by the way i found this very interesting article What First Responders Don’t Know About Fiery Electric Vehicles https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...t-first-responders-don-t-know-about-fiery-evs
True re. charging for flat dwellers and this is where the state comes in - see, for instance, Norway... Untrue re. flammability - you can see the FACTS above, whereby ICE are way more flammable... So, myths for the gullible, really...
I figure I'll post this now, just to provide some facts about Lithium: https://www.reddit.com/r/chemistry/comments/7tsw2s/storing_lithium_metal/
lobo says lobo stores shim lithium in one of them daily pill dispensers maybe lobo should keep shis pills in bottle from pharmacy
Perhaps some facts would help, my dear Conservative BSers, to clear-up the s**t from your brains the ICE industry deposited there and you just love to wallow in it, since it's "familiar": FIRE HAZARD “You’re driving a bomb on wheels!” I’ve gotten this basic statement a few times since I started my channel, and I hate to break it to you, but every car on the road is a bomb on wheels. Gasoline isn’t exactly fire friendly. The biggest problem with the “EVs catch on fire” myth is that it’s being perpetuated by the media because it’s sensational. It’s newsworthy because Tesla cars and other EVs are still rare, and events like the Samsung Galaxy exploding batteries didn’t help matters. When one catches on fire it’s a news event, but when a gasoline car catches on fire it barely gets a mention ... and only then if it’s blocking traffic. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has stated that the risk of fire on: “Lithium ion battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels.” There’s a car fire in the U.S. about every 1-3 minutes, which totals about 174,000 vehicle fires a year. With there being so many fewer EVs on the roads, it looks like there's virtually no fires in comparison. From a CNN Money article: “Tesla claims that gasoline powered cars are about 11 times more likely to catch fire than a Tesla. It says the best comparison is fires per 1 billion miles driven. It says the 300,000 Teslas on the road have been driven a total of 7.5 billion miles, and about 40 fires have been reported. That works out to five fires for every billion miles traveled, compared to a rate of 55 fires per billion miles traveled in gasoline cars.” It’s still very early, so in time we’ll get better data around the fire risk, but it’s been grossly overstated in the media up to now and blown out of proportion. Clue: from 13.00 minutes... So, rightbackatcha!!!
Some can't see past the pink on their nose..... The issue is not the fact that an ev or an ice can catch on fire, but more to the point that you can not extinguish a lithium-ion battery fire like you could a car with petrol Edit: Corrected from lithium to lithium-ion (as per suggestion by Yen)
Twice Bat sawed people try to put out their VW Slug-Bug fires with a garden hose while him was running towards them screaming STOP
Speaking about lithium..... When we speak about a metal (and we actually speak out the element lithium) we mostly mean the ion, though. Actually never the element. (For instance speaking about calcium and magnesium we actually mean their ions Ca2+ and Mg2+) So it is the lithium-Ion-battery discovery and replacement of the lithium metal battery that was responsible for the breakthrough and success of the "lithium batteries".... When we think about dangers of lithium-ion-batteries the chemical attributes of elementary lithium metal don't matter since it's not present. Current technology is for instance lithium-graphite intercalation (active negative). The electrochemical balance is without elementary lithium (only ions are moving): negative electrode: LixCn <----> xLi+ + xe- + Cn positive electrode: Li1-xMO2 + xe- + xLi+ <---> LiMO2 (M can be Cobalt) From left to right: discharge. From right to left: charge (Sorry cannot write it correctly, forums soft isn't made for Chemistry)... Speaking of lithium-ion-batteries the best extinguishing agent is still water/ water based foam. What burns are plastics and the graphite. It is not a metal-fire! EVs don't use lithium-metal-batteries. Yeah Li+ is known to act against some forms of depression. (The mechanism is still unknown, though) But you need to have an exact and monitored blood-Li+-level....controlled by your doc....
@boyonthebus: That's really cool. I like chemistry, although I'm just a hobbyist. So far, I've watched quite a few videos on the subject. I started with NileRed, then Codys' lab, NurdRage and ChemPlayer when they were still available on Youtube. ChemPlayer is on BitChute, if you still want to watch their videos. But I digress... Another risk that the above mentioned article brings to light are the high voltage lines in an EV. There's talk of those voltages being cranked up to 1.2KV. If that's the case, then you'd be putting water onto an electrical fire, which can be quite dangerous.
Li-Ion battery fires are pretty nasty. They're very hot and difficult to extinguish. A defect or physical damage can cause one to ignite spontaneously. We've been dealing with that kind of thing for a while having these types of batteries in just about every consumer device that has one. Gasoline fires are nothing nothing to sneeze at either. Any time you're carrying a lot of energy in a small package there's risk. A lot of research effort goes into making batteries safer. There is actually a Li-Ion battery tech right now that's a lot less volatile and that's Lithium-iron phosphate. However the energy density is lower and they're more costly to produce so it's not an attractive option for electric cars. The high voltage is sort of a necessary evil with EVs. There's two ways to increase power electrically, higher voltage or higher current. Because of ohmic losses you quickly hit a wall with current so to get more power you need higher voltage. A smaller, lighter car needs less power and can get by on lower voltage. Personally I think that's the way to go with EVs, use more advanced materials and designs to make them lighter, solves all kinds of problems.
I am referring to a study made by the KIT. (Karlsruher Institut für Technologie; Institute of Technology, Karlsruhe). The article is available in German language only. 'Firefighting of lithium-ion-batteries'. Dunno if it makes much sense using google translator, but you can try: https://www.feuertrutz.de/forschung-brandbekaempfung-von-lithium-ionen-batterien/150/60110/ They also distinguished the so called primary lithium-metal-batteries from the so called secondary lithium-ion-batteries. One of the major conclusion was: The common used agents to fight metal-fire are only partly suitable to fight lithium-ion-battery fire. Whereas using a large amount of water is advantageous. (especially concerning Thermal Runaway) They also mentioned such a fire comes with a great amount of thermal energy. This is reasoned by the chemically bonded Oxygen (positive electrode) and the graphite (negative electrode). The minimum distance to the fire has to be considered with regard to potential formation of Hydrogen from the used water. Else all the precautions already made when a 'common' petrol car is burning. (Toxic gases etc etc...) (Especially HF formed from hexafluorophosphate IF used there) Remarkably they do not mention the state of charging % nor the electrical potential itself. It seems the chemical potential is more significant than the electrical when it comes to a fire...
@Yen: Perhaps this will help you make your point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphite_intercalation_compound
Yeah the chemical energy is the biggie, the electrical potential only provides the extra heat to get them really going. You can see see some great Li-Ion battery fires / explosions posted on youtube, really quite impressive. Also check out Alkali metal fires, pretty amazing as well. Ball of pure sodium in a pond is a good one. Lithium battery fires are a bear to put out while they're actually burning the stuff that feeds them. Once they go through the initial flare which doesn't last all that long they can be put out traditionally. Problem is when they're flaring they catch anything on fire near them. The smoke is really thick and nasty too. Actually have some experience with the most volatile of Li-Ion batteries, those used to power large model aircraft. Seen some big fires happen in crashes. Charging is also a risky time especially when using high rates like we do for the models.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/chemical-engineering/intercalation-compounds Most good scientific papers are not free of charge, though. Graphite intercalation compounds are interesting. I know roughly their theory (I am no inorganic Chemist lol)...and I know nothing practically. (Never saw one with my own eyes)...some should be quite colorful. I can simplify lithium-ion-batteries to a potential RED-OX pair. (A part is pure chemical another pure electrical). Also I can simplify petrol in a tank / air (oxygen) to a RED-OX pair. (All is chemical here, though) It's all about moving / exchanging electrons. (As per definition the anode is the place where oxidation happens Cathode: the place where reduction happens. Yes not a definition by charge (+ / -) !) And oxidation means electron release and reduction means electron uptake. The equation of a battery example see above. And burning petrol like: Hydrocarbons (The carbon gives away electrons and gets oxidized, the oxygen takes up the electrons and gets reduced to oxide....(CO2) The difference (battery / fossil fuel) is the 'separator' and the structure...the purpose is to moderate / control the exchange... The safety of a lithium-ion-battery strongly depends on the used separator. Also its mechanical attributes (Samsung Galaxy Note 7 battery issues). Also there is change of volumes (charged / discharged). At batteries we have the RED / OX pairs side by side. A petrol tank has the petrol and small atmosphere above (depending on fill level). There is direct contact of the RED / OX pair, but not much potential... The potential here soon gets more when there's a leak and more air can have contact... At batteries there can be a huge delay and an exponential increase of exothermic energy... We actually don't have here volatile substances such as petrol. Anyway we can have thermal runaway fed by shorting of more and more cells. Both fires can be compared, though. Distance to fire and time to observe the fire are different...(reigniting)... Statistically seen lithium-ion-batteries are safe. But with raising amount of used batteries there will be more fires of course. The later depends on the BMS battery management system... I wonder how big would be the fire using an equivalent of petrol (same capacity) at those large model aircrafts.. One of my personal favorites: Li to Cs....