I don't exactly get what you mean. We probably should talk about 'the subject' and how it is commonly seen. It's about 'becoming'. God becomes an idol, your-self an idea of yourself, a person. An objectified subject (person) then believes in or denies another objectified subject = concept of god. This is insane, lol. The real subject remains indeterminable, though. Who are you? Who is god? What is X? Anything 'suffers' from the same issue. We know things (objects) ABOUT them but not 'the subject'. It becomes an object of descriptions. 'I' an container of identifications. The sentence "I am yen" lets the subject (already) become. To me 'god' is the real subject. And all scriptures are made to point on this. It is the one and only from which anything becomes. From a retrospective it has transcended any dualism. Since there is no dualism, there is only one subject. From the aspect of the illusionary character of time anything becomes now, "The language of god is stillness" seems to be valid as long as 'language" does not develop in a way to avoid objectification of the real subject. When it comes to 'god', an container of superlatives of objects, people kill, because human ego wants to 'own' him= THE truth. Feel free to 'attack' me. Perhaps I am completely wrong about your post.. Either I am unable concerning 'language' or it is a human linguistic problem... I mean 'the subject' is "ethereal" it escapes by any objectification The ideology of a fixed absolute reality that is separate from the observer perceived by human senses is as old as Newton and nobody needs to take drugs to question it. Consult Einstein
This is what I mean: One MUST have a "special idea of God", ultimately. No way out, we are limited and some are more limited than others, depending on their education, basic capabilities, interests and so on... Subject can not be removed from this relationship! Indeed, even every epoch has to re-write "their own" history, i.e. their vision of what has happened, according to themselves. No way out. This is the "linguistic problem", as it means nothing - sorry but... As per your additional explanation (EDITED A BIT LATER, WHEN I COULD...): In the best philosophical development we have to date, Classical German Philosophy - speculative means starting from a "unity" and then developing the multiplicity of life from it, in various ways, then bringing it all back together (Hegel is paradigmatic here), where all the "tensions" have been resolved and are at peace now. He thinks he unified the whole human experience. God = Absolute Spirit = (his) Philosophy, of course. Not a "person" with a beard who created "us" in his image and sits somewhere on a cloud, disinterested in his creation, just observing (how boring, knowing it all before it actually happens) etc. blah-blah... This is for idiots! Absolute spirit is Human spirit which produces his/her world for him/herself, as it is demonstrated in his "System", throughout (through the medium of) Human History, i.e. very substantively grounded and appropriated, as Humans must do, in order to really understand their creation. Hence, Lenin, for instance, insists on a "Materialistic Hegelian Society", as a must to any serious philosophical and Humanist education, as in "working from 'interests', not 'Spirit', i.e. in an 'abstract' manner"... Here is a little difference between, for instance, unintelligent mutterings about "our creator who loves us" and Hegel... All of this, then, is completely and totally false, when you have in mind the above stance of a Philosopher. There is no "stillness" but constant development or "becoming", as we have discussed many Moons ago... It's just that Hegel was leaned on heavily by the Prussian state and he "closed" his System in the end, even though before that old conservative, mystically bound Schelling was called upon to "destroy the seed of French Revolution in Hegelian thinking". And here is the thing: novel, Modern thinking (in German heads) of novel, Modern happening (in French and American hands) gets a hearing that no one can stop any longer. It can be derailed but the cat is out of the bag, especially with Marx... Sure, many people in the mere, rotten present are still existing as if the time is actually pre-modern (Feudal or worse) but... This is the point here: whether Hegelian Absolute Spirit (Human development) is finished, once and for all (Fukuyama & a merry band of conservative capitalist ideologue idiots) and nothing essentially novel can ever happen again ("History used to be but is no more", as Marx pointed to this possibility of "once revolutionary and now suddenly conservative bourgeois class", looooooong, long before Fukuyamas of this world started their BS story ) or Marxian idea that the French Revolution posited the ideas/values of 'liberté, égalité, fraternité' - but they have never been properly put in practice, especially brotherhood, never mind sisterhood - and therein lies the further development of Mankind, as the main issues, those of mutual recognition, which is still very much on the agenda, since Capitalism rests squarely on the ideas of domination and exploitation, as well as fair chances for all have never been implemented! These are the real "ideas" around "God" that affect our "reality"! Human history is "open" or "shut"?!? Omniscience and such stuff is for a laugh only...
There are no limits...unless one wants them. But imposing those limits are necessary for those who dwell philosophically in the "God subject" otherwise...madness is the next step.
Heh can you cut the platitudes cr@p for a little while, please? Do you think you can control yourself for a little while and stop trolling a little? Because this nonsense is debasing the issues to the bone... (The only thing that is mad here is this attitude of yours! )
Thanks gorski for your summary. It is interesting as science is. I have got no objections...and as posted out of curiosity I'll read that stuff again. The only difference is...all (remains) intellectual playground (as I had mentioned Moons ago). I say it simple....thoughts/intellect/reason (sorry have no better terms) are limited by 'their' laws. To evaluate/validate 'them' one needs a DIFFERENT perspective. No of them brilliant minds were able to have got this....at the same time it is that simple (too simple for a thought related ego)..a brilliant mind tends to laugh about it, but that is no scientific response at all, lol. 'Stillness' simply means to observe the thinker, does not mean stagnation. One just needs to get 'into' it. Mind-set is like a short circuit..to be aware of awareness. 'One' is witness there where things become, one can 'read' the process of becoming. I can just repeat one needs to 'try' it oneself to find out what's 'behind'. It is a direct approach of 'gnothi seauton' and it is not available to 'intellectuals' only...thank 'god'... 'Talking' about always leaves back uncertainty. One THINKS what I try to post (point on it) is BS but one does NOT KNOW it.
You must be very knowledgeable Mister Newton..speaking of (others) 'we'.... Ever thought about what attracts you at this thread? The intention to 'save' others from BS? Or is it the mentioned uncertainty of own ideology?
Indeed, if it were open only to Philosophers we'd be stuck and in deeeeeeep s**t!!!! Mind, I would say "Thank f*&ck"!
We (reasonable, thinking people) know that it's BS because there is not a single piece of evidence or any demonstrated tangible effect. I'm certain of what you call "ideology" by virtue of the fact that I am able to read what you wrote, when you are potentially thousands of kilometers away. That kinda proves the validity of the scientific method whereas you have proven nothing yet. You constantly try to sell your thoughts as equally valid as scientific thinking, when it's not the case at all, demonstrably so.
TCM, I am not here to prove something and I am not selling something. I am here to share something from other cultures. What one is doing with it is up to everyone. Gorski..what would you say: When somebody would be able to leave things as they are, do they 'become'? It is interesting you said "One MUST have a "special idea of God", ultimately. " wouldn’t that mean 'issues' about will never end?
No, Yen, it means we (Humans) are limited Beings and we are always screwed/bent one way or another... One must start with that and do the best one can - there is no way out. When one says "this is how it is..." or "I know God's will/mind"... Brrrrrrrr... I shudder...
Humans aren't initially screwed up, society screws up humans. Don't believe me, talk to a young child that hasn't been indoctrinated into the cult of the damned.
@R29k: I completely agree with You. Many psychological problems are learned behaviors, usually learned in adolescence and reinforced by distorted messages delivered by an authority figure or by mainstream media. Almost all addictions, while some are enhanced by genetic aberrations / propensities, are learned; i.e acting as a mechanism to enhance peer acceptance. We all are the sum of our experiences.
I disagree with both of you! What I said and you misunderstood, is that we are always leaning one way or another and more importantly, we are always limited by our capabilities, leanings, education and so on... Please, don't twist it to suit your needs... Btw (EDIT), I agree with the kids bit...
Well, strictly speaking, our experiences might be awful and we can still find it in our hearts/soul NOT to behave the same way... This is the basis of Revolution, you see... Please, don't try to erase it - it's my big hope!!!
Anyway you look at it will still amount to society screwing up people. Our choices (leaning one way or another) are dictated by our environment and our environment is a product of society. And sorry to say, the norms and mores of society have been and is still dictated by the illiterate masses.
Go back to my post and read slowly - before you react, please! We are IRREDUCIBLE to our "circumstances", as mighty as they are... Otherwise, we wouldn't have changed anything in our history...