Moving AWAY from Microsoft products IS very much possible for many people.

Discussion in 'Linux' started by smallhagrid, Dec 17, 2018.

  1. Krager

    Krager MDL Senior Member

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    I actually find it kind of disturbing how little people value their privacy these days. Some things really do make a difference in how you live your life. Being older I can remember the difference between shopping brick and mortar and shopping online. It does make a difference in the quality of life when you can spend time at home rather than running around town. Most of the rest is just throwing away privacy with no real benefit.

    Even if you guard your privacy to the greatest extent, technology has made keeping it really difficult. There's no way to avoid giving up a portion of privacy living a modern life.

    In any case, a consumer does need to keep things in perspective in terms of how corporations operate, but some are worse than others. Some still do give a crap about the quality and customer satisfaction in their products even when it does not directly impact the bottom line.
     
  2. smallhagrid

    smallhagrid MDL Addicted

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  3. taviruni

    taviruni MDL Senior Member

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  4. smallhagrid

    smallhagrid MDL Addicted

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    If ye cain't beat 'em, join 'em !!
    (Or in the case fo mikr0$0ft - try to assimilate them - while denying that 'Nix already dominates by the numbers.)
     
  5. taylorlawson

    taylorlawson MDL Junior Member

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    They do seem to be throwing a lot of money at it as they have now become a linux foundation platinum member.
     
  6. nodnar

    nodnar MDL Expert

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    yes, there seems to be a standardized pc user in the making, he runs w 10, has a dumbphone,has accounts on all social media, etc. and he could not care less about privacy..but it seems to me that those justanother companies are fast outgrowing their boots, and we let them. time for a reaction to start. [ just trying to remain an optimist..]
     
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  7. digiquandry

    digiquandry MDL Member

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    #28 digiquandry, Dec 21, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2018
    The problem for me is: I spent many, many years of learning curve to master Windows OS. So, going through that again for some other OS is just not feasible.

    Also, for years people have been saying that Linux is so much secure...but then not so long ago it was revealed that even the most touted distributions such as Kali and Tails have serious security flaws that have always existed.

    So, for myself, yes...I still use Windows. But I stay on a legacy OS (Win7), and I am convinced that--if properly configured--it can be one of the most secure operating systems out there.
     
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  8. smallhagrid

    smallhagrid MDL Addicted

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    #29 smallhagrid, Dec 21, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2018
    (OP)
    I too spent many, many years WORKING with the various M$ OSes - while also remaining open-minded towards alternatives to them...here's why:
    Data integrity - an area in which the M$ OSes seemed to be sadly lacking.

    From the very start of the windows GUI on top of DOS (yep - V1.0) it was obvious that things didn't work right & only got more demanding as time & 'better' versions passed.

    The usual results of lost work endlessly brought with them an absurd NEED to re-install everything over & over & over very regularly - the OS (& the apps as well most often).

    To my views, that seemed the same as one's car needing an engine rebuild monthly - too absurd & just plain...wrong.

    Sure, as time passed the demands for such 'rebuilds' seemed to slow a bit - while the nature of the things presented great opportunities for OS fixers like myself to ride these lacks as an occupation.

    Windows + networking + commerce was a great recipe for regular work being needed for many years.
    Much learning of how to force the things to work better too, of course...but then:
    Vista came along and sheer distaste gave this tech the reason needed to retire from being a windows jockey full-time anymore.

    Specifically regarding what is seen at forums these days=>
    It always amazes me to see naysaying folks who chime in just to add:
    'I DON'T WANNA.'

    As was said in the OP here:
    'IF one is open minded AND desires this goal strongly enough.'

    If all one desires is to stay exactly as they have been - great - then by all means stay as you wish.

    By way of contrast however, some folks DO desire improvements via heading in different directions - and some folks even do enjoy learning new things for that purpose.

    This all brings me to see more clearly that it is just too difficult for the larger numbers of folks to give the gifts of help and encouragement in forums - hence all the unhelpful, negative, argumentative entries that come along so often when folks openly ask for help in so many places.

    PS: this entry strikes me as very odd=>
    'Deleted member 31415926 and 5358 others like this'
     
  9. Krager

    Krager MDL Senior Member

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    I think there's an amount of security through obscurity with Linux. People mostly write hostile-ware for the most popular system which is Windows of course. Unix itself is inherently more secure due to its filesystem foundation on rights management, but Windows seems to have caught up there for the most part. Though there are some utilities more readily available to lock things down hard such as "chroot jail", but Windows is offering something similar now.

    Linux is probably the best alternative maybe second to macOS. I've been a Linux user off and on for many years. Mostly used Debian. Though I'm rather disillusioned with Linux at this point. I think it's just become too big for the free for all management style it uses. There's a lack of direction and organization in my mind, no defined leadership. I prefer FreeBSD which does have solid leadership and clear organization for the entire system. It's pretty evident when you actually go to use it. There's a few other BSD based releases that are really well designed and free as well. What I like about them is they tightly adhere to the Unix standards so you know what to expect down the road, no surprises like the Linux systemd fiasco.
     
  10. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    #31 Yen, Dec 24, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2018
    Another point is that it's not easy to categorize 'news' about security.
    systemd has been on headlines about security flaws and to some people it's already enough to read one headline about a flaw to state :" Hey, Linux is also insecure, it has flaws! Did you read that? Why should I move?"

    To categorize news one relates to own knowledge about technical backgrounds and by that tries to make an opinion about severity.
    The news maker themselves also have an influence on that a shocking headline sells better...
    And there are different groups / interests behind that. (There are systemd supporter and conservative people sticking to the legacy sysV-init).
    A sort of fight...

    Each of us can get technical info about a discovered flaw. For instance this original sentence: "An attacker could exploit this via malicious DHCP server to corrupt heap memory on client machines, resulting in a denial of service or potential code execution."

    Assuming now that the reader does not exactly know what a malicious DHCP server really is, this isolated sentence (which is actually out of context, too) is rather alarming....

    When reading the entire description and one knows what's the job of a DHCP server it looks quite different and the flaw 'loses' severity.
    A DHCP server configures IP related settings of its network clients...

    -DHCP server are on the same network segment and usually installed and running on the router.

    -It affects the IPv6-DHCP-Client of Systemd (means you have to use IPv6 support)

    To get a 'malicious' DHCP server (which is precondition) one needs to have access to your (home) network and to compromise it first. Only by doing this the 'systemd' flaw on its Linux clients can have an effect.

    There is no way of an attack 'from the internet outside', except your ISP's DHCPv6 server gets compromised itself.

    The flaw (CVE-2018-15688) has been patched already.

    This is just an example how technical details play a role...not headlines only.
     
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  11. smallhagrid

    smallhagrid MDL Addicted

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    Yes, this sums some important things up quite well (along with its supporting text) :
    Very well said - Thank You Yen !!

    It is too easy to slip into fear of the unknown;
    So, when it comes to non-technical folks there needs to be a bridge from such worries to the safety of reassurances & stability.

    For years I have acted as just such a bridge for a handful of M$ escapees who've had ZERO problems with their alternative OSes - some concerns now & then - yes, all truly minor & easily addressed via conversation & remote access.

    Security problems, crashes or data loss ??
    None.

    The time we inhabit pretty much requires internet usage, and for those happy enough with handheld devices that need is covered well enough;
    For folks who prefer a bigger screen along with a familiar 'landscape' the solution can be made with a very simple PC setup.
    If such a setup can be had that is forever 100% free of BSODs as well as the 'antivirus tax' - and a reachable friend who will happily smooth over any small bumps in the road, then=>
    Solution made & problems easily solved.

    All the aforementioned leaves ONLY 1 facet of the equation needing a bypass IMO:
    The fear of the unknown.

    This facet is what we all have each other to help with when we are willing in doing so.
    In that spirit I close this reply thusly=>

    Wishes for Harmony & Goodwill to All on this Holiday of Light and Love.
     
  12. Michaela Joy

    Michaela Joy MDL Crazy Lady

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    I'm posting this here because 99% of the statements made here apply to users.
    I wanted to provide a perspective from the software developer:

    As a Windows software developer, I see no sense in straying away from the Windows API.
    GDI+ is another mess, and will always provide hours of 'hair ripping' entertainment for any programmer attempting to perform graphics operations under Windows.

    That's what WIndows 10 has to offer me: More headaches and more limitations in terms of development tools.
    That and an OS that actively fights you when you're trying to remove bloat and unwanted features.

    I liked Windows XP, but I never used it with 64 bit hardware. I'm sure it works just fine, with the proviso that you have to lock down your network
    to keep programs from being hijacked (Java anyone? :coffee: )

    As far as 'NIX goes, it's a great OS from the users' point of view. Not so much from the developers' perspective.
    Unless you're writing code that provides text based output; no graphics in the way to screw that up. ;)

    That's not to say that 'NIX machines can't do dazzling graphics stuff; they can. But you really have to work at providing compatibility.
    In some cases, you have to "re-invent the wheel" to provide some semblance of unified compatibility across flavors (flavours) of 'NIX.

    Too much work for me. I don't have the patience to run multiple distros to test stuff.

    So I stay with WIndows. If my code works, it pretty much works on all flavors (flavours?) of WIndows.
     
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  13. Krager

    Krager MDL Senior Member

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    #35 Krager, Dec 27, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2018
    Yeah super PITA for developers to do things like 3D games or other graphically intense stuff on systems like BSD and Linux, the library system is definitely a weak point. There's a lot them and they all have to be in line with the environment where the binary was compiled. A program that works on one release may not work on the very next one if a library becomes obsolete which happens a lot. Sometimes you can get around that stuff with static links, but that presents a new set of problems. So yeah it's probably the main thing holding back a lot of application development for the Unix variants. It's just too labor intensive to keep stuff working.

    Say what you will about Windows, but they are very good about backward compatibility. I have programs that are decades old that still run fine on Windows 10, amazing really. That would never, ever happen with any Unix variant.
     
  14. Michaela Joy

    Michaela Joy MDL Crazy Lady

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    @chblock: And we have the Windows API to thank for that. :)

    @everyone else. Please don't take this as a slur against 'nix. It's really great. But I'm speaking from a developers' perspective.
     
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  15. Krager

    Krager MDL Senior Member

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    #37 Krager, Dec 28, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2018
    I love the design of Unix, POSIX compliant stuff is great, nothing's perfect though. That's just one thing where's there's some weakness. No one is ever going to design a perfect operating system. The ability for Windows to support programs seemingly forever is one of its strengths.

    There's actually a reason why Unix is like that with the library system. The Unix way is to build your programs from source. That being the case it's easy to port source across new library environments. In practice that does not work so well. For one, large programs can be time consuming to build even on a fast machine. Also, many programs distribute only as binaries to protect IP. For those you don't have source to build into a new library environment, the developer has to do that which makes supporting multiple OS versions labor intensive. It's kind of something that gets lost in translation from the Unix ideal to the way people do things in practice.
     
  16. Michaela Joy

    Michaela Joy MDL Crazy Lady

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    That's why Unix and C went 'hand-in-hand', and why GNU C (and ultimately C++) is the de-facto standard development tool on 'nix.

    Each compiler produced Object code that was compatible with the particular 'distro' that the exe was meant to run on.

    The portability was accomplished in the C compiler.
    Code:
    #ifdef VAX_C
    
    bla bla bla...
    #endif
    
    Conditional directives are still plastered all over the place in C++ programs today.
     
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  17. smallhagrid

    smallhagrid MDL Addicted

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    #39 smallhagrid, Dec 28, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2018
    (OP)
    Brilliant commentary regarding the perspectives of coders, thank you for sharing this info.

    This probably should have been titled or somehow otherwise aimed specifically towards users - my bad, sorry.
    It just didn't occur to me when making the OP simply because even after decades of helping others with PCs, I've diligently avoided the coding field entirely for myself.

    Here's why:

    Too complex for my wee brain that just ain't wired for it - and far too fluid - I've enough to manage in this life as it is without adding the need to be continuously re-educated in such big ways & so constantly.

    This choice became clear to me in the era before computers had displays & just used TTYs & punchcards for I/O;
    Yes - I could have busted my brain to become a COBOL or FORTRAN coder & would still have a good income from that for sure, but:
    No thanks, passed it up then & remain of the same opinion now.

    Getting back to my user's POV now:
    As a user I hold all the wonderful talents of coders in very high regard AND greatly appreciate what they make for us non-coders.
    I especially bow to the huge community of folks who have so very tirelessly & freely donated their times & skills to make free alternative OSes as wonderfully reliable as they have become.

    My project right now (as a happy 'Nix user) is that of weaving together Systemback, Aptik & Timeshift in such a way as to have easily 'canned' the fully tweaked OS, and to also have it such that I can easily guide a (distant) totally non-technical user to restore their system in the even of a botched update, etc.

    The motivation for this effort came from that very problem, which has been highly unusual in my experiences, but it sadly does happen.
    This time that notebook had to be shipped back to me from afar (expensive !!), so I am making an effort to avoid such a necessity for the future.

    Ubuntu 18.04 seemed to have more than its fair share of problems - perhaps relating with systemd or other recent changes from what I've seen that other have written about.

    In the past I've seen only great results for all the previous LTS releases with years & years of reliable usages as the norm.

    Contrasting such extreme reliability with the M$ OSes is almost laughable - pretty much like viewing 2 complete opposites with the Linuxes way up near 'incredibly good' end vs. the MS OSes with their BSODs, etc. way down near to the 'ARGH - this hurts' end of things.

    Of course all this is merely said based upon the experiences of myself & a handful of totally non-technical (end user) folks whom I helped to make the switch years ago - so please don't flame me if your mileage has been different !?!
     
  18. Krager

    Krager MDL Senior Member

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    I'm not a much of a coder myself, but I do have some experience dabbling around more often on Linux and BSD than Windows. It's a talent for sure, takes a good amount of training and knowledge to do anything serious with it.

    I'm pretty amazed with the level and range of programs available with nothing but volunteers doing this stuff open source. Lucky for us mere mortals though.

    Unix was never designed for general consumption. In the early days before Windows and open source you actually had to be licensed with a non-disclosure agreement to use it. It's only open source that has allowed these *nix operating systems to flourish. That being the case it's not conducive to software sales and intellectual property. That's always going to limit the stuff you see available unless there's a change in the way people make money from software.