Is Reality an Illusion ?

Discussion in 'Serious Discussion' started by R29k, Feb 12, 2016.

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Is Reality an Illusion ?

  1. Yes

    26 vote(s)
    47.3%
  2. No

    19 vote(s)
    34.5%
  3. Don't Know

    10 vote(s)
    18.2%
  1. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    May 6, 2007
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    The article is interesting. But the author has stopped at intellectual (scientific) approaches, thoughts and ideas.
    When I was younger and very scientifically minded I thought there would be an satisfying answer on the intellectual side.
    But there always remains the fact that it is thought only...

    The experiments in the BBC documentation show that one gets used to changing conditions. The changing condition (right/left flip) is firstly recognized as 'illusionary' then later one learns and gets familiar with it. The former illusion becomes a reality. In this regard I posted reality is not Reality. It is the most common and probable own state.

    Because of this... 'extraordinary' conditions are seen as illusionary states. Hence one has to go for extraordinary states to have the opportunity to grasp Reality.

    The process of Reality is becoming own reality is not a fixed one since own reality is changing constantly and there is the mentioned process of getting used to a 'new' own reality...

    These reflections made clear for me that I have to go for 'extraordinary' ways to change perception AND there is always the chance to 'reach' it NOW.

    Meditation did it then. It clearly unveils the fact that an illusion has to be perceived and then it becomes own reality by getting used to it. The clue to interrupt this is increased awareness on the process of being before it becomes. One lets Reality be....the former illusion lasts more or less time until it dissolves...Reality is 'left'.

    The getting-used-to-own-reality-process becomes no food anymore.


    The extraordinary situation illustrated from the one who fell down the sky (BBC) gives a taste of that what I try to express. I bet similar stress or life threatening situations can cause the same experience...'near-death experiences'..

    Meditation sooner or later gives a taste of it....until then it takes time to dissolve illusions in life-time...one has to de-illusionate...

    The only thing that helps to get own experiences on this is to make them.......I never would try to get in any physical danger with intent, though.:)
     
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  2. Michaela Joy

    Michaela Joy MDL Crazy Lady

    Jul 26, 2012
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    Perhaps the author did that because he didn't want to bring spiritual belief systems into the discussion.

    That's why I brought up the Kabbalah, since his discussion has a basis in mysticism.

    And that's what people like Einstein, et.al. did. :) They literally changed our perception of reality. By wonderfully clever thought exercises. :)

    Man is dichotomous (i.e. dual-natured) We struggle in a tug-of-war between our minds and our hearts. To get a glimpse of reality, we must reconcile our minds and our hearts.

    Otherwise, one will always taint the other. :)

    It's the nature of things. The strongest always wins.
     
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  3. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

    Feb 13, 2011
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    @Yen
    Given that he is a scientist, I would expect no more from him than scientific method ! The unknowns need to be proven so they can be accepted as fact. The flaw I think lies in not accepting the unknowns !
     
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  4. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
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    If only one would study Hegel seriously, one would know that it is what we put in - we get back, no more, no less; i.e. that this is our world, and this is the only world we can know, the only one we inhabit, that this is the only way we can know (it)...
     
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  5. Joe C

    Joe C MDL Guru

    Jan 12, 2012
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    Obviously Mr. Hegel didn't know anybody who was a schiz-o
     
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  6. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    He didn't need to, not his audience - he wrote for sober, capable, untroubled and not doped to their eyeballs people... :D :D :D
     
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  7. Michaela Joy

    Michaela Joy MDL Crazy Lady

    Jul 26, 2012
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    @gorski: Did you notice that the intended audience of Hegel is diminishing?
    i.e. More people are suffering from emotional / psychological disorders of varying intensities and symptoms?

    Any theory regarding reality would have to take that into consideration.
     
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  8. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    May 6, 2007
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    Yes, that's exactly the reason why, I know that from myself. I've posted from 'the younger Yen' a time where I would have posted the same way. The question that later came up to me had been: "I cannot deny there is some dissatisfaction why shouldn't I leave the limits of established science and limit my-self?"
    Until last year I had good contacts to scientists studying at university. I have been invited to some doctor parties...and loved to have interesting debates.
    Nothing has changed with regard to the fact that it depends on the person. Some are open minded, some hide themselves behind their studied matter which required great efforts to get a complex intellectual knowledge..so they remained at 'defence mode'....quite understandable. :)

    To me it had been even the unknowns which made me recognizing that I have to 'search' somewhere else.
    I recognized that I have got a scientific talent. Nothing more nothing less...nothing to defend, nothing to be superior compared to those who haven't got it.

    Yes. :)
    I (one) firstly get(s) familiar there where is most of knowledge. And that is science (for me).
    To the group of the mentioned open minded belongs Einstein, Schrödinger, Heisenberg, Hofmann, Grof..and many more I do not know (yet)...

    As mentioned already. One has a look there where one is familiar. I am not familiar with western Philosophy.
    Anyway since I am a curious I read Hegel and tried to get his Philosophy.
    TBH most of it has gone from my memories already, cannot keep it since I don't have a professional study.

    Some of his writings about Reality impressed me much, though. I don't have enough intellectual skills, no professional chronological and structured study..maybe even too less of I.Q. to get that much as I could be satisfied with...

    I always had the impression that he was not able to resolve the relation of time and could not integrate that into his ideas.
    I am not qualified to assign any value to his works and never would dare it.

    When he was faced with death and we equal that with the end of all illusions...only Hegel himself has experienced how many and if any illusions were left back.....and appeared as fear. Angst of Reality or fear of being 'wrong' or misled. Or at least 'stuck' somewhere...If own reality is a derivation of Reality there is access to it 'all the time', literally. :)

    I myself am far away to have found the 'Holy Grail'... but I take the opportunity to learn whenever an illusion breaks suddenly down and I get depressed. It mostly comes along with a big loss of something that I had considered as given or 'real'.
    Relying on 'techniques' I have learned and am still learning to get soon out of it. :)
     
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  9. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
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    Hegel's crucial idea is time and it is the corner stone of his philosophy, the most Modern - heart of it all.

    He is the first to put Philosophy "to work" in the hitherto untapped medium - time/history. He is seriously well grounded there!

    Moreover, his speculative approach itself is the best way of proceeding: he starts from the Whole and develops it carefully, only to come back to its Unity but now well worked out and loaded with concrete historical content.

    See, Humans are Beings of Time, in fact very specific Beings of/in Time: at our Beginning there was Future! Else, without our ability to come up with a historical novum - we are nothing!
     
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  10. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    That can be right....
    But Hegel never left the boundaries of human reality. He has an abstract term of Reality something away in the time..but it does not 'deserve' the capital R.
    IMHO he was trapped in his own intellectual complex. IMHO...the Kabbalah, for instance is here not. This opinion is of course based on what I personally know about Hegel.

    The Reality is reasoned "im Sein" (in being), human and human reality is reasoned 'im Werden' (becoming)
    "I am" is Reality. "I am Yen" is own reality.

    You cannot be in the past and you cannot be in the future. Being is only now. Being in the past and being in the future are present ideas.
    Novum is coming now. It gets its historical place after becoming of time.
    Hegel did not consider this simple fact.

    Human identity becomes every now by perception! It is no fixed event in the time.
    Also 'time' is becoming every moment. When having a retrospective on this moment time appears with different duration. Time is relative!
    This is an dynamic process, own human identity changes 'during' time. But from the 'perspective' of being/Reality there is no change.
     
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  11. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    Ermmm, no, this is not how it should be "interpreted", Yen, I am happy to report... :) :D

    However, you might like this: https://www.academia.edu/34791291/K..._content?auto=download&campaign=weekly_digest

     
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  12. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    It’s not interpretation (no intellectual performance).

    It’s about far more. It’s not about an intellectual achievement; it’s about a new consciousness.
    You can only be now and the real Novum is now. It never will be nor had it been.

    It’s about the Reality of the Now and the illusionary character of the past and the future.

    It’s about extraordinary life situations, stress, life-threatening situations where people are forced to change focus/consciousness the same way, temporarily.
    Are their 'reports' rational/sober and comprehensible? Rather not...

    Basically it is all about a very strong and precise focus on the now.
    It is an enforced introspection and retraction of energy of thoughts which are about future and past.

    You cannot think about it to ‘know’ it.
    You don’t have to get into life-threatening situations to experience it, though.

    You only have to give the same impulse to your consciousness.
    You focus on inside of yourself and try to observe as much as you presently can.
    You take on an identity of the observer/witness of the now…and ‘see’ what ‘happens’..
    You take away energy from thoughts and move it to attention/awareness.
    This requires constant efforts since it is no familiar way (yet)…


    One of that attribute that makes us human that can survive is still inaccessible to most.
    The ability to observe how being becomes…how Reality becomes own reality or with other words how illusions can be recognized as such.

    If humankind is not resolving illusions humans will destroy nature and themselves due to an illusionary way of life…it’s all about awakening.

    No western Philosopher has recognized that actually any human is suffering from an illusionary self-awareness, because they were/ are affected as well. ‘Sober and capable’ are the self-defense mechanisms of the illusions.


    Mental state of humankind is appalling. Wars, pollution of earth, psychological and physical violence among humans.
    The pressure on humankind to develop and overcome this mental-disease will rise and rise. Until then history and human cruelties will repeat….it requires a major mental evolutionary step comparable to beings of sea which had to leave their habitat to make their first own steps onshore.
     
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  13. JFKI

    JFKI MDL Expert

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    Yup... That is exactly what the powers that be are banking on. And you'd better believe that they are molding that illusionary character to be exactly what they want it to be. ;)
     
  14. totalbeliever

    totalbeliever MDL Junior Member

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    It is not an illusion :p
     
  15. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    #335 gorski, Nov 3, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2017
    Yes, as soon as you invoke "consciousness" you invoke "interpretations" and those depend on many, many elements, that differ from one person to another...
     
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  16. WindowsGeek

    WindowsGeek MDL Expert

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    The bottom line is no one really knows anything, live your life the best way u can , why worry over this life is very short and could for any of us at any moment.
     
  17. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    At human retrospection yes. But the present (process) and its interpretation are different and separate and it depends on many elements as you've said correctly.

    Consciousness cannot be invoked (you are already) and interpretation is not its mandatory consequence.
    To many of us it is. And that is part of the mentioned illness.
    It is the reason why humans are 'stuck' in unprogressive/reactionary 'responding'...conform to their conditioned and old mental abstractions.

    But humans are able to change perspective. From the perspective of the Now you are not 'the passive interpretator' you are witness of interpretation of your perception relative to your idea of yourself.

    From this 'perspective' comes Novum which is bringing real mental progress.

    There is awareness before and without interpretation. By focusing of the now duration extends (the BBC mentioned phenomenon) and you become witness of it. You know that it is not enforced, you recognize to have a choice.

    Nobody can find an satisfying / real answer at any posts, nor at any papers.
    To know awareness of the now one has to be aware of the now.

    It's similar to talk and read about sex compared to the now when having it :D;)
     
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  18. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
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    Yen, consciousness does not automatically follow if you simply are.
     
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  19. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

    Feb 13, 2011
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    So why "are" you?
     
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  20. Joe C

    Joe C MDL Guru

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    If gorski wasn't gorski, then what would gorski be?
     
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