I think we only have grounds for claiming that there's no extant evidence of "supernatural events or entities." Can you make a square circle or a 5 sided triangle? d1. All changes to or in nature are observable. d2. All changes to or in nature can be accounted for by 'causal agents' or as 'random events.' d3. There is an 'X (God/s) that causes changes to or in nature.' (ref: theism) p1. X-changes are not 'random events.' p2. X-changes to or in nature must be observable. (d1, d3) p3. X-changes to or in nature must be accounted for only by X. (d2, p1) A1. There are no observed changes in or to nature that can be accounted for only by X. (ref: "known publicly") A2. There are no changes in or to nature caused by X. (p2, p3, A1) Conclusion. There is no 'X that causes changes to or in nature.' (d3, A2) QED cor1. There is 'Y that causes no changes to or in nature.' (ref: deism) cor2. There is 'Z that is the changes to or in nature.' (ref: pantheism) cor3. Y (Z) is indistinguishable from ~Y (~Z). (ref: agnosticism) prove me wrong if you can.
Hmmm (re. 'an absolute')... Had you merely stated 'absolute' we would have agreed on it. As you put it - it is relative...
Consider it as bad English on my part. To post without to let it appear relative is hardly realizable....a special focus is needed either way..... Apprentice: "Master, can you show me the reality?" Master:.....keeps silent, spreads his arms and smiles..... Apprentice: "Where is it, tell me!" ....consciousness without to relate....lol...
I was browsing the forum on more serious topics and I found this ETERNAL question, So I thought I'd contribute my 2 Cents. but my apologies 1st for any grammatical errors (English is NOT my first language) like I said while browsing and listening to music at the same time a funny coincidence happened (Or maybe not ,cause its been endlessly said that there are not coincidences in the universe while other believe the universe is just endless random events) well back to the point, although it was way before my time I like listening to 60 and 70's music and I was listening to John Lennon's "Mind Games" and it seemed to fit like a glove in here Yes that's right,. "We're playin' those mind games together Pushin' the barriers, plantin' seeds Doin' the mind guerrilla Some call it magic, the search for the grail So keep on playin' those mind games together Faith in the future, outta the now" I could quote the whole song, I'd probably fit, but that's not the point Off course all credits go to John Lennon and his lyrics,.. I'm just the messenger but isn't that right haven't we all been playing this mind games forever?? when We should already know that,...... Love is the answer And you know that for sure "Love is a flower You gotta let it, you gotta let it grow ,...Yes is the answer ,...,..And you know that for sure" YES!,.. is surrender,.but,.. WE GOTTA LET IT GO
I missed this thread, I've only seen now. I assume most of you are agnostics or atheists other religions or other, i have not read the full conversation, but I am Christian and Italian , so if you want to ask anything about my point of view on this thread you are welcome . I haven't a restricted mind neither i try to convert people XD . So i think , that God is omnipotent so He is also omniscient but this thing does not have any direct influence on our way to live our lives. He is not a puppeteer , He is not playing the Sims with us. I think He want to wait that we choose the right direction. We have too much concern for stupid little things of our life and we don't see all the evil around us. This evil, the men's evil, the absolute research of the money, the governments of the world trying to make slave workers, wars for religion, the killings . These are the kind of things that makes us slaves and takes from us free will. I think that men are the real problem and the money . For the money men enslave others and reduce himself to nothing. Then , I don't think that is right to think God as a observable event in nature or like a scientific process. He is outside our physic plan , is outside everything we have learned from nature, and nature is a God creation, so is not the point . Another thing that makes me laugh is the fight for the real name of God, He doesn't gave His name not even to Moses on the mountain so this fight for an idea of God in all religion is wrong. God is God and He has multiple names for the enjoyment of everyone XD.
If God is omniscient, God doesn't have to wait to know the future, the past and the present of every lifes. God always knew everything before the big bang actually exists. If God interacts with us, it's because we aren't perfect for God (according to its plans) and God want to modify a part of the universe (a part = us). But IF God want to change part of universe, it's because universe isn't originally its creation (because if it was, the universe would be always perfect) OR it's because God couldn't predict the future of the universe and, in this last case, is NOT omniscient. In the papers, God can be disappointed and sometimes has to test his subjects. My conclusion, the Bible does not describe God as an omniscient being. For me, the beginning of the Bible describes in fact the awakening of the consciousness for the human race (for example with the choice or not to taste the mysterious fruit, which is an allegory of knowledge). It's also the beginning of a social organization between humans, the construction of the family concept, developed after in the Bible, Coran and other religious papers. When we are conscious, we can choose to experiment and know more about a mysterious thing, but results can be dangerous for me, for us or for others. Consciousness is a very unique and powerful thing, but can be good or bad and not only for me, but maybe for someone else. That's the consciousness of a society. There is a great links between society concept and God concept...
God's creation has its own perfection, what we believe to be perfect or imperfect with our minds and through our senses, our miserable three dimensions could be wrong. Whenever someone says God knows all and sees all, I think, and if God does not know everything? or better if God has deliberately forced himself to see the future of men only over the choices of men, then it would explain many things. After all God is omnipotent then can also do it, and could have done it for love toward us, because that would make us worthy of trust being one of his greatest creations, and through our choice we could decide whether to elevate ourselves beyond our human nature or stay miserable forever.
I think you didn't get what I would like to say, and you're not the first. Of course, our brain is nothing and we barely understand systems with 4 dimensions, no more, so understand everything in the universe is impossible for us and impossible for ANY subpart of the universe. A computer can only simulate another less powerful computer, it cannot simulate an equal or better computer. Analogically, we cannot simulate universe in our brain because we are a part of the universe. So if God is omniscient about universe, God is not a part of the universe. Universe could be God, but that doesn't help us... That means that if God is omniscient and is the origin of the universe, it would be perfect from A to Z, and even more. If God exists and the universe need to be sometimes adjusted, it's because God isn't omniscient, couldn't create a perfect universe since the beginning and is submitted to the laws of time... So if the universe is perfect for God, why does God need to interact with us ? Aren't we already perfects ? Believing that God has to interact with us is believing that God isn't omniscient. Omniscient = we can understand the past, the present and the future at the same time. Even before something exists, we know when and how it exists and everything about this thing. Time doesn't mean anything and is not a constraint. We are not submitted to the "cause -> consequence" structure. Not omniscient = we cannot predict effects of some causes and we have to observe to adjust our acts.
God does not have to, he wants to interact with us, He craves, and all this because we are like Him. He has given us a spiritual part, the soul, which is directly a piece of its essence. This is the meaning of: We make them in our image and likeness! We are pure spirit incarnate, nobody knows why we have to go through this physical plane, is a mystery. Now, if you knew that you have your family, spread throughout the world, would not want it near? God has a huge family, probably not only on our planet earth, not only in our universe, but in every possible universe of every possible dimension. Why He creates, no one knows, my religion says to an act of love. I would conclude the speech on His omniscience. God is omnipotent, then He can do everything! If He were not omniscient, would mean that there is something He can not do, then He would not be omnipotent anymore. Everything that concerns the creation of the universe may be wrong because God would not be able to create, and this is one of those things which I can not just give up.
I agree with you, but it is because of any given name/image for god is not god.....(hence he has forbidden that at all) God told his name to Moses at Exodus 3:13-15 People's mind / intellect want to objectify god and to have a name for 'him'. God avoids the issue by pointing on being. The nature of god is the nature of being. You 'see' god when focusing on being. It appears as the present (timeless) joy/pleasure of being....(he said forever) If people would get this little bit of the bible, nobody would ever fight in the name of god (religions).... Or even simpler expressed: One cannot fight about something that is 'already' present!
You, Sir, have no idea what you are saying, i.e. that you are a blasphemer!!! What kind of God is it if s/he has "wants/needs"?!? What kind of "God" is "needy"?!? Need means "limited", "not whole", "wanting"... Indeed, where did the "need" to "create" anything at all come from, if the "being" is "perfect", "whole", "complete"?!? Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear... I feel an excommunication is due, for denigrating and diminishing the idea of "God"......
What part of the word "almighty" you do not understand? You have idealized God like a your intellectual creation, with rules if...means... ecc . God has no rules that us can understand . For what can i imagine God is perfect, complete and creator and despite this He still want and need. Don't be logical about God because is pointless! We simply cannot understand His mind or His nature. Jesus' words are always interpreted, even his apostles did not understand fully what he was saying. This very verse is a warning to Christians or any other person that he wanted to follow Jesus. The birth of Jesus, and even more by his death and resurrection have brought one huge upheaval in the order of things. He knew that Christians would be persecuted because of him, and perhaps he did not know that they also killed and destroyed other peoples for religion. Nevertheless Jesus was to announce the kingdom of God so that mankind could have the hope of salvation, but not from the Romans but from itself.
...and here cometh you to make us all enlightened... Now, that was a good laugh, go on, admit it... A veritable second coming...
I don't think he even understood what he way saying, that is if he even existed. There is NO evidence that Jesus existed at all ! And before you get your underwear in a knot, read here And if you want more fuel for the fire, read here People need to get their facts straight before they have hissy fits in defense of the indefensible.
ok ok ok relax! I knew that I would have sparked reactions naming Jesus, but I am a Christian and I believe in this. Not asking anyone to believe in my words, but I would prefer that you did not use a sarcastic tone, please. In any case you have made much more evident what is it says in Matthew 10:34. We are already off topic, then back on topic. I explained my reasons, perhaps not very well, I hope I have translated properly .
Is Babble = Bible sarcasm? Dunno - but can't help it... Just feels right, innit? Now, that is my "belief" - can you cope with that?