Discussion in 'MDL Projects and Applications' started by Phazor, Dec 28, 2010.
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The MDL team has reacted on this. He has got a PM and a record / infraction at his UP.
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The thing is just that i am IMMENSELY pissed off.
And that what he did has so many consequences that cant be reversed anymore. The damage he has done with this one action is considerable and affects like ten different things at once.
Also, if in our forum (where i administrate) somebody showed even a fraction of this kind of blatant disrespect towards another member (we tend to stick together) his acc and IP would be banned faster than he could say 'kicked'.
So perhaps i just live by other standards.
Although it also seems pretty common-sense that somebody like that guy has no business in a place which lives from the contribs of its members.
I am also sick, full of meds, feel like crap, and thats definitely the most inauspicious time to tick me off.
I would like to, but i dont know if i can just look past all that happened, especially when the staff of this forum wouldnt even back me up. (After all ive done for this place.)
I can take a few days off and see how i feel about it and what the staff has to say then...
I've backed you up but then again I too am a very sensitive person this is why I said you might consider that we are all growing and that significant steps have been taken to prevent this from happening again even though you state clearly what he has done is irreversible. I understand that!
The one thing we don't want these bad times to do is divide and conquer us as a site which is what such competition and disrespect can do and is trying to do with you leaving IMHO
I mean you didn't do anything nor did team MDL right? Just Hell in his massive and perhaps without consideration of you mistake
I don't want you to come off your feelings just perhaps think bigger that we are acknowledging what has transpired and are updating our mental "database" of allowed or not behaviors so even though this sucks for you and perhaps potentially others this incident is taking MDL to higher level that I'd hope you'd want to still resonate with
We are growing and learning don't you want to learn, grow and evolve with us even when bad things happen?
IMO we dont need to grow and evolve.
Like you said, we didnt do anything wrong.
What we do need to do is stick together, back each other up against people who harm us, and that means if someone knowingly and arbitrarily pees on the carpet he will be asked to leave the party.
Its as simple as that. Or would you like to keep such people around?
(And please dont bring the "we-all-make-mistakes" argument now, i realize that, but there is a hell of a difference between screwing up by accident and f**king somebody over willfully and full-knowingly because i want to and because i couldnt care less for the consequences...)
PS: Im out for now. Will check back in a couple of days. Hope the MDL staff makes the right decision. So long...
Just giving some variables for how to take this...lol
Well at least we know how you feel
Phazor, MDL staff already made their decision, and even if I don't like it, I have to accept it.... just like you !!
I really hope to see you here at MDL for a long time being, cause i'd really hate to see VALUABLE ppl leave MDL for things like this one...
Childlish behavior, both for good reasons, or just for EGO, has always happened, happens, and will happen, whatever you do... sorry
...but you have also to understand that "YOUR P.O.V." is just "YOUR P.O.V." and it's not "THE ABSOLUTE P.O.V." ...
I always thought (and stil I do) that Forums like this one have in their primary objective the "sharing knowledge" concept...
so... just to make an example..(that could be a different P.O.V.)... where was your "sharing knowledge concept" when you solved the
problem for the consistent error that ppl talked about so much in the past months ?
Was it really so hard to use a PM to other DEVs that was working in other apps involving te same error to let them know that it coul
be avoided using a modified KMS ?
Do you really think that this behavior means to be respectful with other DEVs of the same Community ?
WE ALL (at least, ppl who frequently read MDL forum...) know that credit to that solution had to be done to PHAZOR.
WE ALL understand that HELL did a big mistake when he posted yor uncompressed code, but you have to admit that it's also for the
same reason that he was already crediting someoneelse for that code...
WE ALL see, also, that HELL's intention was to help another DEV to solve a problem with his apps and the activation of Office...
I DO NOT agree, on the contrary, with you fear about M$ using that specific uncompressed code by HELL to ban some PID...
...com'on, dude, if M$ really is reading here... do you really think that they couldn't decompile it by themselves ?!?
...and the same thing is for someoneelse that could recompile it and distributing elsewhere with some "unsolicited gift" in it...
When ppl do not D/L stuff from MDL, THEY KNOW that such a gift could be added to the original thing, so it's just their fault,
and it's not your/our problem...
As you can see, ppl could also have a different P.O.V., and it's maybe an 'extreme' P.O.V. that you don't agree, but it exist...
(to be honest, even I do not agree with everything that I wrote... I was just trying to make an extreme and maybe rude example,
I hope an help to let you understand that's not so easy for Admin and Moderator to handle accident similar to this one...)
That done, I really hope that your sick will be better very soon, and that your upset feeling could be ASAP as good as it was on
January, whwn you spent so much time into that darn PID/CMID/KMS labyrinth...
CU soon, Phazor
a supporter of MDL Community
Your post contains some of the thoughts we had when discussing about what measure is the right one.
And you are right, we already have made our decision (the admins).
Usually I do not reply since the MDL team doesn’t need to justify an decision that has been made already.
I’m replying, because this never happened before to MDL in that way and I am respecting Phazor’s work.
To denounce letsgoawayhell (naming and shaming), to record what he did (by giving an infraction) is far more a 'punishment' than to ban him. He easily could re-register again, whereas our measures to 'punish' what he did are much more reasonable and effective.
-he has lost this custom title
-he has a record at his user Profile
-he cannot use any link at the signature anymore.
Everybody knows what he did and will it the next 6 months by reading his UP.
Ancestor(v) and I had chatted a long time how to handle this situation. We are convinced that letsgoawayhell was not aware about the consequences.
I am convinced that his original intention was to help others...
Anyway I do not start to discuss about it again. Things that happened cannot be reversed even if you wish they have to, we and especially you Phazor need to accept that.
He has decompiled Phazor's app without his permission.
The MDL team has reacted on this.
Like i said, i accept whatever decision they make. No problem at all.
Whether i can actually live with (as in tolerate) that decision is a different matter.
And so i have to make a decision too.
(BTW, i reply to this post only because i dont want you to think that i ignore you. Also to clear a few things up while im at it. But generally i have really had enough of this.)
Im afraid i wont be able to accommodate you.
An 'infraction' for conduct such as he displayed is not conform to my idea of friendship and sticking together.
I would have supported each and every one of you if the situation were reversed.
And i mean that literally, because if this had happened to any of you in our forum, where i am co-admin, the person in question would have been gone faster than he could have said 'banned'.
But, thats me and my place. Doesnt count here.
I realize that.
But absolute or not, to me it happens to be the one that counts.
(Thats probably why its called 'my POV'. I hope you wont hold it against me.)
Yeah, where-oh-where was it...
I suppose doing the work to find the solution at all, and then sharing the solution in form of an application so people can profit from the work i did for them doesnt count? Wasnt good enough?
I must say i resent the way in which this question has been asked. Because it suggests that everyone who devises something for this place without handing out the precise specs for everything involved is a bad and asocial person who therefore deserves that it is simply taken from them whether they like it or not.
Sharing principle or not, i am under no obligation to share what i dont want to share, no matter for what reason. The fact that i contribute and share at all, and continuously so, by developing and offering usable solutions should be good enough for any halfways grateful person. If this kind of attitude is unacceptable at MDL then a note in the Rules/FAQ might be in order. Something like "Please note that if you are nice enough to support this forum with any contributions, and you dont voluntarily hand over every last detail of your contributions, you will be treated like a harmful element. As a consequence your contributions will be taken apart, analyzed, and all concepts involved will be made public whether you like it or not. The member responsible for exposing your methods will be applauded and you will be ostracized for your troubles."
That should about do it. Whether you realize it or not, but this describes the current situation pretty well.
Counter-question: Was it really so hard to use LocalHost?
Would it have killed anyone to wait a few weeks for 64bit support?
As can be seen in the respective threads, i originally DID intend to share the whole procedure after i had found the solution. Just as i shared everything else so far. I also offered to share the PID-less Host with all other devs when i still thought that a null string is failsafe and that it cannot be countered by Microsoft without a great deal of changes to the KMS Activation Module. But when it turned out that i spoke to soon i changed my mind because i realized that it is better for all involved if this does not hit the public. And i do have that right, dont i? After all i cannot expect say Cody from keeping it from his co-author. And you all know how this works. The more people involved, the more you can count on it that very soon the whole world will know about it. Everyone will claim that it wasnt them who passed on the info but the damage will be done regardless. Been there, saw it many times.
Well, actually now that you mention it i must say that this was pretty darn unfair of me. What the hell was i thinking? I therefore apologize for my unworthy behaviour towards my fellow devs, and, while on the subject, take the opportunity to request for the good of the community a complete copy of Dazs Loader sourcecode, including and especially the confidential encryption algorithm. Furthermore i request the full sourcecode and all involved files of Codys OfficeTool and all other KMS based apps developed at MDL along with full documentation of every part. In the highly unlikely event that i wont be accommodated (after all we share everything here) i will have no other options but to reverse the apps in question and thereby MAKE their authors share what they refuse to hand out voluntarily. Then i will post the whole stuff in various forums to do something good for my Thanks counters.
I mean thats how we do things around here now, not? You know, Borg Style? Your stuff will be assimilated, resistance is futile?
And why not? The worst thing i have to fear is getting an 'infraction'. Im a tough guy, i can live with that. It will all blow over eventually...
I never said they would. Please read more carefully. What i said was that i thought it possible that they eventually blacklist the PID originally in the exe of ZWTs Host. And that obviously has nothing to do with my or anyones app, packed or unpacked. After all ZWTs host exists primarily as a standalone.
The point is that if they had opted to blacklist the PID used in ZWTs Host then it would have taken me but 2 minutes to provide a fix for everyone, thanks to the fact that nobody was aware of the fact that it can simply be swapped for a new one. But that option has been destroyed now. Because now that the info has been spread all around the world (and practically shoved right in Microsofts face) they certainly wont settle for a simple PID blacklisting anymore. On the contrary, now they will take much more serious measures for sure. In other words that door i tried to keep open for the KMS users is now closed for good. All that has been accomplished is that the countermeasures, if/when taken, will be even more severe.
Well sure, but what reason with regards to FixMe would they have had to do so? Was it saying anywhere 'Look, i swap PIDs'? Or anything else that could have gathered their interest in that specific part of the app? You see your problem is that you are talking from an 'after the fact' POV. You know what FixMe does. But that wasnt known before. FixMe wasnt advertised as a new exploit, but as a fix for problems with an error. So what interest could Microsoft possibly have had in that specific part of the app from a countermeasures point of view?
Besides, what has that got to with anything? I mean this is not supposed to be a justification for basically volunteering the info to them, is it? Daz is aware of the fact that Microsoft could decompile his app in no time too. Why do you think he keeps his encryption method confident anyway then? Perhaps because he simply tries to protect his method (and thereby the users) as good as he is able to?
Again, what has that got to do with anything?
Just because they could add malware either way you dont voluntarily hand them the entire source on a silver platter just to make it even easier for them? Just to make it possible for even the most unexperienced kid to pack some s**t into the ORIGINAL package?
No offense, but some of these arguments are almost too hard to believe...
But enough of the explaining and justifying. This has already gotten way longer than i intended again. After all im not the one who did anything wrong and thus i consider myself through with explaining myself. @All: Please refrain from posting any further comments. Its pointless and will lead to nothing anyway. And i dont want to be impolite by not responding to your messages.
Staff: Sorry, i dont think that i can live with your decision. Merely giving him an infraction for what he did doesnt give me the feeling that you really care to deal with such things as the situation would require, even if you define 'required' only by common sense. (Meaning let alone forum-rules or guidelines, which he broke too.) It also gives me the feeling that you would rather see a long-time contributor walking than acting appropriately. And that doesnt exactly hint at appreciation for the people who spend hours and hours of their limited free time to do the often most boring and repetetive work only to make your forum an interesting and useful place. Im afraid that if you cant bring yourselves to reconsider this, and give me some sign that people like him will be dealt with accordingly at MDL, our relationship has ended. (I know, admin-proud can be a real pain in the ass so i dont expect too much here. Your forum, your decision. Make it a good one.)
I'm with you, Phazor!
Hell was wrong for what he did on MANY levels - as has been stated already.
Should he be banned? IMHO - YES.
His attitude and demeanor DO NOT FIT HERE AT MDL!
I understand you're sick (I'm sorry and hope you get well SOON!!!), and that the meds and this craptastic happening of late has you in a funk. Rightfully so.
I am with you 100%.
However, if every time someone pissed me off I didn't just take a deep breath and just IGNORE THE IGNORANT, I'd be in prison for killing stupid people!
I hope you take a few days off, get well, and come back to us.
Your work is invaluable here. I believe most if not all people here would agree!!!
If you choose to leave us... THANKS FOR ALL OF YOUR HARD WORK!!!
And, of course, GET WELL SOON!!!
I would have used ASPack/PECompact or something similar on the modified KMS Emulator, just say'n.
I will keep it short this time.
Actually my decision to stay away from this place had already been made. But, i want to be fair. I realize that my impaired health, the meds, and the fact that i havent had a decent night of sleep in weeks, is screwing with my psyche. It makes me aggressive, sarcastic and easy to provoke, which is why i am willing to entertain the hypothesis that i might in fact be overreacting because my emotional state has me misinterpreting a thing or two.
I therefore have 4 questions for the administration. A simple answer will do just fine.
1) Why was this event allowed to unfold at all, i.o.w. why didnt the administration of MDL step in and stop it immediately?
Why did i have to come and complain before somebody reacted to this at all?
2) It was known that i dont want FixMe to be public, therefore obvious that i am not going to applaud if somebody ransacks LocalHost and steals FixMe, same for publishing the unpacked files.
"I don't approve your trying to keep your tool unique by keeping things to yourself."
These were his own exact words and i would think they are pretty clear. What exactly makes you believe that he was not aware of the consequences?
3) Since this would, even if it were so, not negate the disrespect and the other consequences his conduct entailed, why should this be considered an argument in his favor?
Especially when there was no need to help any others because i already did. FixMe in LocalHost 32bit works fine and a 32/64bit version was on the way.
4) Timesurfer once gave DARKOR the permission to integrate his rearm concept into his app. He later revoked that permission, never mind the reasons now, i merely mean to point out that this has already been practiced in this form.
If i were to request, hypothetically, that my KMS Activator concept(s) be removed from any application also hosted and developed at MDL, would the staff see to it that my wishes are respected in case the person in question refused to comply?
Needless to say that this last question is of special importance to me so please answer it truthfully.
PS: Thanks Bosh and Zilog.
Bro I apologize with seeing Hell from the beginning taking your code even though you made statements to not use your code and be hijacking and disrespectful! But I was not aware of what was actually happening? I seriously did not see things as they we're actually happening. I would never let this happen again on my watch. But forgive me as i took immediate action in statements against his behavior before any mods/admins as I know what its like to feel like you do in this situation. My situation with Dark is now over but also made me feel uncomfortable since even though I was beginner I still was author of IR4/5 and wanted to re-claim Ir4/5 as my own works. Dark in time saw how I felt and returned my app to me in respect and appreciation for my efforts and in the most respectful and honorable way which I am still appreciating and totally honoring him in seeing what I was feeling and what had transgressed between us. I am in postponement with Dark and know very well he is great scriptor and excellent MDL helper and member. Like I said it was me that fought for your rights and feelings ongoingly both in public and in the mod lounge as I did this cause we're friends and cause I saw how you we're victimized and so forth. I blame myself fo this transgression and myself only. Please forgive me for being to allowing and tolerant I did not know what I was doing as I am just human and in all honestly too nice I think Hell is gone but that doesn't fix this error and unjust behavior towards you. Again I'm sorry. I think that this is in our imperfectness an opportunity to grow and learn that this inappropriate behavior of Hell's is something that MDL and myself will be more attune to dealing with in an more immediate and stern action thus we wish to not have you and other dev's feels for one second that they are not safe to dev with people disrespecting them like what happened here
Please forgive me for my lack of experience with moderation as I tried my best as member and mod to give my all
I can testify that the administration here is not perfect but out of all sites and their admins I have never experienced so gracious and caring understanding and heartfelt govern-ship hence I mostly trust MDL/admins/mods in their actions and decisions.
I hope you can see we at MDL are only human and care and amongst all of us in our broad culturlayy diverse team we try so hard and care and give a damn more than any group around
All my respect and love brother
I am sorry you had to experience this whether sick or well
Your friend and co-member
I want to answer all of your questions truthfully as I always intent to do, to illustrate the matter on the part of the MDL team. I'm afraid this will be no short reply.
The MDL team firstly has been informed by Timesurfer's post 2nd APR, by posting that at our mod lounge. Before that date nobody has noticed about what has happened. I guess so because every other moderator would have posted that at the mod lounge if noticed about before already. Why not earlier? Because something was going on which doesn't happen many times.
The team is focusing primarily on the usual moderation stuff. And two issues have occurred at the same time and just before.
The w8 threads need to be moderated anytime, because a lot of rules are violated at this special topic.
And we had a major issue with the thanks system. People have reported to have lost thanks. If I notice about data loss I have to react immediately and any other issue is secondary. Also the team was busy with to figure what has happened.
Sort answer: It could unfold due to to lack of attention of the MDL team. And do not forget that the MDL team is a democracy. Which means we are collecting facts and opinions about an issue, before we act. I wanted to hear a programmers / developers opinion. This takes time since we are not every time together online.
At a dictatorship one could have acted immediately, yes. In your situation you could argue like an dictator, the MDL team cannot.
2) Simply to answer:
You are quoting one reply of him to justify your point of view about the whole issue. This is inappropriate IMHO.
When he started to post he was sure he is doing something right. No matter what anybody else would think about. The consequences we are talking about are happening when you do something wrong. So he cannot be aware of, because he is doing something right (in his opinion). He suddenly was confronted with trouble, with consequences. Only now he realized about that he did something wrong. He would still think he is doing right if nobody would have complained about. Then he apologized, has been meekly, noticed about that he did something wrong and has finally left MDL.
To understand that nobody is perfect. That he is from another country and culture with different opinions about.
Counterquestion: Why do humans try to understand / to deal with the faults of others at all?
The issue TS / darkor also caused a lot of discussions at our mod lounge. We have developers and programmers in our team and members that aren't. To be honest the opinions of our developers and 'the others' are often far away regarding such issues. Because a developers point of view is related to how somebody develops an app at all. (Effort, secrets, pride, 'copyright', willing to share something). To the 'others' these things are not familiar, because they never are experienced by them so far.
Of course your wishes would be respected as well, by our developers even more. The goal of that issue had been to convince / make darkor to remove TS's code. You cannot just claim do it and he will, you need to convince him that he will, to be sure by yourself that he really cooperates. The discussion about at the lounge was primarily about if team members should be actively involved, or if TS has to PM him himself to achieve his removal. Finally the latter has been successful.
The team would take your wish seriously and to discuss about (support) how it could be achieved. In no way different to TS / darkor issue.
I would like to add why I think our measures against letsgoawayhell were right. We already know that that issue came delayed to the MDL team. We needed to hear opinions, to collect facts, have been busy with data loss. At the day we were able to determine what has to be done, we already knew that he has stopped to argue, that he obviously will leave MDL, because he felt uncomfortable realizing now what he has done. This seems to have passed by at you since you were more than upset. You have been that much busy with yourself, not realizing what's about letsgoawayhell already.
This fact made me to stay away from any personal PM to you.
I agree with you, to ban him would have been the appropriate measure if he would have continued to state to be right what he has done and would have simply continued to disrespect you.
His only reasonable action he could make at his situation is to say sorry and to leave MDL by himself and not because he would have been banned.
IMHO to ban a member is a good way to get rid of spammer, but not to handle your issue. To ban means not to be ready or able to deal with the issue.
The links have been removed at his sig, his (honor) to have a custom user title has been revoked and he has got an infraction. The MDL rules are about what a member can do / must not do, not about how it will be punished.
An infraction only?
What is an infraction at vbulletin? You'll get a PM with the subject of it and you'll get an record at your UP. AT every post everybody will see now that you have got one and everybody can read why. When banned, your account is simply banned. Nobody remembers why after some time. So an infraction basically is like to be in the pillory.
A few last words.
I of course cannot and never will react on an blackmailing attempt.(Either...or I'll leave MDL) If I do I could leave the team, an admin must not be susceptible to blackmail.
I have made the right decision already.
Personally I wish that you would stay at MDL. I also would wish that a fantastic thing, humans are able to, will start at you (in your heart)...to start to forgive.
Your app is still one of the greatest at MDL, no matter what has happened. The MDL members know you and are respecting your work.
First let me say thanks for your reply.
I realize now that the problem is, as so often, communication.
Things have been missed and misinterpreted, and i would be glad to point out these parts.
But i will do so only if you really want to hear it. Otherwise it would be pointless.
I say this because right now im not sure where to put you with regards to this.
I want to, my PM box is open. It can be only a positive learning effect to us all.
My reply is going to be a little longer as well, so i think its better i do it with a fresh mind after getting some sleep. (Or at least trying to.)
See you then.
PS: Thanks System seems to be on the fritz. Cant thank TS for his post.