This is a really interesting thread and I'm pretty surprised about the quality of all posts. Great to be here with you all. I read a lot about free will and freedom of choice and so. And I wonder if it is a sign of the existence of god. My experience is that if I have a choice, it doesn't matter what my choice will be. If my choice would matter, I wouldn't have a free choice. Examples: I will let do my little kids what they want as long as they behave within that what I will grant them. They will experience it as free choice (what it is not really). On my job: if my Boss gives me free choice in any situation, it means probably, it doesn't matter how I decide. Because I'm acting within the circle my boss grants. If my decisions can cause problems, he would not let me decide. Politicians do so as well - we can elect because it doesn't matter, but we can not elect for example strange parties because there are no strange parties allowed to be elected. US citizens can choose between democrats or republicans (as far as I can see this from europe, the choice in european countries is not much wider). This is the granted circle, you have a free choice only within this circle because it doesn't matter. But there is no free voting outside the granted circle. There are thousands of examples like this. That means at the end: if god grants me free choice, than I know it doesn't matter if I believe in god (and in which one) or not. If this doesn't matter than either there is a god that doesn't care about me and he/she doesn't accept and recognize me as a mature human being. I'm treaten as a little child. Or there is no god at all. If there is no god, what are we existing for? Is there a "bad" god who holds us like we have little fish in glas bowls?
@fakeraol, Yes yes, logical operations are interesting things. Humans are rational, and that's good. I understand you The episode of the loaves (Mt 14, 13-21) has lately been touted not as a miraculous feat of Jesus, but as simple sharing of existing dairy cattle in the crowd. I studied and I think: Such an interpretation is unfounded in the text and violent, as the Evangelist noted that there was nothing to eat in the crowd. I think there may be misinterpretation. I think that society does "God created." Let's think about a different point: "How did the world?" Big Bang right? Or no? I do not understand this sentence Regards,
@ MataHari, Very good . I think God cares about what we choose. Like you care about the choices of their children. But the child only learns to be mature when you suffer the consequences of their choices. If God intervening in my choices I did not learn anything. But that does not mean it does not exist.
If God is omniscient then God already knows what you will choose, God won't sit there waiting to see what you are going to choose, a God that sits and waits to see what you choose is not really a God.
Sure, thats one option. Maybe, it was like i said, and during this hundreds of generations, parents passing the story of jesus by word, monks by copying the sacred writings (and sometimes adding a lyrical phrase), somebody "completed" the story, like it was told him, with this sentence ".. there was nothing to eat in the crowd." Maybe, maybe not. One option out of endless possibles is: "there was nothing to eat in the crowd.". Even if this sentence is from the oldest bible, ever found, there may have exist hundreds of other versions of this story, witch where lost later, and nobody can turn back the time and verify. Tell me, witch was the first drop of water in a puddle, after the rain is gone? We will never know the exact real story of jesus. What remains, is the idea behind this book: every single human being on this planet is part of this society, that we all need, and even the animals and plants are part of our live. This sentence i do not understand. The society was created by god, or the society created god (by passing the story)? I think, the world did not "start" by "Big Bang", and so it will not end, the "world" (witch is more then this planet), performs a metamorphose and this "Big Bang" is part of this process. You know M. L. King? He hopes, that ".. one day right there in Alabama little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers." The decalogue tells us, where "god lives". Not in a church. Thats not the place, to find god. Not in prayers, not in the offertory, not in the choir. If one follows lives the commandments of the decalogue, then (in the words of believers) there is a sound: ... boom .. boom .. boom .. boom .. ................. the heartbeat of god. >>> "You're my sisters and brothers!" <<< now you understand?
"I think, the world did not "start" by "Big Bang", and so it will not end, the "world" (witch is more then this planet), performs a metamorphose and this "Big Bang" is part of this process." Yes. The big bang is a scientifically calculated result, backwards and has its relation to linear progressive time. The question: "What had been before?" comes in mind at once. This is a logical process of cause and effect, to ask what had been the cause of the big bang. Time requires cause and effect. The only way out of this endless chain is to 'accept' that there must be 'something' that has no 'birth' and hence no death. To theists it is god. To spiritualists it is the 'now'. From this 'now' which has no time, the manifest and the not yet manifest appear so to say as the first duality, creating the space / time continuum. Both in their absolute aspects are space = infinity and time = eternity. In their absolute aspects they are the nature of god. Or absolute spirit. I really do not understand why some have issues with theists/atheists or scientists/spiritualists. The reality is as it is, individual reason is separating it. Dispeace is a result of human reason and only human reason can restore the peace again. This is a inner process. When one 'understands' that the big bang is now, and one knows that the now has no time = eternity and space appears as its absolute aspect = infinity, then one discovers 'the kingdom of heaven'. But this is not all. When one 'understands' that the absolute is ONE then one 'understands' that your 'self' is not different from this ONE = absolute. This means salvation "The kingdom of heaven is WITHIN you". But when trying to understand that intellectually god becomes an idea. Eternity becomes time, infinity becomes finite (separated objects, with a relative location). Here to 'understand' means to be, not to know. This means my post is nothing one should 'know'. It would be of no use to 'know' it. It is nothing to agree or disagree with it, nothing to convince. Why? One can only convince an other of what the one should be, but not of what one really IS. Lets say one has got intellectually what I wrote. Then one has concluded (reason) that what you really are is eternal and infinite. But is your fear of death really gone (are you eternal)? Is your identification with your objects really gone = I am my body (are you infinite)? Each individual has its own way to restore inner peace. And that has to be a transcendental process, self-realization. Words can only initiate the process, nothing more.
@fakeraol, All true. this is where we use the FAITH. I guess I wanted to say that God creates no one. Either exists or does not exist. Now I understand what you said. hahaha I find that beautiful. When we act generously brain connects things to a good God. If God exists He delights of love of neighbor. And unfortunately many fail to find more God in temples. The people inside the temples most preaching is just money. Regards,
@Yen, I really liked your closing. Every human being has a concept of ethics. Especially in different cultures. And every human being seeks inner peace. This is absolute truth. I'm a theist and I can not see Big Bang without the hand of God. Do not believe the world ends at our death Regards,
Only if you completely ignore all ideas of the speed of light as a maximum. When relativistic effects are in effect, there is no concept of before and after since it depends on where your sensor is located and whether it is moving. That's why there is nothing that can be everywhere at once and perceive "everything". That's if you so desparately want out of this chain that you make up the missing bits. Why can't you just say "I don't know" and move on with exploration? Why the need to fill a void with completely unfounded ideas?
Do not get me wrong. I'm talking about your life will end when you die. We can not live without the sun everybody knows
Why are you sure that life extends past your biological existence? If it extends past that, it surely extends to the past as well? Why don't you tell us something about the former lives you had? I can't even remember anything I experienced as a baby.
@Paiva: come on - this is what you can tell to children! Reality shows the opposit: We have to suffer wars & crime. Ask a raped woman what she thinks about God cares. Were all the wars man fought not enough suffering of consequences? What consequences of war did man not suffer yet? Do we miss any crime we didn't had before and which consequences are not yet suffered widely enough? No - I can not agree with that comparison. For me there is either no god or a god, that doesn't care. Maybe we are just part of a game. A god that creates many worlds with intelligent life forms and wants to see which one is the best, which one runs longest or most prosperous.
With that line of reasoning, if you don't believe in the past life, how can you be sure that you believe there is something for later....? is not your present life the gift of your past? I mean your 'now' is the future of your past.