Science/technology and Capital: the unholy alliance - how to tackle it?

Discussion in 'Serious Discussion' started by gorski, Nov 1, 2012.

  1. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
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    One of the major - if not the main - sources of Social Democratic theory is called "Politics against markets" for a reason!

    Here is an example showing clearly what Capital left onto itself is capable of - Dr. Mengele is at work, even today...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20136654

    A series of illegal and illegitimate, totally unethical "trials", experimenting on unsuspecting, poor and illiterate, uneducated and uninformed human subjects, done by thinly veiled pharmaceuticals via "outsourced" companies, far away from prying Western eyes, resulting in faulty and fraudulent results, killing and maiming many on its path, using fellow sociopaths in the country in question, where the trials were/are being conducted - but affecting anyone on the planet, if such "results" and practices as such were to be left unchallenged!!!

    What say you?!?

    P.S. To add insult to injury, somewhat literally, some of the trials are being done in Bhopal, on survivors of that tragedy, also thanks to "science and technology's" unholy alliance with Capital, badly (if at all) politically regulated (framed/managed), plus almost no or very poor inspection practices... "Jesus wept!!!" comes to mind...
     
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  2. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

    Feb 13, 2011
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    Backward greedy leaders create a situation like this, if you had proper people in charge this would be very hard to do.
    Also when you have a country with institutionalized racism then obviously the ones at the bottom will get exploited by the ones at the top.
    Before you start asking the question about the illegal testing and what not, people should ask the question of why the ones at the bottom get a 5 rupee voucher to begin with !?
     
  3. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
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    Indeed!

    But we are in the West and we must also do what we can and must do for this to stop, since the situation would not exist without "our" pharmaceuticals...

    When they ask Chomsky, for instance, why does he always "bash" the US, his answer is simple and sincere but also brave - he says he doesn't run away from problems in his own country and since he knows those problems the best it is his right and duty to address them and his colleagues abroad will take care of their own...

    And he helps those "foreign" guys, too: once he sat with the Turkish "critically minded and socially responsible" professors and activists on the "accused" bench, when they were accused for various spurious "offenses" and put before the judges...

    I agree with him: we attack what doesn't seem right at home first. The level of power and influence of companies/corporations whose base is in the West is such that most of the time only "we" can do something about it. So, whatever they mess up - we better take action here and elsewhere, no matter how far...
     
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  4. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

    Feb 13, 2011
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    Have you ever seen the ads released by drug companies in the US for the side effects of drugs and what not? Here is one called Pradaxa
    The side effects for some of these drugs are so horrendous that it would seem logical to keep the original problem to begin with.
    It seems to me there are many guinea pigs in the west too, it's just that when the drug companies get caught with bad drugs the lawyers take them to the cleaners. Not sure what the system is in India for compensation and what not but it seems nonexistent. You need a proper system in place and to do that you need proper government otherwise lots exploitation will occur. It all falls on moral obligations and for a company that invests millions on a drug, the moral obligations may not exist. You need legal backing to do anything against corporations, don't expect too many of them to suddenly grow a conscience, the pay off is always bigger than the conscience.
     
  5. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
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    Maybe not always but it ought to be made so - much more costly than the potential gain, yes...

    We in the West were once guinea pigs much more than today. We learnt our lesson!

    But knowing what we know, we have an obligation - not only to ourselves!

    We will be affected also - by these unscrupulous charades of "tests"...

    But Humans everywhere ought to be seen as our "kind", wherever...

    However, this part we haven't yet learnt properly, it seems...
     
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  6. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    May 6, 2007
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    The thread title could be more general the greed for money (of some of our companies) and their obligation to their participants /employees and the end user.

    It is found all over the world and it's always a matter of exploitation of the poorer people by the richer people.

    At the mentioned case I see the fault at the Indian government which must have approved those trials and the doctor who has led that studies. A doctor has to comply with the Hippocratic oath.

    I mean what can be the benefit of a pharmaceutical company when gettig those studies?

    At no other place the social democratic principle to control markets by governments is applied as much as it is at pharmaceuticals. No other product but parmaceuticals have to pass such a regulatory made by the particular government.

    So at each market a registration will be only granted if the particular regulatory will be met. And if one denies questionable studies as a proof for innocuousness of the product comming from 'the poor' then there will be no more benefit to make such studies.

    I mean the issue is a general issue. How can a government be protective when greed is there present as well?
    How can the mentioned Social Democratic theory work when the 'ego' problem that causes greed is not solved?
    When is a product harmful to humans? Is it already when one human has died after ingestion? Should it be removed from the market immediately without to evaluate the reasons? Is the manufacturer responsible?
    I mean imagine you would sell a self made meal all over the world and one has died after he's tried it? Simply because he's got an anaphylactic shock because of one of the ingredients you have used....

    It is the will to exploit that is the problem. Let it be 'poor' people swallowing medicine for a suspicous test.

    Let it be high tech companies who out-source their factories to gain more profit and who let their workers work under inhuman conditions such as to work under harmful conditions with poisons and only paying a pittance.......it's like swallowing the slowly poisioning pills of the rich which have many different names....

    ...it is the will to stop at nothing. It is the wrong idea of 'fellow men'. It is no 'thing' which is sick (like technology), it are some humans who are...
     
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  7. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
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    Have you considered a more complex vision of the whole thing, whereby there may be a dialectical interaction between nature and nurture?

    Btw, technology may get out of hand and our product can become too complex, not easy to control and therefore caution is advised, when it comes to Science and Technology!
     
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  8. msr

    msr MDL Senior Member

    Dec 27, 2007
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    Society will never function properly out in the open, that is why it will ultimately all be run from underground bases, with overground gov just being a show.

    Us living in the world as most see it, cannot do much as we are not in any position to say what the real rulers want.

    Science can be literally evil as seen through everyones eyes but theres, but science has been given free rein, and it will always have it. We will just not know about it.

    Like the general public think nuclear weapons(techs that are 70 years old), is the latest weapons mankind has. DO you really think mankind has done nothing in 70 years since?

    I think there is a nwo, but it is underground and running western society and we do not know it. Technology in our society moves very slowly, but who knows how fast things develop in secret.

    As long as they do not discriminate and do it to everyone, that is all one can ask. Science can be evil and have no boundaries, but for them to progress some probably are given free rein.

    So all in all we cannot answer this as most that is developed is hidden from us.

    Like for instance if a mega corporation wanted to do things in secret, it could just build a mega underground city in effect. There is no laws underground, and no prying eyes. How would you guys stop this, you cannot.
     
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  9. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

    Feb 13, 2011
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    An Earthquake would stop it quite nicely :D
     
  10. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
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    :biggrin5:
     
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  11. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    It is the will to disrespect the nature that will determine if they get out of hand or not. Science and technology, both imply to achieve 'something'. Both are here to boost efficiency. The efficiency of an ego's idea. The condition of each of us decides whether or not it is good science / technology or bad.
    Since each of us is a part of a society each individual (condition) forms the collective condition.
    And so there exist different opinions about good and bad science.
    The Germans say nuclear energy is a bad technology and needs to be switched off…each individual condition / idea about this technology has formed the opinion of my society.

    If one supports or agrees with 'products' which are made to exploit others or the nature then the one supports exploitation. It is a constant interplay between the demanders' idea of 'I want' and the one who is able to deliver it, the scientists and new technology.
    And vice versa..the scientists never would develop anything that would not bring home the bacon. (sooner or later, one can bridge a special period temporarily if there is enough capital 'sponsored' or gotten from taxes.....)

    You can create addictions which are essential (Example Monsanto) or you can create addictions which are just here to imply that without that product you are not 'cool'....keyword iPhone (which is not even new technology, lol.)

    We need to stay away from saying it's technology and science! It is always an intention of one or a group of people.




    I have to disagree. Technology is moving fast and not secretly. (Keywords: Space observation, new energies, multi media devices, safety technologies, surgery, diagnostic devices in medicine, 'spare parts' for humans ....and thank god environment protective technologies...and so on...)
    One just needs to make the effort to get the info since they are not found on the street when walking....

    Not secretly in the aspect that the products have to meet potential consumers one day.
    What would be the benefit to develop and to keep the products secretly in the underground all the time? The only difference between Army and 'civil' technology / interests is that the former yaws for human rights / justice and the latter for one's money -by suggesting one must have the product- directly. (As justification to have a legit place in the world)

    The 'one' who is called is always one's ego and its main attribute: 'the lack of something', its synonym.

    The development is hidden, but the products need to become public sooner or later, no matter if a new touch screen ....or a new weapon hitting the inhabited world...it's the ego's goal to make them public to take effect.

    But for both in common is that the satisfaction of a new product / technology does not last a long time.....
    Science and technology are no causes, they are means to an end. The cause is the wrong idea of one's self.
    The wrong idea is that almost no one can be satisfied with the present moment. This is also the driving force of science.

    To figure good science and bad science / technology one has to have a look at the scientists / developers and the politics, not at science.
    Scientists are offenders and victims at the same time. The one more of the former, the other less....


    So finally to me the right way to face this problem is to ask what actually is not satisfying at THIS moment, except just another ego idea which will become obsolete in the future'!
    I mean ask yourself NOW and honestly. “What is not satisfying to me at THIS moment”? And then watch the ego telling always the same old story…blah…lacking of…blah thinking of the past thinking of the future….is there anything real at them???

    This is the sickness of technology and scientists AND humankind....to feed the ego with stuff that actually doesn't have any effect / real benefit except to want 'something' new over and over again.... on one hand we have IPhones and at the other hand people have to die because they have not even something to eat and we had wars and will have new wars.....humankind has reached a top level of mental disease...
     
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  12. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
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    Gaaawwwddd...:rolleyes::p:biggrin::D

    :worthy:
     
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  13. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    May 6, 2007
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    :D....he would know it and would not take it much serious what I wrote....:D....if he exists...lol....:)..and 'he' cannot deny some bitter truths in what I wrote. :biggrin:
     
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  14. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
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    #14 gorski, Nov 21, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2012
    (OP)
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  15. nodnar

    nodnar MDL Addicted

    Oct 15, 2011
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    dear george indeed, gorski..
    how many times will he have rolled over
    by now, i wonder?
    but what never fails to amaze me, in such
    examples of mediocre journalism, is the fact
    that the journalists will point to some obscure company,
    in some rural place, and tell me it has got a £1.7bn
    turnover. they will then go on to make their point,
    as if it is normal for an obscure company in rural england
    to have that kind of turnover, just by affecting our privacy
    some more..it is not, imho, and some analysis of the culprit
    is sorely lacking here.. it is by this kind of journalism in the
    big media that we get misinformed..
     
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  16. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
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    The more I read/listen to BBC news the more I see them go around the issues, very rarely actually analysing the thing itself, and while beating about the bush they make their own little agenda stick out...

    And the worst things in all this is - from the big ones, they seem to be the least crappy, at least of the English speaking news media...

    Blimey...
     
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  17. nodnar

    nodnar MDL Addicted

    Oct 15, 2011
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    yup. first thing in the morning, i go to bbc news..
    and like you say, i know they have their own crappy
    agenda too, it is just the lesser of all the evils ..
    what i find here in holland presented as news is just
    an insult to my intelligence..i get tempted to use
    teletext, without commercials, instead..
    .;)
     
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  18. redroad

    redroad MDL Guru

    Dec 2, 2011
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    #18 redroad, Nov 21, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 20, 2017
    Old school Tracking skills are quite use full in finding the truth even if it is obscured by lies



    [​IMG]
     
  19. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

    Oct 21, 2009
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    Let the poor foxy LIVEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!! :D
     
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  20. redroad

    redroad MDL Guru

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    #20 redroad, Nov 22, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2012
    Something you may or may not know :D

    Fox medicine

    Also Tracking something does not mean you want to kill it, you just may want to learn it's truth (medicine) to better understand the world you live in. In this case oligarchy's. http://thedailybanter.com/2012/05/e...eltsins-russia-to-aubrey-mcclendons-oklahoma/