I think so... If you look at the old testament in the Bible, God told the Israelite's when they got into the Promised Land (Canaan) not to worship other gods. Eventually they did. Did God stop them from doing this? God did warn them if they turned away from Him, then they would have repercussions before they did that. The Israelite's were not stopped from God from doing what they did (Freewill) but they did have punishment because they did turn away from their redeemer ( as our father would punish us in order to keep us safe, like a swat on the butt if we ran into the road)
@sid_16: Good point. I've thought about this myself. Perhaps we have free will to choose between one of two paths. But G_D dictates what both of those paths are. I've also heard it said that G_D teaches us, and tests us. How would he test us? He would set up a scenario and place you into it. You have free will to choose what path you take.
What we have learnt in Modernity is that we not only have the freedom to choose between A or B but the capacity to make an option C or D and E, F and ZNJGR option, too!!! If one does not understand that Humans are creative, have imagination, can come up with new possibilities - one doesn't know anything of Humans! As Hegel would put it: "At the beginning there was - future!" All else, when Humans are concerned - is poppycock!
@Yen the chicken was a big fat adult chicken @Joe C time doesn't exist ! @gorski the problem isn't humans, it's the backward, inefficient society that humans have created that hold them back. By the way eternal gods and gods existing outside of time are old concepts. What if the whole system is eternal, just bubbles in a vacuum that cycle, different config every time they pop out and come back!
R2D2: given that the society is OUR product, it means we are "faulty", too. Now, we have done it before - we fundamentally changed the foundational, pillar relationship of a society, i.e the "reproduction of life" paradigm (in a new society we created, say from Slavery to Feudalism, from Feudalism to Modernity/Capitalism) - so we can and we MUST do it again! History did not just stop with Capitalism, albeit Trump and Fukuyama would have us "believe" so... ! However, if we do not change how we see ourselves, our principles of treating our body, "the other" (Humans), as well as Mutty Natur (i.e. our very nature) in such a way so our new fundamental relationship - i.e. the way we relate to one another, ourselves and Nature - from profit based principles to a ratio/Reason/Vernunft/Um-based one - we're screwed... and we'll screw everything on this planet in the process, such is our power and influence on this beautiful but limited rock-in-space... And again - God has nothing to do with any of this. We do!!! None of this stuff is given, none of it was built-in the Big Bang - it's down to us, us who have grown mighty to alter (even destroy) everything we touch...
Yeah, "deep" thoughts, with a genuine and sincere, huge effort forward, sure.... Besides, what on Earth does this have to do with the subject?!? If you are referring to me standing up to racist, eugenicist pigs - then I am proud to have done so and I will do it again, whenever necessary! But for some people, obviously - there is NO learning, sadly... Especially those who claim to know Human Nature and hence want to exterminate most of us, say if we are not as "clean" or as "diligent" as the "judging sod"...
It is not mutually exclusive. The 'keyword' is again time. Let's say there is a fortune teller with 100% success rate. Whenever I make a decision I can only do it at present. As a retrospective then we can check if the fortune teller was right. The fortune teller does not know something in advance! The fortune teller knows it at the same moment when I am making the decision. Duration: zero! Since he does not know it in advance it is free will. People need to make conclusions by considering the present. Communication without duration is a phenomenon also found at quantum entanglement. "At the beginning there was future" IS the dawn of (human) time itself. Human actions are always present, though.
The problem is society is not supposed to work the way it does right now. It was supposed to transcend the pettiness of the individual and become something greater There is too much emphasis put on singular things, and nonsensical things at that.
Yes, there are interpreters who claim that the tricolour flag/Enlightenment password was betrayed very, very quickly... The new, Modern society was turned around very quickly towards owners and against labour, even though they revolutionised society together... So brotherhood (never mind sisterhood) and equality were never really on the agenda properly and liberty was reduced in scope and depth substantially... Hence, a view towards "Human Nature" that overcame the idiocy of Feudalism immediately suffered a setback... which is lingering on... As for Yen's remark re. my point from Hegel - that is a very good way of putting it, sure!
One of the most asinine things the U.S. Supreme court has ever done: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood
No, that is the illusion of free will. There is no free will then it's all part of the plan. Consider the example below: No we're not responsible for our action when and as long as an omniscient God is there.Why! For example, say there is a bowl of candy kept on a counter. I ask "Can I have a piece of candy?". The person behind the desk says "Yes. The candy is free". After I eat the candy, the man behind the counter says "You owe me for the candy." Was the candy free? No...... Say another example, there are a bunch of bowls of candy on the counter. I ask "Can I have a piece of candy?". The person behind the desk says "Yes. But, only if you choose from the bowl which contains the free candy". He adds "Now that you know about the choice you must make it or be charged for the candy anyway". There is nothing to indicate which bowl contains free candy and which does not. I grab a piece of candy from the bowl nearest to me. The man behind the counter says "You owe me for the candy." Was it fair to make me guess which candy was free? No ! You mean to say- god doesn't know exactly what we will do? Equating a fortune teller with God's omniscience is kinda nonsense ! It's like reading a book. Just because you don't know what happen in the next chapter doesn't mean the story can change. I still fail to see what a fortune tellers relevance do with with a god's omniscience. Again, I still fail to see what relevance this has with omniscience. Omniscience is the capacity to know everything past, present also including the future. In monotheistic religions, such as Sikhism and the Abrahamic religions, this is an attribute of God. Clearly you don't understand the difference between freewill and the illusion of freewill. Also, I'm failing to see your point. If the outcome is already known then the outcome is not random but predetermined. Just because you don't know where the train is going, doesn't mean it's not on railway tracks.
Example ? Freewill implies the ability to change your mind. If the outcome is determined, you cannot change your mind and even if you change your mind you'll obviously have to choose the determined one. It's only the fact that you do not know the outcome that gives the illusion of freewill.
I have equated a fortune teller with 100% success rate to 'knows everything'...just as you did by "Omniscience is the capacity to know everything past, present also including the future. " The only difference is that I consider god as an eternal being 'outside' of space/time... 'He' knows everything NOW. The past and the future arise from the present. Omniscience without considering the 2 absolute attributes of God concerning space = infinity and time = eternity is responsible for your misinterpretation that omniscience and free will cannot coexist. An infinite and eternal being can be nothing, but omniscient. Knowing the present, means knowing the future and the past. You still fail to argue without the terms and relations of time. And you do not include eternalism. Besides of that.....how would you distinguish your mentioned illusion of free will and real free will? If I would be omniscient and know anything about you, would it change the way how you perceive your own free will? It's just an idea that there is 'somebody' who is omniscient and therefore knows your future but by that nothing and nobody restricts you in fact. You can think about:" What can I do in this special situation?" You freely can change your options as... I decide to go for A. No I decide to go for B These all remain chronological thoughts of what you will do. Until you do it and that you don't do in the future, you are doing it now and by that 'God' knows it....since 'he' is including all your options and transcends them. Did 'he' know then your future in advance, the fact that you actually will go for B? No. He knew it but not as your future. The future is a product of the retrospective itself. (Idea A was before Idea B hence B is the future idea). Idea B was the final idea because you realised it presently. Idea A just remained as a present idea. Omniscience of an eternal being cannot entail foreknowledge. It can entail knowledge of anything, everytime, though. "Foreknowledge of God" only exists in a retrospective. It describes what I mean: https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateReli...o_atheists_there_is_no_contradiction_between/
Sorry sid. You're equating the actions of other men to the actions of G_D. He has a set of laws (Commandments) which he demands that we follow. e.g. Thou shalt not kill. If I walk up to you with a gun and shoot you to death, I had free will to decide not to shoot you, yet I chose to do it. There's no illusion. You had a choice, and you executed it. See: http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm and http://biblescripture.net/Commandments.html
@gorski: I agree. You can't quantify or even prove faith. Faith, like love, simply exists. I like two parables by Kahlil Gibran Faith Spoiler And Love Spoiler Neither parable is specific. Yet, each conveys a message that can easily be understood by the heart. A message that the mind struggles to comprehend. Anyone interested in reading more from Kahlil Gibran can find his book here. http://www.katsandogz.com/gibran.html
That's right I agree. Actually I just wanted to demonstrate that sid_16's assumption at his thread title has not to be valid when considering or associating eternity to God. The argumentation is reasonable, though. Finally when I make my own conclusions I try to eliminate as many discrepancies as possible....if somebody else can comprehend..well that's secondary. But when googling I always find sources which do support what I think and then I do link to them...and I only post what I personally think what can be reasonable.... The entire debate comes up with issues because concept of 'GOD' and free will are different relative to own definitions... I just want to add / repeat mine: God: eternal and infinite entity....'just' a notion which is colored very different dependent on many many historical facts and belief. .. actually an 'abused' notion IMHO....not at all contrary to science's absolutes, though. Eternal = timeless. Eternal ≠ infinite sequence of linear time. Free will: A being has free will if and only if they could have acted otherwise than they actually acted. There is 'contradiction of coexistence' of determinism / free will.....although a concept of omniscient god / free will can coexist. If there is real free will at all is another question.... But hey....:"Cogito ergo sum"...... so I think I have got free will...LOL. Nobody controls my thoughts. And if it should be 'God' there is the knowledge that God and my inner eternal Self are not distinguishable.... Anything fine....
All religions are just stuff made up by people who claimed to be in chage at the time, to control society and try and give meaning to life. The only good thing about them were teaching basic right and wrong, everything else has done nothing good and history shows that. The more relegions = more conflcts of belief = more conflicts between people in general They have all been re-written so many times over the centuries, mostly for the worst, and little has been proven as fact. Like all the so called artifacts which are 99% untested and most aren't even allowed to be tested, probably because it'll prove the opposite of what the holders of these items believe. You can't have more than one ark of the covenant, if it was real, there would be ONE as written, right?. lots of places claim to have the ark but only priests etc are allowed to see it...some are even guarded by guns. (why?) many places also claim to have the bones of jesus, yet no one is allowed to dig and test..... We don't know any of the people in the bible really existed as there are no graves / proof and the characters in other bible equivilent documents are just too weird to believe in. one planet can't have multple gods, it makes zero sense. or they would be just as bad as humans, bickering over who created what, who is the most powerful and so on. a creator is generally a single individual. creators implies more than one. i can't imagine some being making a plant etc, it's very hard to believe. especially when the bible says the world was created 2000 years ago (had a poster in local church stating that as fact) if that were true, we wouldn't have all them fossels and dino bones and even older things would we....*cough* bs. the greeks and other cultures made up weird religions because they believed in magic and supernatural stuff, as they thought simple stuff like weather and natural disasters were cause by a higher power. god of thunder, god of mischief, sun god, water god and on on. when all that is explainable by science. the only thing not fully explainable...yet is how everything came to be, but it certainlly wasn't some bearded guy in white or he would've shown up by now, or if dead, we won't know will we? i can believe more in a big bang theory that planets formed from swirling material, that's most likely how other galaxies formed right? and why does someone have to have created that? because if someone created the big bang, who created the someone who created the big bang? and so on........ I wish for the day that all religions are consigned to museums as past history, as it hasn't improved us as a race at all. too many religions, groups, organisations, churches and conflicts. if everyone on the planet believed in one thing, we'd all get on together. but no.....science is fake and the earth is flat ay? /end rant.