If God is Omniscient then Human is not free.

Discussion in 'Serious Discussion' started by sid_16, Apr 9, 2013.

?

Free will doesn't exist If God is omniscient.

  1. If yes, why?

    37 vote(s)
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  2. If no, then how?

    45 vote(s)
    54.9%
  1. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

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    @Sid Subjective interpretation doesn't make the actual object different, or does it :eek:
     
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  2. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    It is the mind speaking that way. It is its self-preservative drive.
    The German meaning of mind unveils its one and only job.
    Mind = Verstand (noun) and its verb is verstehen and that means literally to understand. Means mind = the 'thing' that wants to understand.....but can it 'understand' that you are now?

    What is always the result (interpretation)? An own relative reality. I am speaking of ‘the’ reality. The reality is the most simple ‘thing’ that ‘exists’ (actually the only ‘thing’).

    Science and Philosophy suffer from the fact that an interpretation of reality is an interpretation and not the reality ‘itself’. The interpretation changes in the time, the reality stays as it is and is ever now ‘complete’. (Otherwise it wouldn’t be 'the' reality or 'the' truth).

    To me the problem of humankind relies (IMHO) on the overestimated importance of mind. (To be found at western high tech societies...coincidence??)
    The mind is great no doubt. The mind created fantastic architectures, buildings, sciences, but it also created the A-bomb and weapons.
    The focus should move to the being, to the existence itself. No joke, most people do not feel that they exist whilst creating highly complex theories / high tech products of the world.
    How can there be a healthy result / interpretation? A result which includes the fact that we are (human) beings? It must be self-alienated!




    @sid_16

    It is clearly a definition that comes from mind: 12:00 is the next day already. Any time before is the day before, means 11:59 (9 repetend) belongs still to the day before.
    But between 11:59 (9 repetend) and 12:00 is no time!

    You see a pure mind game, which is besides contradictory. And the time is a creation of mind.

    All my post are made to address one’s curiosity. But if one wants to know what I really mean one has to have the will to experiment practically with it.

    Reading my posts is funny and I guess many readers think I am a bit crazy, but that is not the reason why I post.
    I post because the real ‘surprise’ is the now.
    To go beyond mind and to awake a far higher intelligence is ‘the surprise’.
    Most people are identified with the mind. They behave like ‘I’ = ‘mind’.
    This identification happens unaware. The mind attracts the consciousness and engrosses it completely.
    When observing the mind, one creates a gap. The observer observes the mind and becomes dis-identified as long as one is doing it. Means consciousness deducts from mind and is ‘free’ to experience the present.

    This is where ‘the surprise’ starts….
    It is no mystic, nothing sick or something. It is quite the contrary. One cannot ‘get’ (literally) what I mean. But everyone can experience it.

    The misunderstanding of ‘spiritual’ people and ‘science’ people has no real cause. It is the mind defending its position of power.
    I am a living example that it is that way…in my mind there is no inconsistency (anymore).:biggrin::)

    Scientists who are / were genius said (Einstein for instance) they had the most important breakthroughs at a time where the mind activity had been rather low.
    And Einstein said from a scientific POV (view of mind) the reality is an illusion.
    When one really deals with Einstein and his theories, then one has to admit that they are pretty spiritual. But most do not get what he said.

    Observe your mind and observe how it cannot stop thinking of past / future events = creates the time.....:):biggrin: Time is important in the world of mind. But time does not exist since anything happens ever now. This is what all posts here are about.

    Do not believe what I say, don't agree with what I say....try it.....nothing 'right' or 'wrong' will unveil when you observe your mind. The observer is beyond mind in this situation.

    Meister Eckhart said: The barrier of time is the barrier to god. (My interpretation: God is just a synonym of the presence, it is the (thought) time that gets you away from the present...)
     
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  3. sid_16

    sid_16 MDL Giveaway Organiser

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    I think you're right , the earth was not flat before the creation of human perception or turned into round shape after they perceived It.:D

    But here are some thought provoking articles, see the relativist fallacy and
    [h=1]Relativism[/h]
     
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  4. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    The mind is a crook. It suspects that the image of the earth we have today is truer than we had before. But concerning reality it is just another idea of it. In the future people will have another idea and will probably laugh about again. But when they are doing it, it can be only at present. Crazy isn't it?
    So from where actually comes the 'new' knowledge?
    I guess this is meant with the omniscience of god = present.
     
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  5. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    Yen, in our higher capacities it is Vernunft that is at work, never mind (so to speak :D ) Verstand...

    Leave it out, will you, you are simply not equipped for this... :D

    You're gonna do yerself an injury... :D

    (Sorry but...:hug2: )
     
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  6. Paiva

    Paiva MDL Developer

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    What sustains the universe? All the stars?

    What holds the planets in orbit?

    It is God! :D
     
  7. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    ...or that particle they are after of late...:biggrin: whichever comes first...:D
     
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  8. Paiva

    Paiva MDL Developer

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    I think that mere mortals only speculate things :rolleyes:
     
  9. sid_16

    sid_16 MDL Giveaway Organiser

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    As far as my understanding of these terms goes 'Verstand' is something to do with intellect and 'Vernunft' is the ability to gasp reality without concepts. Correct me here :D

    In my little experience this is because we/some of us often carry with us certain metaphysical beliefs which we do not tend to question, and from which we tend to argue. What we do not take into account is how this internal system of beliefs about the world is inherited/constructed.:biggrin:
     
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  10. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

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    Well if gravity is your God then it can work yes. :eek:
     
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  11. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

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    Or how the mores of our society or culture has changed our perception of everything.
     
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  12. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    http://www.blackwellreference.com/public/tocnode?id=g9780631175339_chunk_g978063117533922_ss1-3

    Reason/Vernunft in Hegel and many other greatest thinkers and artists stands for a higher, all embracing, critical faculty of ours (capable of seeing beyond the limits of the merely present), as opposed to a lower instance of Understanding/Verstand, interested merely in the present (how to get to cheese, in a given set of circumstances, so to speak).

    The crucial bit, where it all starts, so to speak, especially to "scientists" and their "positivist" ilk here is this:

    See more here:

    http://personal.kenyon.edu/mccarthy/Syllabi/Socy361.htm

    Especially this part, I think:

    OK? :D
     
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  13. sid_16

    sid_16 MDL Giveaway Organiser

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    I don't think, am qualified enough to question the above article. Thanks Dr Gorski.:worthy:
     
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  14. sid_16

    sid_16 MDL Giveaway Organiser

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    Also shaped our magical thinking....:p
    Perhaps few months back I saw in a tv channel, there was a program which went into this. The premise in that program was- a professor talking to his class about magical thinking, and he suggested that if some machine could make a perfect replica of his wedding ring there would be no reason to prefer the original over the replica, and so we are imbuing the 'real' ring with magical properties. He then extends the argument to people, and then gets into such a machine which is supposed to 'transport' him, except that the original him does not disappear.
     
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  15. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    Not equipped with Vernunft? :biggrin:;)

    Erm, I have never mentioned Vernunft. Sure is Vernunft at work as a higher capacity.
    I am not familiar with terms of western Philosophy. I rather use their common sense as 99.99999% of all other people who have not studied western Philosophy. Besides of that to know what 'reasonable' means, to have clear defined meanings of it and to be it are different things.

    I defined my idea of mind to gain understanding, not to correct Philosophy. :)
    The matter is far far more globally I am trying to address. Nothing for the mind and actually nothing for a own (your) idea of Vernunft, sorry. I am unvernünftig (unreasonable) here.:D
    Anyway some questions::)

    When I want to know how something works, to understand how it works, does that concern the mind Verstand? I mean the pure intention to want to have an explanation for something?
    When you go to bed and you cannot sleep because thousands of thoughts and ideas are in your mind can we speak here of Vernunft? With 'you' I don't mean you personally, I mean the public. I mean when somebody is not able to let the mind rest when it is wished, how can there be Vernunft?

    And is there absolute Vernunft? Somebody who behaves absolutely reasonable?
    To me any action that doesn't come from the awareness of (own) being is actually unreasonable.
    Have a look at the world. Any Unvernunft comes from self alienation. From objects which just accomplish a function from objects which are called human beings.
    Am I that far off with what I say, or simply not familiar with your terms? :hug2:

    If any Unvernunft (unreasonable behavior) comes from self-alienation then the 'self' must be absolute reasonable.
    Only god = self can be 'reasonable'. This is absolute Vernunft. Yes a scientist is saying that.
     
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  16. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    Common sense won't get you very far in Philosophy, that's for sure...:biggrin: No offence but...:D
     
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  17. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    #757 Yen, Nov 2, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2013
    OK. Not very far in western Philosophy. Almost all the people are affected, no problem. :)
    My posts are not made for to come very far in it.
     
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  18. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    Not very far in any Philosophy, as far as I know... seriously speaking...:cool:

    And as far as "consensus gentium" quasi-argument is concerned... oh, well... as I said above... you need a proper training in this, before you (or anyone) can...

    Ahem... Night-night... :)
     
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  19. fakeraol

    fakeraol MDL Novice

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    #759 fakeraol, Nov 3, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2013
    God is ...

    • 1. dead

    or

    • 2. an sadistic crackpod, lying in his own excrements, laughting of all of us.

    ... no ... (2) is impossible, so (1) he must be dead.

    And a free will is impossible too, in a world, full of greed, weapons, banks, drugs, secret services, opportunists, and stupid patriotism. you're driven by constraints, you're fighting every day, you're not free.
     
  20. Paiva

    Paiva MDL Developer

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    Can not prove this guy.

    Atheist only exists because God exists. :popcorn: