Medical Marijuana - Compassion, Decriminalization, Human rights...

Discussion in 'Serious Discussion' started by timesurfer, Nov 25, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Page 7 of 15
  1. Puffingmad

    Puffingmad MDL Addicted

    Aug 19, 2012
    500
    230
    30
    #121 Puffingmad, Dec 8, 2012
    Totally agree with you there Micheala Well stated points

    Regarding no 3 yes what right do they have, I for one no longer drink Alcohol as to me it destroys ppls ability to be rational and control there emotions wither they be good or bad emotions

    Just because I see Alcohol as a bad influence on humanity doesn't mean that I am against others using it

    I think half the problem here is ppl with no education or understanding of what there trying to oppose

    If one persons life is made easy er by the use of weed then it is a good thing we can not have one law that allows alcohol and tabaco and yet discriminate against weed

    I Do Not Tell The Drinker To Stop SO WHY Dose HE Tell Me I have To ?

    LIVE AND LET LIVE OPEN YOUR EYES AND TRY TO SEE THE WORLD FROM OTHERS POINTS OF VIEWS !!!

    It will do nothing but improve your knowledge and understanding of this world
     
  2. redroad

    redroad MDL Guru

    Dec 2, 2011
    5,326
    6,044
    180
    #122 redroad, Dec 11, 2012
  3. Yen

    Yen Admin
    Staff Member

    May 6, 2007
    13,101
    14,047
    340
    #123 Yen, Dec 11, 2012
    To group 3 belongs also the government with their rules.
    What others thought about me (when I smoked weed) didn’t matter cause I didn’t care.
    I am and I ever was ‚special’ enough to live my life (which ever was ‚out of mainstream’), lol.
    (As you might notice about when reading my posts at MDL). :biggrin:
    This is actually not the problem. The problem is the criminalization. And when is one a criminal.

    There are goods which need to be regulated by laws.
    And we have substances which have an action on the CNS.

    OK, how could be cannabis handled with responsibility?
    We should not forget that we are an active part in our society and there are situations in life at which the actions of [drugs] are or can be dangerous, also to others.

    I mean driving or working under the influence of drugs.

    So when we want that cannabis should be legalized, the governments job is to regulate it.
    At alcohol we have BAC and the limits. It is regulated very different in each country.
    Here BAC >= 0.5 parts per thousand one loses the driver license for one month and has to pay 1000€ (first time) and one gets a record at a special database of 4 points. The higher the BAC the higher the degree of penalty.

    It is not easy to determine limits since there is a greater variety in different behaviors when consumed cannabis.
    At alcohol the behaviors of different people are more similar but anyway there are many different laws concerning how to punish people.

    Cannabis has a much longer half life, when consumed frequently it can be still detected 3 months later after the last use.
    The actions I’d say last 2-4 hours only.
    So a zero limit (no tolerance) would be problematic. One who enjoys the evening with a joint and goes next morning to work by car would be THC positive, even though the actions are gone already. (If they are gone or not is an issue at some physician, though.)
    To determine THC limits is very problematic.

    The argument of cannabis opponents that if the government legalizes cannabis the road accidents will increase, is IMHO not a point.

    There ever will be people who cannot be responsible when using a thing, no matter what it is.
    And those who want to use cannabis are using it already.

    ATM there is zero level or a very low level of 1 ng/L. So if one behaves strange and THC can be detected one loses the driver license at once and has to go to a psychologist and has to endure a medical examination and if OK then one gets back the license.
    (One actually is treated as a leper).

    Generally I want to add some own ideas, also based on experiences (friends and own).

    It is actually quite easy when one can speak of abuse (no matter if it is chocolate or cannabis, lol).

    1.) When it has become daily routine. (The condition without it is not available anymore).
    2.) When the original reason to consume has become unaware.

    Frequent use of cannabis has a huge influence on the STM. And frequent use has one major issue.
    That what had been a ‘normal’ condition is not available anymore and gets forgotten.
    The original point of view and the evaluation ability will change.

    So the original performance of the CNS gets into background. This can last years as long as the frequent cannabis use persists. The one can only then notice about how severe the CNS functions had changed when the one stops completely the frequent use of it and the original condition returns slowly.
    And yes there are psychological withdrawal syndromes (especially when used frequently with a bong).

    Insomnia, unrest, attack of sweating, (the ability to fall asleep without cannabis needs to be relearned)….
    These withdrawal syndromes may last a week or even a month.
    It is without doubt that frequent cannabis use is negative for CNS performance, especially learning ability and motivation.
    (Too chilled to manage simple things in life...) :biggrin:

    In a performance society one can encounter several poblems...and can become 'suspicious'. When making a 'mistake' one can come to the idea the use of cannabis is the reason for it....

    How is it at other countries, especially there where it has been legalized? And how could legalization and driving or working under the influence of cannabis be regulated in a reasonable way?
    A zero limit is problematic due to a long half life of THC as mentioned already....no limit then?
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  4. nodnar

    nodnar MDL Expert

    Oct 15, 2011
    1,331
    1,064
    60
    #124 nodnar, Dec 11, 2012
    @yen,

    your post would have been exceptionally short,
    but for your bringing up the driving thing.

    which is about the responsible use of cars,
    not alcohol, drugs, or chocolate, imho..

    i strongly disapprove of the irresponsible
    use of cars, it causes many deaths worldwide
    each year.

    as for the ability of authorities in any
    country to detect the inability of a person
    to drive safely, it seems to me it is just
    about non-existent, unless the person used
    alcohol. alcohol is easy to detect, the effect
    is predictable.

    there are cases of regular users of marijuani, as
    you point out. very difficult.

    cases of hard drugs.

    cases of regular use of medical drugs.

    cases of senility.

    cases of physical or mental inability.

    in all of those cases, driving a car becomes
    a lottery. all of them do cause accidents.
    hardly anything is done about it..
    of all these cases, i think marijuana should
    be the least of a regulating body`s worries..
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  5. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
    5,547
    1,473
    180
    #125 gorski, Dec 11, 2012
    Yeah... What about bond-dealers, hot capital investors, gamblers on money market etc. or politicians and arms dealers etc. or "public personalities" or "opinion makers and trend-setters" etc. of all sorts - on cocaine?

    Their decisions are based on very, very badly warped (read "fu**ed up") perception of the world, their decisions have serious impact on our lives and... what of that?

    Slightly more dangerous than weed, I would say...

    And not much thinking on the subject...

    (Deafening silence re. smoking...)

    Why?
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  6. nodnar

    nodnar MDL Expert

    Oct 15, 2011
    1,331
    1,064
    60
    #126 nodnar, Dec 11, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
    very right indeed, gorski, my friend,
    cocaine was foremost on my mind when i typed that..
    it makes people agressive, over-active, they lose their
    sense of proportion, and of course it goes hand in hand
    with the `succesfull` people you mentioned above,`
    im westen nichts neues..
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  7. Puffingmad

    Puffingmad MDL Addicted

    Aug 19, 2012
    500
    230
    30
    #127 Puffingmad, Dec 11, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
    I feel maybe there is one other issue being left of the list here

    I am not sure wither this is a problem in Europe and the us at the moment, but here because marijuana illegal there has been a growing market for so called legal highs. Products with names like chronic, southern high (just for example).

    These products contain synthetic canibods created in lab and some are rated to be 5 to 10 times stronger than herbal marijuana and are popular with the youth here because it is legal

    The effects of synthetic canibods are much harder than herbal     marijuana causing panic attacks and more mental strain than marijuana.
    The government here is banning these substances but as soon as they do a new one is released that is not on the list

    Basically the criminalisation of     marijuana here has created the marked for synthetic substitutes these have to be much more harmful for ppl

    The law is forcing the youth here to take drugs that vary little is know about with properly some bad long term affects
    It would be safer if they all smoked herbal     marijuana

    This hole situation is created by the criminalisation of marijuana
     
  8. nodnar

    nodnar MDL Expert

    Oct 15, 2011
    1,331
    1,064
    60
    #128 nodnar, Dec 11, 2012
    hm, i do not know that either, puffingmad,
    but i do know this, marijuana comes in grades..
    this has been so in amsterdam for the last
    40 years or so, in the 1970-ies, when i knew
    about it, it was called red libanon, black
    libanon, etc..
    i have no idea how the difference was made,
    but one sort was a lot stronger than the other..
    it was not synthetic then, as far as i know,
    but your remark does add a nuance, in the case of
    marijuana.. i think that by the time a
    synthesised variation is used, we are no longer
    discussing a relativily innocent drug.
    by that time we are discussing a potential
    danger to society..
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  9. Puffingmad

    Puffingmad MDL Addicted

    Aug 19, 2012
    500
    230
    30
    #129 Puffingmad, Dec 11, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  10. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
    5,547
    1,473
    180
    #130 gorski, Dec 11, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
    RELATIVELY IS da word, noddy, m8!

    See, some people (as sometimes we are very, very different, in terms of how we react to the same substance) get "panic attacks" or even worse (psychosis or "onset of psychosis") from a single use of marijuana. Not many, perhaps - but enough to put me off for good! I am reliably informed of this phenomenon by the users themselves...

    Moreover, no need for synthetic substitutes, as we have kat/khat/quatt, primarily used in Africa, also several times stronger than "Mara" (a diminutive, since a female Slavic name)...

    Then, it's how it is ingested - apparently eating it can mean sudden rush to the system and especially if one is unprepared and alone...

    Well, you can imagine...

    P.S. New drugs and new anything will always continue to be created - such is our mindset... Even if you have, like now, who knows how many various opiates, new ones are being and will continue to be created... Nothing much to do with the system of banning some or many. They will be created in any situation, regardless, as Human Condition is such...
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  11. Puffingmad

    Puffingmad MDL Addicted

    Aug 19, 2012
    500
    230
    30
    #131 Puffingmad, Dec 11, 2012
    Yes i agree but the speed of development over here has been increased as all of the so called herbal highs here are sold in every corner shop so are much more available to the public

    If society over here had embraced marijuana then the market for the new highs would be much smaller and much less money would be spent on developing them

    PPL would just smoke     marijuana and not feel the need for man made replacements

    Its happening over here the market for legal highs is huge
     
  12. nodnar

    nodnar MDL Expert

    Oct 15, 2011
    1,331
    1,064
    60
    #132 nodnar, Dec 11, 2012
    well, relatively speaking, gorski,
    i can see your point..
    i just have this urge to go back
    to the topic, we just got started
    by looking at the relatively innocent
    use of a relatively innocent drug, as
    legislated by a relatively innocent
    government.. relatively is tha word,
    alright.. and where did it get us?
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  13. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
    5,547
    1,473
    180
    #133 gorski, Dec 11, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
    ...Human Society...

    Since we are related to one another...

    No wonder we "legislate", since we affect each other...

    We should, of course, have the relief close at hand, opium or "Mara", when warranted - no argument there, deffo not from me!

    Without opium when hospitalised with gallbladder inflamed and a stone lodged in the duct I would have been badly done by, literally crawling up the walls, due to pain... For instance...

    But it better be regulated, as without it it's a concrete jungle... I mean, I had to plead with the nurses for more, when it wore off and I had to convince them that I am heavier than they thought, plus I do not have the "addictive personality", i.e. I do not get easily hooked, for various reasons... Still, much better to have such stuff under control, as we know what it may create in vulnerable people, especially at some bad stages in one's life...

    No thanx from me to that "completely liberal" idea... Sorry, I am from the democratic, to be precise Social Democratic Left... :D
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  14. Yen

    Yen Admin
    Staff Member

    May 6, 2007
    13,101
    14,047
    340
    #134 Yen, Dec 12, 2012
    @Puffingmad
    Right and this situation is created because there is a way to make profit and this situation is created because it is a human attribute to be curious (about [drugs]).



    Yes it had been my job to design new drugs (original meaning) and I created more than 500 new CNS active substances. All synthetic drugs come originally from the legal intent to cure and from legal pharmaceutical companies. Later when published it are CRIMINAL minds who circumvent laws and sell those molecules who show similar actions in humans....

    So scientists stripped off the phenolic OH group to create Desomorphine. Actually a potent opioid. Criminal minds then who have no clue of Chemistry then cooked that in underground labs and 'Crocodile' had been created. (very dangerous due to the impurities of Desomorphine synthesis.)

    Heroin came from Bayer, MDMA (Ecstasy) came from Merck, Methamphetamine from Temmler Werke, LSD from Sandoz.....Cocaine and THC are natural substances found in plants...
    Each of these subsances had been tested and abused by the army as well and most had their time as a legal medicine. The USA is well known to have abused their soldiers for tests. I bet other government belonging institutions and other nations as well.

    It are not the criminal minds themselves who create new drugs in a underground lab. They simply cook what had no use in legal pharmacy and what showed similar actions in humans. So they used synthetic cannabinoids which show similar pharmacological actions, but were not regulated by laws yet.....'Spice' had been the prototype.
    Weed which actually isn't weed and legal because it was not illegal yet. And dangerous because there is no tradition and hence no experiences made.


    Your posts are too much blah blah to me, you could be a politician. :D
    Completely liberal idea? Vulnerable people? "

    The point is that governments make money with caffeine, nicotine and alcohol and don't care about vulnerable people at all. And we have weed smoking people already who are criminalized.
    The government needs to legalize cannabis and needs to regulate it. Anything else is political blah blah and far away from current reality,.....:p:)


    nodnar, the question is if people should be punished when they make 'irresponsible use of cars' and how.
    Let's say one has smoked some weed and injures a person with his car.
    THC is a detectable blood value and it is easy to assign irresponsibility to the driver, but was the driver really irresponsible? Recriminations are gladly made in a western society where guilt is the point. Every time one needs to be searched who is guilty. And when people know there is one involved with a positive drug test then the one is guilty at once and needs to be pilloried. The facts and course of events are not interesting to most people. That's a sickness, especially found at republicans of the USA.


    Let me add an personal opinion, which is when discussed with friends more than doubtful to them...

    The police makes random [drugs] and roadside breath tests and they act conform to the laws.
    Means they claim when I have 0.5 parts per thousand BAC then they say I cannot drive anymore and they take away my license.

    They have not the right! I am responsible, because I am aware of my condition and have the right to decide if I can or cannot.
    To me all police checks for let me say influencing substances or conditions are not legitimate.
    I did nothing wrong so far, but the police means to patronize me.
    And they cannot determine whether one is able or not anymore, a value never can.

    So the only legitimate way to go is: Should be a driver attracting negative attention THEN the BAC or THC values can be measured and THEN one can be punished according to laws.

    Is one involved in an accident then those values can be used to determine the degree of penalty.

    Random controls are IMHO NOT legitimate. Also a sleepy person never is made responsible for sleepiness when involved in an accident. So why should one then when having a higher BAC but remains inconspicuous?
    Why should one when THC positive but remains inconspicuous?
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  15. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
    5,547
    1,473
    180
    #135 gorski, Dec 12, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2012
    OK, let's see who's really scared of thinking and not just into some empty rhetoric...

    From what I see in your posts you seem not to be aware of the "third" argument in all of this at all. To you, it seems, only the Liberal-Republican arguments exist. Well, excuse me for being different but I am!

    The governments - at least those not completely cynical and in the pockets of "industry" - around the world are waking up to the fact that all those substances cost everybody dearly and that those substances have to be curtailed and people educated more and more, in order to cut the darn thing at the root... One day ciggies will not be made, I hope. And that we should strive for! That's called a really forward-looking strategy! Everything else is pure blah-blah. Legalising something potentially dangerous (even if it is just to a part of our society) is not the way! Uprooting it is the way! And that can not be done by prohibition and legal optimism alone! Chew on that if you dare... Because then things become really difficult, a really tough nut to crack!

    Legalising it is merely making money from it. Hold on, didn't you make a point about Govs making profit from deadly substances like nicotine and so on? Ach, yes... But you do not want those abolished either, yeeess.... I see... Liberal, in other words....

    Well, I am not "liberal" in this sense, even though I respect the general "liberal" (democratic) framework. But it isn't against democracy to argue against certain phenomena and trying to legislate against it. After all, Liberals (and Cons) legislate all the time, too. But then "it is natural", whereas when the Left wants to legislate, then it's "unnatural" or even "Stalinism"... :rolleyes:

    Oh, yes: prevention - especially via education - is the best, if the most difficult course of action...

    This is the worst kind of political speech available to anyone, what you just wrote, Yen!

    I mean, what kind of "argument" is this? Govs make money from other nasty substances and that means they don't care about vulnerable people. I.e. that is bad of them. Cool so far.

    But what do you do then? "Let's add one more potentially nasty substance to the list, add it to the ever growing list of nasty substances we make money from and we keep not caring about vulnerable people"?!? WOW! Maybe you were on some of that stuff when you were writing this? :D Actually, Govs SPEND AND NOT EARN MONEY from those substances, i.e. the consequences of the use of such substances. But oh, no... Let's forget about the last few decades and getting MORE AWARE of it. Let's pretend...:rolleyes: Hence no one is biting in the new thread re. smoking, I just started...

    You wanna further debase it all, drag everything down even further to the lowest possible denominator, so we can have "equality" for ever more potentially nasty substances, so the list of freely available potentially horror-opiates keeps growing - to what end?!?

    What is it that you want to achieve? And before you answer - what you are advocating is par excellence political ideology! Blah-blah of the worst kind, where no really critical, radical thinking is allowed! You're going to the future with your back turned to it, never thinking of the most radical scenario, as it is too much, too scary for you...

    Unlike you, I am proposing something that is not scared of being radical, free and seriously critically minded - real critical thinking! But it would mean a real change in not only Gov and laws but also society as a whole, in "us", as Modern Human Beings, citizens in the best sense of the word, so drugs are not needed, the way they are misused today, for the most part - in an escapist, worst kind of consumer-driven manner!

    Medical use of marijuana, to go back to the real issue at hand, is one thing. What you are proposing is - scary! Because it is a real recipe for disaster, which Govs, the way they are now, full of short-term "thinking" cynics and nasty sods, actually welcome. They should welcome it. Let's make even more money. It's easy. We just "level the playing field" and we pretend that we are "fairer", in that case...

    Look, the more "soma" there is around, the better for them! Much easier to control the lot... Hence so many chemists have jobs, creating various "somas" today - from medicating even young kids with Prozac onwards...

    Scary! At least to me!
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  16. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
    5,547
    1,473
    180
    #136 gorski, Dec 12, 2012
    You mean you're a bit under the influence? :D Well, good on ya, so long as you're not driving or so... :p
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  17. nodnar

    nodnar MDL Expert

    Oct 15, 2011
    1,331
    1,064
    60
    #137 nodnar, Dec 12, 2012
    @yen,

    this maybe only touches upon the subject of
    this thread sideways, i dunno..
    but what i really mean to say is; if a person
    uses a car in an irresponsible manner, as hordes
    of them unfortunately do, it is not really
    relevant if this undesirable behaviour is caused
    by drugs, alcohol, lack of sleep, or what have you..
    the fact is, that they endanger others as well as
    themselves, which is a nono for me..
    by the time we have to consider sanctions, something
    ontoward will have happened.. and the unfortunate
    thing for me is, that only abuse of alcohol is
    detected and sanctioned, the rest is terra incognita..
    sad, i think..
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  18. Yen

    Yen Admin
    Staff Member

    May 6, 2007
    13,101
    14,047
    340
    #138 Yen, Dec 13, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2012
    Let me quote myself, gorski


    The point is (political) moral and hypocrisy. One cannot be criminalized for something (using cannabis) and at the same time the SAME institution that punishes and forbids and patronizes gets taxes for 'legal' drugs, means earns money with harmful goods.

    My opinion is based on my profession. I don't care how it is politically categorized, Liberal-Republican....
    I research for drugs and herbals for more than 25 years already, I am familiar with studies.
    I simply write as an professional and not as a politican.

    The people who are making laws concerning [drugs] have neither scientific background nor practical experiences.
    IMHO one who has no practical experience with cannabis is not able to evaluate laws properly...hearsay is insufficient to make laws for a nation....



    You are talking of soma do you really know what it means? And no I do not mean that what you have read about...wait aldous huxley was aware of it....
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  19. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
    5,547
    1,473
    180
    #139 gorski, Dec 13, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2012
    That "hearsay" is sometimes known as "science"...

    Does one need to be a military educated person ("warrior") to legislate on war?

    Or a doctor to legislate on national health system, conditions for research, oversight over ongoing developments?

    Does one have to be an engineer to legislate on corporate responsibility in workplace/building sites?

    Etc. etc. etc.

    This is one of the tenets of democracy. But it seems you have a better idea...
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  20. Yen

    Yen Admin
    Staff Member

    May 6, 2007
    13,101
    14,047
    340
    #140 Yen, Dec 13, 2012
    Unfortunately not. Many people are in positions where they have actually no clue, purely academic.....this fact will kill our society. People over-regulate without any practical backgrounds. Politicians do not represent the people's interests, because they are unaware of them. Laws are made without understandings of current situations.

    But you are right professional or not, it is just my opinion based on 25 years of work with the matter. That what you call better idea is just a logic consequence.
    All I claim for is no criminalization.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
Page 7 of 15