke to you all the time ..
" Why the vitriol Sid ?

You said "Mr Redroad, these are I think valid question while we are discussing the God existence."
Which I think were in reference to your post here .. http://forums.mydigitallife.net/thr...l=1#post752429

If we are discussing something as broad as God's existence as you have said then how can you be seemingly frustrated when the conversation/debate takes on a life of it's own

I think it is time for you to ask yourself what your intention for posing such a thought provoking question to begin with .. I don't need the answer .. It is for your information only

After all we are neighbors here .. There is no right or wrong in this discussion however there is a tenant/tone of respect which we have agreed to, right? "

From this point Sid chose to take it to a whole new level and the only thing that was pointed out to him is that tone/demeanour has no place in a conversation if the intention is to have any sort of meaningful conversation .. Simple really we agreed to some rules to have a "Serious discussion" .. So you have made your presence know again when your finished I really would hope we could get back to a discussion that seemed to be evolving although loosely to a healthy exchange of ideas/thoughts within what I perceive as being relevant to the topic ..

 

@Yen Thank you for sharing that intimate glimpse into who you are ..

"Finally is all about tolerance and curiosity and not about west / east separation of cultures.
After my study I became blind due to pride of what I have gained. I am happy that this pride has got its relative place there where it is useful to be applied and there is enough room left for other treasures of the world. "

 

I was recently reading an interview by Discover magazine with Anton Zeilinger the Austrian physicist http://discovermagazine.com/2011/ju...ts-photons-taught-the-dalai-lama#.UZS70pzCcpo The same physicist in MJ's link

What I find very interesting was his answer to this question ..
You have said that children should be introduced to quantum phenomena at an early age. Why?

Zeilinger's answer : "Our brains develop according to the mental activities that we engage in intensely. If you present children with the basics of quantum mechanics, there is opportunity for the development of a different perception of reality. The question is whether we want to take the responsibility of putting somebody, an individual, on a different track than everybody else. Will that person be happy or unhappy in later life?"


When I associate his answer to the varied responses in this thread it is clear that we certainly have different realities because "Our brains develop according to the mental activities that we engage in intensely."

If I take his answer to a more personal/tribal relevance those perspectives begin to shine some light on how one perception or world view may be so different than others .. The following part of his answer is also telling of how native/tribal cultures have struggled so at times more specifically our native youth who have the highest suicide rate amongst ethnic teenage populations in the U.S.
"The question is whether we want to take the responsibility of putting somebody, an individual, on a different track than everybody else. Will that person be happy or unhappy in later life?"


The following questions/answers I found also quite interesting and sparks thoughts of "free will" and a welcomed/needed/refreshing view of flexibility .. The whole interview is worth a read in my IMHO

"The Buddhism practiced by the Dalai Lama embraces an unbroken chain of cause and effect. How did he respond when you explained the random nature of quantum events?
"

"This was something he didn’t like. He said, “You have to look closely, you have to find the cause.” And then he said something interesting: “If this is really true and you can convince us, then we have to change our teaching.” That is a flexibility which not every religion has."




"Doesn’t that bother you, too? Don’t you find the random nature of the quantum world a little disturbing?"

"Not at all. I find a reality where not everything is predefined much more comforting because it’s an open world. It’s much richer. To me, the most convincing indication of the existence of a world independent of us is the randomness of the individual quantum event. It is something that we cannot influence. We have no power over it. There is no way to fully understand it. It just is."

 

So, 'random' signifies 'open' (and 'free'). But again a freedom within the parameters of quantum law/order. Sounds a bit like our discussion As for quantum events in plants, I thought I had posted a while back (might not have been here) about scientists discovering that energy in plants (from light) is found to be calculating/simulating chlorophyll routes to find the most efficient paths from the surface of a protein to its core. Finding several paths available to it, it will then settle on the shortest path. One might read this article, it's interesting. Note where it says, "We can't pinpoint the energy of that light. It's shared in a very special way." I think a lot of very interesting information is going to come out of this research.

Another article reads, "It shows us that high-level biological systems could be tapped into very fundamental physics in a way that didn't seem likely or even possible." To me this would be an indicator towards the powers of the brain as well. I have always thought that the brain is the most advanced piece of equipment we have come across.

 

@Yen My reason for posting Zalinger's perspective as well as some of the other Science related perspectives is primarily to spark debate especially surrounding some of the more current perceptions/views in order to stimulate a more robust debate with my scientifically minded friends in this thread as it relates .. My personal views/experiences/perceptions certainly are that there is more to it or less My view is we need/needed some sort of common ground other than deeply entrenched stale ideas that have been in opposition for far to long in order to have a spirited debate where peoples points are not handled like this IMHO any movement in this thread that includes a more expansive view/perception is a welcome change

With regards to Zalinger's answer and your post I would like to say the following if I use the growing plant idea it's perception of it's environment (geographic location, surrouding relationships, weather patterns and deeper etc.) if I take that plant to an environment which is hostile to it's nature/reality it will have difficulty surviving .. That is my point and only that .. If I bring in the idea of spirit/medicine and it's potential my perceived sphere of influence becomes relevant based on the extent of my purity of intention in my relationship to the plant .. Our children are for me similar ..

On a side note I have not come to any conclusions regarding Zalinger's work but one thing I find fascinating is the insight that he gives into how his perspective may have been shaped by this ..

"How did you come to view the world in such an unusual way?

I grew up after World War II in Austria, so we were very poor. We lived in the Soviet zone, which meant housing was scarce. We were put up on the third floor of a castle in a small village. It had these huge rooms, and I liked to look out the window. So my parents got these bars on the window, and they tied me to them with a harness. I would sit there, hanging out of the window for hours just watching and observing cows and people below. The villagers still talk about the strange child hanging from the castle window watching everything."

 

Thanks for the link and post

"In fact, such insights might help inform how to efficiently transfer energy over long atomic distances quickly in human-made systems to harvest sunlight—benefiting from nature's 2.7-billion-year head start in optimizing such systems. "Can it help you make a huge jump through space? It does precisely that," Scholes says. "It would be really nice to learn some tricks or what you need to think about if you want to design something that would move energy a long distance quickly."

 

Wanting to here either X or Y is the problem as it is a reflection of being "predisposed"

It is not the first time in history that someone posted something to engage to attack hence they didn't post something out of curiosity nor has Sid posted one time in curiosity but completely predisposed!

I am not trolling in any way as I post from my feelings to the topic in question whereas you and others just want to pop in and bash what you can't even relate too! You total troll for many years here R29k. You seem to be peaceful or relaxed but are not easy going or give a care about spiritual experience! You not one time tried to relate or validate your friends here spiritual wisdom or experience! They tolerate you in never contributing here at MDL definitely!

The extreme atheists Sid didn't want a discussion which would include "new" non-regurgitated information to enter the discussion

But it's so f'n obvious here in this now sticked thread who is open to new ideas and who is not open to ideas. dismissing what you can't understand or relate to it the most highest example of ignorance and arrogance as any true scientist or student of cosmology would allow their mind to be open unless they themselves believe the real spiritual people here can create some type of spell to control scientists, hence they actually believe and fear energy and the connection to mind.

So a witch hunt in this post cause the cosmos to you and the other thread bullies own, not share the discoveries or cosmic information, hence in your every word just want to dominate in your territorial craziness state of mind and you care not at all that this world via a true unified field could end all suffering and bring an entire world both poor and rich, analytically and intuitively inclined together once and for all

Where have you or the other hidden agenda posters have suggested a humanitarian point of view in perusing science or other Nobel pursuits?

Never one time ever, nor will you cause your cowardly!

Just treating the possible comprehensive whole system analysis of the cosmos like something to just further control and dominate the already dominated world by partial science and absolute ignorant intellectual so-called "discussions"

You don't care about the discussion of God nor any humans free will nor what happens to people on earth

Your deeply entrenched in your absolute ego and are unable to learn any thing new that your science false gods sell you in the many ways your sold what is actually inside you

If you did with your f'n total non-comprehensive lack of complete scope you and other sheep here would be open to new information as how to discover what is complete and constant regarding the universe

@MDL

What is constant is actually a threat to these supremely uninformed science groupies and when a complete non-linear science is finally absorbed by them it will completely debunk all beliefs of partial science, govt's and bogus without God religions

 

@ Sid I ask you to indulge me in this fantasy

You are a radio "disk jockey" DJ what you choose to broadcast is going to determine who listens and who changes the channel .. I'm tuned in and listening Sid let's hear what you got

 

Oh, no, your record is still stuck on that spot... Sheeeeettttt... you'll never grow out of this hole you dug for yourself...

 

@gorski here's some light reading for you .. http://seedmagazine.com/content/article/the_reality_tests/P1/

"I asked Dr. Zeilinger about this as I was about to leave his office. “In the history of physics, we have learned that there are distinctions that we really should not make, such as between space and time… It could very well be that the distinction we make between information and reality is wrong. This is not saying that everything is just information. But it is saying that we need a new concept that encompasses or includes both.” Zeilinger smiled as he finished: “I throw this out as a challenge to our philosophy friends.”

 

@Yen I'm not sure if you are speaking to me directly or Gorski when you are saying

"I don't kick-start a tension here science versus Philosophy which you've tried to create at other threads / posts already."

I can assure you that my primary motivation for posting in general is to find common ground where a dialogue can be fostered where seeming impasse can be overcome if I've communicated anything other than that I apologize .. as far as Zalinger goes as I said

Given my personal cultural history I have had to often times build bridges of communication where none seemingly existed .. I was put in this role at an early age so my curiouity in the historical backgrounds/paths of others and how they have come to their perceptions/views of the world we share has elevated significance ..

 

If this was part of your mindset when you started this thread I am beginning to understand why things may have evolved the way they did ..

"One can never going to make an argument that will cause someone to instantly change his/her position, unless one is a scientist arguing with other scientists about science and even then it is rare. See Casimir effect"

You said "It's been proven that according to QM you can't use the correlations seen in entanglement to actually communicate any information (there's no way that by measuring one member of a pair I can deduce how the other member was measured), so using it to justify psi doesn't make any sense."

My point/view only is if it has relationship then communication is dicoverable even if we currently are unaware of it ..