The right to be forgotten...

Discussion in 'Serious Discussion' started by gorski, Jan 24, 2012.

  1. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    The problem is that anything is or becomes connected which each other. In the past we had independent communication 'systems'.

    A simple physical letter and the landline for phone calls.

    Then (communication) satellites came. To me the key technologies are different satellites!!!

    So we’ve got mobile GSM network (mobile phone). We’ve got cable TV, satellite TV.
    Then the internet which had to be dialed up (into landline) with a modem.
    Then ADSL came, cable broadband came, satellite upload came. WLAN spots came. With it the different kind of servers, their clients (e-mail and so on....)

    Cable transports TV broadcasts and internet data. With it phone voice ‘data’. Also the landline does transport TV streams, phone voice data and internet data.
    So the GSM / 3G /4G do. In between are satellites and oversea cables….anything is interconnected.

    The question is don’t I have the right to have a communication which is really private?
    And why do govt have the need to collect data at all? Isn’t that manner not doubtful?

    To me personally the govt themselves are a greater PITA than a potential theorist concerning freedom and democracy.

    Theorists might use the internet to plan an assault, but in the past they could have done that by using a simple landline phone also.

    The govts have the money, the tech to collect data and to store them. This means power. Power against citizens.

    And what had been done in the past for ‘our’ internet security? How old for instance is the HTTPS protocol ? Browser option regarding encryption? SSL / TLS? How old is the security section of the browsers already??
    Nobody in fact is interested in to have new security technologies!!! And if one is, then the one becomes suspicious!

    Who knows what a VPN is? Who knows the Tor network?
    How is the internet administrated and from which nations?

    The Asian make cheap hardware, the US monopolists Google / M$ and crapple make operating systems. DNS and domain registrations without US authorities???? Possible???
    Who seizes servers else than the US?

    Where is the EU? And why don’t they care about a healthy balance of internet administration power????

    Questions which need to have an answer…..and most ‘common’ citizens aren't even aware of the situation.
    The balance of forces concerning communication technology is heavily disturbed…

    These are my concerns. I am not afraid of an terror assault. This attribute belongs rather to the US.
    I want back my freedom. :)
     
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  2. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    So, the cause is systemic, it's called Capitalism...:rolleyes::busted_blue::yeahyeah:
     
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  3. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    Sorry, you misunderstood: I am a little bit deeper and harsher critic than cosmetics...:biggrin::D:biggrin:
     
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  4. redroad

    redroad MDL Guru

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    #44 redroad, Jul 18, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2013
    @acrsn
    Yep they are to blame and here's why when the repeal of the Glass–Steagall Act happened after being under assault through lobbying for many years by the mega banks .. The firewall which was put into place by Glass-Steagall to seperate commercial banking from securities underwriting and dealing was breached by the repeal .. The risks of securities dealing was now put on The American Tax payer .. In fact those that had done all the right things including voting for a government they believed to be "the right one" and then in the fall of 2008, when the stock market crashed and the economy seemed to melt overnight, Americans lost trillions in their investments; and for the average American, their investments were their hard-earned retirement savings. Most workers and retirees lost about a third of what they had put away for retirement .. Obama wasn't even president yet :rolleyes: .. The Banks bought this sway/power in Washington in every branch of government including the Judicial .. Maybe your one who feels that the banking industry doesn't need to be regulated :dunno: All I know is when they are not regulated they have consistently left a mess of which the American taxpayer was left picking up the tab .. Having Banks that are "too big to fail" only holds the average taxpayer hostage ..

    Now let's move on to Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission where corporations were deemed "people" and their deep pockets were allowed to sway our election process :rolleyes:

    Even when we change laws or put agencies like "The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau" into place in 2011 it has taken Congress all this time to allow the President's appointee (someone to run it) to be put in place .. Wall Street lobbyists are responsible for that

    Yeah I Blame the friggin Banks !!
     
  5. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

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    You have to take into consideration that the banks, or anyone in particular who is looking at their bottom line, will try to push the limits of what they can and cannot do. The question is why are they allowed to do what they want to do ? You can't blame the politicians, they have always been a generally backward and underhanded lot more akin to lawyers than to morally upright citizens. The problem I think is the degradation of society. Our boundaries have been pushed so far that we seem to nonchalantly tolerate an ever increasing amount of bulls**t. Why this is happening seems to be multifaceted. Maybe we have an ever increasing ignorant society or maybe we are an easily distracted society and there are many distractions ! Then there is the possibility that maybe we have become so desensitized by the media overload that we no longer care what happens.
     
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  6. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    #46 Yen, Jul 19, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2013


    It depends where you relate to. I have own terms.
    It is systemic yes, but it’s called ego, which is a false identification of the ‘self’.
    The ego is always lacking of something because of an own separate identity and hence it creates greed.
    But I don’t go here (again) into spiritual aspects.

    So I use here the term imperialism.

    Snowden uncovered something. It concerns a fundamental human right, the right of privacy and freedom.
    A keystone of democracy!!!
    The financial crisis and the banks and now the attack on fundamental rights.
    Both are degenerations of egos, but the latter is far more serious.
    The fault of the financial crisis banks or govt or both, it dosn't matter, any time involved are govts.

    It is really serious it is the most serious thing that has happened in the world since I was born. I am angry and I am sad.
    Yesterday evening I watched a TV talk. The Germans are really concerned what has happened, whilst the US press say we are kids and are overacting.

    Do we really have to ask that if Snowden goes to the wrong places the US authorities are going to kill him? Yes we have to!!! That far we came already!! We have to be worried that the US would kill him!!! Is this still democracy?

    The degeneration of the internet: To the US monopolies / govt a user is either a consumer or a security risk, nothing else. There is actually no more difference between the US monopolies and the US govt. They work hand in hand. A Facebook employee went to the NSA and a NSA employee came to Google. They interact.
    There is no more separation of govt and industry.

    I guess I will open a new topic.
    How can we protect ourselves, our privacy. This would fit to MDL.
    There are countless measures which can be applied to have more privacy. Anybody here should post what he uses and how it works.

    ATM it is the only thing one can do. Anything else belongs to the politicians. I myself have no confidence that they are able to, though. I hope I am wrong. Political apathy is just another thing that endangers democracy.

    To give input already. Inform about the Tor network anonymous browsing and PGP (pretty good privacy) for encryption of messages.

    There ARE measures against us, they spy, they store, they profile, everyone is affected, wake up, people! They store ANYthing forever if they would have the capacity to do it. The first time the US govt. is really pi$$ing me off (the BND, too).... and most do forget the British secret sevice is even worse! I have to be careful not to lose my countenance....:):biggrin:

    The US spends billions for to fight against terrorism and half of the world's individuals are deprived of their privacy because of that. Statistically each year 25 US citizens get killed by theorists, but 30000 due to own weapons!!! They are insane!
    (Please don't get me wrong I do not talk about US citizens, I talk about govt and monopolies and secret services)... :hug2:
     
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  7. redroad

    redroad MDL Guru

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    #47 redroad, Jul 19, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2013
    @acrsn First let me point out I am no fan of Bill Clinton and one reason for that was his position on Glass-Steagall .. and Second I am a Independent , no party affiliation .. Both parties are corrupt as far as I'm concerned .. Are all politicians corrupt ? no I don't believe so .. You will get no argument from me with regard to the lack of character of most of our elected officials however there are some who are beyond reproach and have chosen to truly represent their constituents .. I've been voting for 45 years and to your point I've never felt more disenfranchised .. But will I quit voting ? Never !! :starwars:

    One more thing on corporations and how they have infiltrated our legislative process .. Organizations like Alec are how corporations now shape/influence our policy/legislation .. Read the list of corporate members @ the link for a glimpse into how far reaching this corruption goes ..
     
  8. redroad

    redroad MDL Guru

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    For the record one thing that breeds eventual corruption and systemic entrenchment of power in the U.S. government is individuals who are appointed not elected into positions with no term limit .. Our current director of the NSA is one of those examples ..

    @Yen good idea on the new thread and on U.S. citizens .. Never felt you were anti redroad (U.S. citizen) :hug2:
     
  9. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    Yen, that's mythologically mystical metaphysics and I am no metaphysician, sorry...:D

    I am historically (Geschichte, not Historie) minded...:cool:
     
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  10. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    Sure, no prob, we agree both with that it is systemic... :D


    I would say Captalism is not bad per se, well it depends on what you actually mean with capitalism. But I think capitalism does not 'include' the right to violate privacy / freedom by recording any personal data. Or do you think Capitalism and privacy cannot coexist? I'd say I am 'capitalistic' since I live in a capitalistic society and follow their rules, and you? ...imperialism assumes to want to have a sort of empire, means some anti-democratic ideas already....this fits perfectly to google, M$, apple and the NSA / US govt.

    If you mean Capitalism=greed and satisfying greed at all cost then I agree with you...:biggrin:


    :hug2:
     
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  11. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    #51 gorski, Jul 19, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2013
    (OP)
    I may live in Italy but I am no Italian, I assure you... :rolleyes: :D

    Chomsky says something like "There is no democracy in corporations/businesses - these are private fiefdoms/dictatorships!". How do you think this is possible in a "true democracy"?!?:eek::confused: Or do you still really think that this is just a bad apple in an otherwise healthy orchard?!? :rolleyes::worthy:

    (Was that really difficult? :D There... :D )
     
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  12. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    Your posts are sometimes....complicated.......:)

    And why is there no? Democracy means people rule, not the govt, not the monopolies, not one ego, not one institution...

    The point was if it is related to capitalism or not....a true democracy actually does not exist in a world of egos.
    Dunno what there should be mythologically mystical metaphysics.
    Have a look at your family and tell me you never behave like a dictator educating your kids...:D:)..capitalist or not....but you have an ego...;)
    Capitalism per se in not bad...greed and hate are, though...
     
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  13. GTK48

    GTK48 MDL Senior Member

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    This is nothing new. Politicians through the ages have acted in this manner.
     
  14. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    Yen: Capitalism is based on ideas of dominance and exploitation. There's nothing "good" about that, quite the opposite can easily be proven from tons of historical evidence and by examining its internal dynamics!

    Therefore, it is innately faulty! Structurally evil, if you wish... Its basis is the market - but it is innately irrational, as we know...

    So, my post is quite simple and rational, transparent, coherent and non-mystical.

    Yours, on the other hand...:rolleyes::D
     
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  15. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

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    It's evil if you are standing on the wrong side of it.
     
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  16. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    There is no "right side" inside Capitalism. Whichever way you turn it it's alienating...

    And on the outside you can indeed go worse or better...
     
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  17. R29k

    R29k MDL GLaDOS

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    The wrong side is outside, no $$ there :p
     
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  18. gorski

    gorski MDL Guru

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    #58 gorski, Jul 20, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2013
    (OP)
    www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23374867 - see, the corps are our biggest friends and allies...:rolleyes::D:biggrin::worthy::yeahyeah:

    (Oh, dear...:p)

    P.S. Of course, there is a less s**tty side in Capitalism, where they use better politics to go against innately irrational and nasty markets ("Nature red in tooth and claw" alleged "natural" human behaviour), to make it not as bad as when there is no Social Democracy - but it's still s**tty and within this nasty beast that eventually can go back to the neo-con/neo-lib abomination of communal life...
     
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  19. Yen

    Yen Admin
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    #59 Yen, Jul 20, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2013
    There is no real barrier between property and Capital. Attribute of capitalism is to have private properties.
    I have a problem to say : Capitalism is evil.
    One who is saying that is not taking responsibility for own actions. Do you compare the prices when you buy stuff?
    Do you ask your boss for more money if you think you have 'deserved it'?
    Are you happy to buy stuff?
    So are you believing that you grow yourself when identified with more and more objects? With the feeling to 'own' them?
    Why has Sozialism failed?


    To be social means to be an active part that there is no accumulation and imbalance. The wrong idea to grow with the amount of the accumulated objects is the evil but not of capitalism, it's the evil of humankind. One can only be social when knowing that one does not grow when accumulate stuff.

    Why does the NSA have the need to store data? They do, because of the same evil. They store (accumulate data) with the intention to know something about others. They do because they feel small, incomplete, vulnerable. They have the impression to lose something if the don't do it.
    Actually the NSA is not really convinced that the US is 'the great nation'. Their motivation comes from the feeling of vulnerability, smallness, and incompleteness. These they want to compensate with the seemingly control of 'others'.

    It is always the same. A classic mechanism of a dictatorship. Snowden did the most democratic thing he could! To uncover it...
     
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  20. redroad

    redroad MDL Guru

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    #60 redroad, Jul 20, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2013
    Snowden had other choices .. He could have challenged the constitutionality of the NSA's actions from within the U.S. and the high profile trial which would have emerged would have done more to change the broad and behind closed doors interpretation of the law would have been exposed .. Forcing a change .. As it is an opportunity was missed and because of the path he chose I must question his motives especially after looking at the itinerary he chose to seek asylum .. That being said I am pleased it is out in the open ..

    There has to be public and judicial push back on "Executive privilege" or nothing will change with regard to this clear over reach ..