To me democracy doesn't come from a particular company's ideology. I do not have the claim for that. Democratic can be only a real situation, here the market situation and shares. And this is like stone-age. Those 40% would have left M$ if they could have had the opportunity. Democracy means a democratic real situation. And that can be real competition only and open source.
That is not the issue!!! You keep missing the wood for the trees!!! That is how a company should/ought not behave!!! That is for eejuts and "cyclists" (authoritarian personalities)!!! You are on a board of people who have some good sense on them and can make their own minds up - we do NOT need m$ or any other corp to do it for us!!! You suck on it, if you so wish... Btw, your ARGUMENTS really suck, therefore you do not get things!!! There is no personal insult there!!! Prove me wrong! Show me you understand a single issue in all this, by seeing it in a broader context, properly contextualising it and then analyse the small-print, too... Otherwise, you arguments sound archaic!!!
To be honest I have no idea why you use Windows Messenger, the updates being forced is the least of your issues the whole package is bloated and the service has so many login issues. Digsby FTW !
Yep, you're a genius at arguments: "Btw, your ARGUMENTS really suck, therefore you do not get things!!!" I have nothing to prove to you or anyone else, and I don't really care if you agree with me. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. You're the one trying to ram your opinion down my throat. How about you learn proper English if you're going to try to argue in this language? I don't understand quite a few of your sentences. You see, I'm more of a "Live and Let Live" kind of guy. You seem to like melodrama and want to take things so seriously you're going to get a heart attack or a brain hemmorage by the time you're my age. On this note, I'm done with you. Say all you want, it won't matter, you're not going to drag me down in the mud with you any longer. Good day!
When you start addressing the issues that I raised we may actually debate the issues... But what you are doing right now (ducking and diving) is pitiful, really...
I hate to do this to you Socrate, but (oh, and by the way, make sure your sarcasm detector is on)... Your boot volume, for Longhorn and later, needs to be NTFS. This is imposed by the setup program. A lot breaks if you circumvent it. You missed my point there completely. You can't possibly have forgotten the whole "Vista Capable" debacle, and how people were willing to sell their souls to get Glass on their $20 motherboard's IGP. Just made the Start menu bigger, not a big learning curve, is it? I could rant for a whole paragraph about this. Suffice it to say, it's not that simple. Yes, a 32-bit ISA, virtual memory, V8086 mode, 4GB address space, etc. had nothing to do with it. Right, because Windows 95's DOS emulation was just sooo perfect, and it's not like anybody had years-old DOS-based line-of-business applications that had to keep running... That's why GUIs took nearly 10 years to become standard on PCs, and it was the original reason to hate Macs (all that graphics). "... they [Macintoshes] spend too much overhead being nice to you." - Terry Pratchett, PC Format, September 1994. I'm really starting to show my age here, aren't I? Most of them lacking the compatibility level of IE. And IE is there, straight out of the box. I know you'll all start flaming for that comment, but it's based on personal experience, not what some tin-foil hat freetard on Usenet told me. Not to mention you install these other browsers, IE is still on your hard disk. Bonus strange analogy: Yes, you're allowed to buy other cars, but the first one MUST be a Porsche*, and the car will beep its horn and insist you drive it every so often. * Insert brand of favourite car here. See above, almost word for word. Resulting in an unsupported computer configuration. Bonus edit: And opens the door nice and wide for kernel-mode rootkits to get into your system. Still bites people on the bum though. I'm in the process of reimaging one of my servers because of it. At last, something we can agree on.
I can't believe I missed THE BLOODY RIBBON! I still use Office 2003 as a result, and it's one thing I don't like about Windows 8. Bonus apology: Sorry I've been gone a few days. If I'd known I would stir up this much teeth-gnashing, I wouldn't have bothered going to work this week.
Now that I've praised you Warrior (and thrown a few Thanks your way ), let's get into your first post (that I'm really sore that I missed): All very true points. But there's two whole other universes you're missing here: retail media and piracy. I have (I can hardly believe it myself) a genuine Windows XP retail CD lying around here somewhere. Activates just as great as the day I didn't buy it (got it from a friend) once I call Mr Microsoft. As for piracy, which thread is by far the most popular on MDL? Daz's loader of course. And last I heard, the piracy rate for Windows is still in the 50-60% region. It seems to me that people (here on MDL) are crying about something that, even in the long term, won't affect them. That's the apples of your argument. Onto the oranges... The problem is, the great unwashed masses (as call them as I sneer down on them ) of Windows users, probably 75% or more, aren't actually the type who are here on MDL sinking their boots into Windows 8 (or to be more precise, Metro). These masses are, let's face it, sheeple who just use whatever's dropped in front of them. They won't be vocal about Metro, they'll just get used to it. They'll mindlessly repeat what more savvy people (the kind MDL does attract) say for a while (see: Windows Vista, even though everything wrong with it was ironed out by (the time of) Service Pack 1), and then it'll be completely forgotten; even before the first Milestone Alpha of Windows 9 drops. Wow, feel the power of my sneerage... In summary: the masses aren't forced, they just don't care - as long as their damnable Facebook works. ... unlike people like us who've been in front of computers for decades, actually do things with them, and get rather used to a given UI. But you should, they're rapidly becoming the way to game - cheap hardware (relative to building a new gaming machine at $2,000 a shot every couple of years), interesting control mechinisms, and the fact that piracy is a much smaller problem, causing prices to be lower and offensive, intrusive copy protection being almost unheard of (see: GTA4). But anyway, them's my salvos. Feel free to fire back.
I'll handle R29k and Yen in one post, because Yen leads logically on from R29k's post and my response to it. I'll use Windows XP, Vista, Server 2008, or 7 depending on the circumstances. I (and logic) say nothing happens to older versions of Windows on the day Windows 8 goes gold. Yes, R29k, it occurred to me. Then I grew up and learned how the world really works. Microsoft, in actuality, have zero obligation to the user base. I know that's a shock to hear, but let me explain: Their only obligation is to their shareholders, and that obligation is to make money... as much as possible. If the implementation of chasing those obligations causes things like: 1) Highly-integrated "Microsoft solutions", 2) Dozens of programmers losing sleep over backwards compatibility and ABI stability, 3) Answering the phone when people call, 4) A Windows pseudo-SOE on every computer you buy, 5) I'm sure you're getting the idea by now... That's just a side-effect to get more money from you. Don't confuse cause with effect. "The customer is always right" is so 20th century, and has never applied to large companies/monopolies that can just push you around. This is capitalism. So then, as if he (or she) read my mind two days before I had the thoughts, Yen spake: What am I supposed to do about it? Cry? Throw a tantrum? Vote on a poll on some website? What will that do? I understand people have to vent. Metro is a fundamental change to Windows, as _alex_ mentioned in a roundabout way. Bonus would-if-I-could-but-I-can't-so-I-won't: I did read your post _alex_, and I would have liked to respond to your points, but to be brutally honest, your argument style is insulting, your points nearly as vague as gorski, and your conclusions as canned as Campbell's. Sorry. Let's be friends? But really, everyone hurling insults at each other? What will it accomplish? Is Metro going to be removed/redeveloped? Linux will get over 1% desktop penetration? Capitalism will fall and world peace will prevail? NO. I really didn't want to descend into philosophy with you Yen, because even the brief exposure over in the "If a tree falls..." thread left a sour taste in my mouth. But here we are: life is hard, and you rarely if ever get what you want. It's that simple. I learned very young that I won't get what I want if I throw tantrums. But then, my mother was horribly controlling, and so I didn't develop normally. But even if I were the tantrum-throwing type, if I laid in bed at night, crying myself to sleep because I'm in my 30s, I don't have a husband, I certainly don't have children, and I've probably missed my chance at life, my bloody uterus biologically ticking away to nothing, because all I have are my work and 10 computers, do you really think something as totally unimportant as the UI on my computer is worthy of my tears? So no, it's not OK with me. But I have waaay more important things to worry about. I was really going to chew you for this comment, but reconsidered when I remembered you were an admin. No other reason, mind. Just like in democratically-run election. In fact, it's better than an election - that 40% are free to use older versions of Windows, or Linux, or even Hackintosh if they're really intent. After an election, you're stuck for 3, 4, 10, whatever years. "The world" and "the human race" are two seperate (but not unrelated) things, and the bones of Homo Sapiens will long be dust before the world even looks like ending. No human will ever get close to seeing "the end of the world". Just as one day, Windows (and probably Microsoft itself) will be gone. You, I, or anyone else here probably won't be around to see it, but I can assure you it will happen. Computing will happily keep on trucking. All you see is temporary. (Me := Hate philosophy) Bonus calm-down: Now that I've detonated and my hands are shaking to the point where I can barely type, feel free to reply everyone. All posts will be read and considered, even the insults and death threats.
Hey man just points of view. yeah, you call vague, i call not not deeply explained, beacause i'm assuming that most of us "understand on his own experience and needing" that Metro for how much Microsoft call fast and fluid, innovative is just a commercial step to get money, nothing called better than 7 desktop experience. Average Joe will not get into learning curve, just use PC as done before... for average Joe getting used to metro will be hard For us, well, just a walk in the park yeah, this does not mean better! This is said all around the web. And you want from me a deep feedback with video and deeply explanation why the Metro code "as is" is crap? No, it takes lot of time to do it, i'm not a blogger neither a programmer, and i have a life outside the forum. I'm just a user, i'm insulting someone? yes just M$, as milion of others do, to not listening at customers, you remember how many 7 builds leaked and we tested? You know why Microsoft has done massive success with it? Leak=more test=more feedbacks=customer listening=better improvement=massive success Windows 8 No more Leaks=less of everything= just Microsoft idea of greed of money= Which success? Let's be friends, this is just opinions in a friendly and well organized forum, it wont change nothing, it will just keep us here to discuss for more than 40 years
Unfortunately, it looks the same from the outside. Sorry, I started the last four or five(!) posts criticising the level of hostility in this thread, only to end up becoming ultra-hostile myself. Now that I've calmed down a bit - yay for friends, I just had a visitor - I can see how badly I unloaded on not just you, but R29k and Yen. Microsoft (and in fact every software company) has been doing this for years though. I would have thought everyone these days would have a marketingspeak filter installed. Erm, I'm not following the grammar there, I'll presume you're saying: Maybe I'm just reading too much into your avatar. But anyway, history will have the last word on that. I doubt in the long term Windows 7 will be as remembered as, say, Windows 95 or Windows 2000. But that's the curse of being a point release. Now there I have to disagree. The unwashed mass of Joes will actually have less trouble than the rest of us. We use all the features of our UIs extensively, and often. They become second nature, almost reflex... Joe, on the other hand, doesn't do much with his computer - hell, most computer users these days simply use them as Internet terminals. As I said above, and I stand by it, this is the class of "user" who don't care about anything except their Facebook profile. So? You have to keep in mind this is still an unreleased operating system - the vastest of the vast majority of people who will end up using Windows 8 haven't used it at all - at best, they've seen screenshots, and maybe disparaging claims from other people who may or may not have used it themselves (remember the unwashed mass of sheeples' tendency to just parrot others) - and further, why would this more... casual class of computer user spend time and effort downloading a Preview version, at 3GB a hit every couple of months, and install on their perfectly good machine? Unless they're especially brave (remember, most computer users think if they press the wrong button, they'll damage the computer internally!), this isn't going to happen anywhere near as much as people here seem to think. Microsoft may well boast about X million downloads of their Preview editions, but since, as an example, I'm downloading three each time (i386 version, AMD64 version and Windows Server 2012), and then add in aborted/restarted downloads... Bonus bitch: And who the hell built that stupid Java download thingy? That twerp I'll be happy to stranglel! Microsoft made the same claims with Windows 7. And guess what? I never saw a Windows 7 machine (except my own, of course ) until it was in the shops. And I see a lot of computers, from offices to peoples' bedrooms. No video please, I'm Australian*. * The land of venomous everything and tight download limits. Please, slip another gigabyte on the barbie for me... Wow, me too! We do have something in common after all! A user with 20 years experience (see, I do read your posts)! It makes peeps like us very set in our ways. I, for good or for ill, have (far too much) exposure to the great unwashed, and all my comments about them being vacant Facebook consumers is not simply pulled out of the sky. This is where you go off the rails a bit. The goals of Windows 7 and Windows 8 are two completely separate, and bordering-on-unrelated things. Windows 7 was simply a tidied-up version of Vista. Sorry, but that's all it was. At the time it was rushed out the door to cover the (more marketing than anything else, in retrospect) disaster that was Vista. They had no plan, no vision. They were building "Windows Not Vista". Fast forward three years - now, you have to go a long way to find a (normal) person who has any enmity for Vista, and most people I meet have come recognise that it was a required stepping-stone to get to 7 - since, you guessed it, they never used it themselves, merely parroted others' criticism, and just skipped straight from XP to 7. Vista, at the end of the day, was just rough around the edges, as everyone (like us, that is) knows x.0 releases are. And with SP2, I see no real difference between it and 7 in operation, performance, or anything. Believe me, I use both on a daily basis. Bonus aesthetics: I tell a lie - I really like Vista's wallpapers! And the tray icons have colour! Windows 8 (here we are, full circle) is different. Microsoft have a vision (short-sighted and stolen from elsewhere as I may think it is) that they are desperate to implement and get out the door. Of course, most of it is "Oh God, we need to get this onto tablets before the iPad owns everything", but if you take a close look, you'll see that they have become a little more like Apple in recent times - taking gambles on interesting "appliances", and going for a certain "feel" for example. Some have paid off (like the Xbox 360), some haven't *coughZunecough*. It may not tally with reality much, but deep down this "vision" of Windows 8-powered tablets in everyone's hot little hands is a strong one in the Microsoft developers' minds - just have a look at MSDN blogs and their posts on Windows 8. Look at them going beserk! "Oh wow, we're doing this in 8"! "Another awesome thing we're doing in 8"! I haven't seen this much energy in the Microsofties since they were readying Vista - which happens to be the last time Windows had revolutionary (and I choose that word very specifically) upgrades. And because people go "omg M$ we h8 metro", you expect them to just stop in their tracks? Hah! Not going to happen. This is the closest Microsoft gets to religion since Slick Billy Gates retired - and probably should be considered a religion - this, at the end of the day, probably is a do-or-die moment for Microsoft. It's certainly seems to be how they're thinking. Again, how this whole thing turns out in the end is for history to decide. Not a bunch of (let's face it) rather disconnected guys and gals on forums somewhere. Or until Windows 8 goes gold and takes over the world. And with that peeps, I think I shall retire from this thread... Bonus nitpick: Whoever just said "Thank God", you're off the Christmas list! ... Not because I really want to, but because, at the end of the day, this isn't really much more than a "vent" thread. I wouldn't mind the discussion being a little (read: a lot! ) deeper, but this one's powered by emotion more than anything else - the likers versus the haters, and I've already proven just how easily frustrated I can be by this. So go for it MDLians, have at each other. I'll still be on the sidelines munching popcorn, but I stop throwing my own grenades at you, right... ... about... ... NOW!
So, do you believe that showing contempt for the billion so so customers who use ms os for their desktops is gonna make money for their shareholders...??? Or will this arrogance cause win8 to fail mightily.....???
It's quite easy. When one buys a M$ product then one supports the M$ monopoly and delays innovation and competition. If one likes their products the one should buy it, if not then not. This is what you 'can' do. And if I should have insulted 'somebody' than it's M$ , but not even this I did since I can have my opinion about their products. I know the word crap is no noble language, but M$ is no noble company either. Moreover I even cannot read anything about insulting generally. Important to me is that I care about the future of OS development and it makes me every time kinda sick when I need to notice that money counts, not quality of products. M$ is that rich that they simply can compensate their market strategy faults with money, yes even by ignoring laws. But no issue with you here, SuperBubble. I have a particular opinion which is mostly out of mainstream and people often don't get that I actually take all this with humor. Anyway I stay to my opinions, also about that falling tree, lol. If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is here then one gets a sour taste. Let's be friends.
The customer is always right? Actually that still very much works in the modern day and much more so then supperbubble thinks. That one simple rule of sales still rings very true and if a company doesn't keep its buyers happy they don't last. Ms may be huge but that doesn't mean much beyond that they may be able to survive and correct their mistake. Lately MS has suffered too many mistakes and fallen behind the curve to the point that windows 8 could damage the company beyond its ability to recover to its old levels. As with the car companies any company no matter how big can fail if they forget that the buyer is god. Jobs had a much better understanding of this and gates wasn't too far behind himself. Steve ballmer is a moron though and couldn't buy a clue with all his money. Its one thing to piss off the public but its another to piss off bussnesses and as with windows vista they are very likely to ignore windows 8 and look for others sources of software.