Is Reality an Illusion ?

Discussion in 'Serious Discussion' started by R29k, Feb 12, 2016.

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Is Reality an Illusion ?

  1. Yes

    26 vote(s)
    47.3%
  2. No

    19 vote(s)
    34.5%
  3. Don't Know

    10 vote(s)
    18.2%
  1. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
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    Only consider Heidegger when you're about to croak or something.... :p :D :p

    When Hegel died, the comprehensive approach to Philosophy was divided: Marx got labour and struggle and Heidegger got death...

    But here is the issue: everyday notions do not work well in Philosophy. If anything, Philosophy questions the everyday attitudes and values and in so doing frequently turns things on its head, to an outsider.... ;)
     
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  2. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    May 6, 2007
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    Hmmm. It's a general issue in life and even more at different Philosophers. Different definitions of terms and hence another 'system'...

    I think it's rather about definition of terms and their logical and systemic relation which is THEN predetermined.
    One should say Sein according to Hegel is....

    For instance you can determine that the process from nonbeing to being is becoming.
    The question is if there is a nonbeing / being dualism at all. It is a construct of human thoughts.
    From the perspective of consciousness as whole both are the same.


    If being 'still' lacks of the S/O dualism then there is 'nobody' who has become yet.

    To me being has no S/O dualism. It also includes the time/space dualism. You are...'there' when you are in deep-sleep. You are aware of it in meditation! There is no S/O dualism. No idea of human or dream identity yet.

    From Sein to Dasein (being here) is becoming. Becoming is the birth of the S/O dualism.

    This is the way I use the terms..:);)


    Either way...what I miss at Kant, Hegel etc. are the practical approaches. We are encountering different 'states' in life ..for instance what about sein and werden in deep-sleep?
    Researching there would have lead to more benefit for humankind than an abstract and academical Philosophy.
     
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  3. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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  4. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    I would not say it is a waste of time.
    I think one has to consider what can be achieved. Studying Philosophers / western Philosophy gives one access to their Philosophy, 'system'. When 2 people then have got it they have a common 'base' of terms and a debate is reasoned on this 'base'. This is good for a proper communication, generally.
    Anyway I would leave that at the pros, one like you. :)

    I myself have found a place at organic Chemistry. And I read from time to time the sources that have been posted (here) out of curiosity.
    My 'pro' job is to apply what I have studied and to teach what I know at the company where I work.

    When it comes to the thread’s topic I rely on that what I know and what I experience. I try to illustrate and when doing that I can only rely on that what I currently know. I have another 'tool box' so to say just like other people have their own.
    There are famous scientists and philosophers who are pointing on illusions. (also found some and posted at this thread).

    I think it is important to find out how they appear at one's own life and how they are perceived. Studying philosophy for myself would help concerning a proper debate, but for 'my own' I go for practical ways using 'my own toolbox'.

    -Hunting for the 'substance' as described by Schrödinger....when you compare the 'space' between atoms to the places of a mass.... matter consists of 99.9% of empty space, anyway matter appears as solid objects. When hunting the trace is lost.
    -Hunting for the place/location of an 'I'. When doing that the trace gets lost....nobody can point to a location of an 'I'....
    -Space/time continuum, time is relative...time is part of a dualism.
    -Timelessness of the Now...consciousness as whole timeless, space-less. The objects in there then let us relate. From A to B there is 'then' space relative to 'us' and appearances are changing, perceived as time....
    -Kant figured out...phenomena we encounter (facts) may not be in dispute but the way we order/interlink them (our thinking behind it all) is the real difference.

    The interrelation of dualisms. Including and transcending. From many to less.
    The Reality seems to be like a cinema screen, the movie on it playing is its own appearance, personal reality.
    The movie 'changes' the screen remains unchanged, though.
    ..many more...


    What's a waste, though is to study matters inconsequently I have to agree.:)
     
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  5. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    So, you say: "Either way...what I miss at Kant, Hegel etc. are the practical approaches."

    And all the time you had: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=primacy of practical reason in Kant&t=opera&ia=web

    So, you see, while discovering hot water all over again you are wasting your time, since you simply are not informed sufficiently... ;)

    Nothing bad in itself, since the journey itself is also important, not just reaching the finish line... ;)
     
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  6. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    Yes you are right. When saying that I referred to what I know about both and that is not very much I have to admit. (And I posted that before you've posted the link so I could read after my statement)...:p:)
    One 'issue' is also here....how the German terms are used and translated.

    An example of a paper http://kantwesley.com/Kant/CritiqueOfPracticalReason.pdf
    I actually do have an advantage being native German.
    Anschauung is not easy to translate without to lose something of the meaning. Intuition is a part of it, but when translating it with intuition the 'other ways' of Anschauung are lost.
    Some English terms are relatively crude compared to some German terms.

    It is funny the author is struggling with the same terms, Erkenntnis, Schein, Willkür, Erscheinung.

    Triebfeder.
    I used driving force BTW.

    Not easy are terms like Bewusstsein, Bewusstheit, Sein, Dasein, Werden, Geist, Gegenwärtigkeit, Verstand, Vernunft. Also Echtheit / Wirklichkeit...wirklich / echt...
    One has to be very familiar with Kant and Hegel to get how they are using them.

    With 'missing' of practical approaches I rather meant experiences of their own life, human 'states' such like dream state ('who' is dreaming and what about when one wakes up) or practical eastern meditation. Also practical introspection like when the subject is hunting for itself it always meets objects.
    Also time and with it its absence at the 'Now' and the character of a retrospective and future of the Now. (The Now compared to thoughts. 2 ways of consciousness. Seinsbewusstein und der Denker.)
    One could say Einstein was later....but other people already said: The greatest obstacle to Reality is the time...
    Maybe they did not consider that time is part of a dualism and they considered time as an absolute.

    Anyway I think the driving force of humans to Reality does not require a special studied matter...unnatural being causes suffer and suffer is a general driving force for a change. :)
     
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  7. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    I'll read that entirely as soon as I have got more time.

    Anyway when 'ego' interests come to such matters they lose the natural purpose.
    You can find things like that:



    And all the flavoured comments.
    The categorizing mind does his job..and you find a lot of comments on such processes which can be made as retrospective only.
    Some are amazed or amused and with that there comes the idea and will to understand it, to question it, to prove it.

    Finally it is about to exercise to get another perspective of awareness of the Now. The 'common' process of human perception includes a sequence of categorizing thoughts/ learned patterns. These 'steps' are usually not perceived as such, but as an entire complete sequence.
    But there is perception 'before'. Consciousness as a whole does not (yet) differentiate observer and objects of observation. It is perceived as unity of all what IS without any determination. And debates about that lead to spirituality 'principle of god'...and with that to logical conflicts.

    Anyway it is human. And most people do experience that at such mental 'conditions'. Others at meditation and others have integrated that into common life already.

    The 'instance' that classifies is already a derivation of it and hence not competent anymore. It results to endless debates. One knows it by experiencing. What’s 'later' only I want to answer with Bohr from your link: "You are not thinking you are merely being logical"...'thinking' in that relation requires the mentioned exercises...

    It is a huge disappointment for the 'instance' that wants proof, evidence, to know it intellectually...because it is a question about some-thing without the dualism of some-thing and anything else.
     
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  8. misight

    misight MDL Novice

    Jan 9, 2018
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    Interesting
     
  9. saroljecs

    saroljecs MDL Novice

    Jul 15, 2020
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    Is reality an illusion? I think yes, every person has its own reality. I started to think about it after I read https://samplius.com/free-essay-examples/of-mice-and-men/ it turned out to be very interesting for me. Instead, according to scientist and philosopher Bernardo Kastrup, some researchers suspect that matter itself is an illusion. The only real thing in the universe is information.
     
  10. LiteOS

    LiteOS MDL Expert

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    #391 LiteOS, Jul 20, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2020
    perception is just a key to experience many diffidence of realms
    so realty as real as they can be is just illusion same as any other
    so there no realty that is really realty

    so questioning ur really is
    out of the question :D
     
  11. LiteOS

    LiteOS MDL Expert

    Mar 7, 2014
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    its good cos if not
    its not really good reality / game :D
     
  12. case-sensitive

    case-sensitive MDL Senior Member

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    #393 case-sensitive, Jul 20, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2020
    There should be another section on this web site for threads like this . Maybe call it the troll section ...... or the morons talking in circles section ........ or maybe clever dick section ......... or maybe pseudointelectual circle wank clever dick moron section ?

    Define reality . Real reality or personal reality ? What has personal reality got to do with reality ? Reality is whats there when humans are not there .

    Whats an ilusion ? Whos ilusion ? ...... The only real facts are ......i am ...... and ...... everything is moving ? Everything else is an asumption .

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism
     
  13. LiteOS

    LiteOS MDL Expert

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    I just took the idea from DMT drug when people saying there are other worlds and different reality
    and when they are coming back to their body
    their "perception" [ or ego ? ] start to kick off and mask all [forgetting] what they learn their DMT experience
    so they will be able to experience the world without feeling the illusion around it

    no need to get upset about this
    everyone saying his idea just for the fun of it

    im not gonna open bookstore and sell my books :D
    no body gonna buy this crap
     
  14. case-sensitive

    case-sensitive MDL Senior Member

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    Wasnt shooting at you :)

    We're talking about subjective and objective things / experiences / claims and the difference between them ....... and their validity .

    At ...... ' The machine elves ' and co . ...... Thats called ' The politics of DMT ' and is spread by people particularly on an esoteric web site called DMTNexus . Its people that dont understand their own psychology or the effects of drugs .

    Its common for people to come down from such an experience and be so egoistic that they cant admit to themselves that it was all fantasy = Their fantasy = The effects of a drug on their minds ....... and their minds reflecting what they expected .

    In this case terrence mckenna a very well known bard , nutcase and auther of several science fantasy books went to the south american jungle and had a DMT trip where he saw ' Machine elves ' .......... after reading ' Gulivers travels ' . Then other people claimed that they'd also seen the machine elves and speculated that it was a real existing other reality ........ and nowadays other people are taking other drugs and claim that they also see machine elves .

    The question being ....... do the machine elves realy exist or are they just a subjective consequence of ' Set and setting ' ....... The answer is ...... NO ........ they dont exist ...... a trip is a trip and people get what they expect .

    At learning from DMT / drugs ....... I've never seen or heard of anyone anywhere realy learning something from DMT or other drugs . Me included . The only thing i learned in 50 years of trying is that i like it ........ sometimes ......... and other times it can be hell :) ........ my own personal private hell ....... and that we should be very carefull trusting what we call reality ....... and how we see it :) ......... that we should be very carefull with ...... trust / faith / belief .......... and subjective experience and objectivity ...... and instead of adopting beliefs / faith and trust we should be clear that ........ ' I know what i know and i dont know what i dont know ' .

    At other realitys ....... wheres the proof ? The facts ? Indications ? ...... and ......... Have what we think are truthes other possible explanations ?
     
  15. LiteOS

    LiteOS MDL Expert

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    i see trust / faith / belief
    as something nice to talk about
    nothing more
    each one can hold to something he likes
    i respect that
    but if i dont see any impact from it
    im not trying to denied it or go with it
    like Taoist approach
     
  16. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

    Feb 13, 2011
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  17. Bat.1

    Bat.1 MDL Expert

    Oct 18, 2014
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    Reality must be "Sumptin Else" cause Bat just noticed sumptin STRANGE about dem BLM members telling Bat How to Vote because Bat is Black :eek:

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